Time to move to Separates

[lovinthehd]

What's marketing BS?

To say that ATI amps and other separates high quality amps (like Bryston) are better quality and more RELIABLE than MOST PLATE AMPS used in powered subs?

No more BS than some people saying that high-end separates components are higher quality than cheaper AVRs.

No more BS than some people saying that certain Auto Room Correction sounds better than others.

Perhaps a difference of opinion.

I took your other comment to be more about sound quality rather than build quality. There are well built plate amps, but there are relatively few of them (SpeakerPower particularly is what I'm thinking of). Then again some class D sub amps last for decades. There are expensive separates that don't particularly last long too. YMMV as to where the value/longevity works out for your purposes....

 

[highfigh]

What's marketing BS?

To say that ATI amps and other separates high quality amps (like Bryston) are better quality and more RELIABLE than MOST PLATE AMPS used in powered subs?

No more BS than some people saying that high-end separates components are higher quality than cheaper AVRs.

No more BS than some people saying that certain Auto Room Correction sounds better than others.

Perhaps a difference of opinion.

Why are you so defensive about those brands? I never mentioned them. I was referring to the output power specs from some brands and stores.

The claims from those plate amp manufacturers is a large part of the reason for my comments- nobody in their right mind would consider a plate amp better than Bryston or ATi.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The claims from those plate amp manufacturers is a large part of the reason for my comments- nobody in their right mind would consider a plate amp better than Bryston or ATi.

I saw the “BS” part, which can usually draw some defensive remarks.

I always use ATI and Bryston as examples of “High Quality Amp” mainly because of their 7YR and 20YR warranty. But, of course, there are many high quality amps.

My position on subwoofers have been the same for the past 26 years - I hate plate amps regardless of brands. I have always used separate amps for subs, like my ATI amps. The reason is the same as before: high quality separates amps are higher quality (build, reliability, warranty, measurements, etc.) than plate amps. I thought you were saying that my thinking here is “Marketing BS”.

 

[highfigh]

I saw the “BS” part, which can usually draw some defensive remarks.

I always use ATI and Bryston as examples of “High Quality Amp” mainly because of their 7YR and 20YR warranty. But, of course, there are many high quality amps.

My position on subwoofers have been the same for the past 26 years - I hate plate amps regardless of brands. I have always used separate amps for subs, like my ATI amps. The reason is the same as before: high quality separates amps are higher quality (build, reliability, warranty, measurements, etc.) than plate amps. I thought you were saying that my thinking here is “Marketing BS”.

Plate amps made it possible for people to easily buy a subwoofer and not need to think about it much, which was good because the early adopters had no idea what they were dealing with (sound). The earliest had speaker level connections and that works, but the quality was terrible- the Sony WA-50 was absolute crap and IIRC, the cabinet was made from 1/2: particle board with shiny black laminate. Oooh, shiny.

 

[Pogre]

Not trying to be pedantic, but.....

Infrasonic isn't something most speakers can do- some barely hit the second octave above our low frequency hearing threshold. However, used properly, sealed woofers do sound very good- as with other types of enclosures, the design needs to be correct. Trying to use power to make a sub do what it can't is like the saying about teaching a pig to sing- it sounds bad and it annoys the pig.

I always thought that the approach to get a sealed sub to have similar extension to its ported counterpart is heavy eq for the lower octaves = more power. That does add distortion but still mostly inaudible.

 

[Pogre]

So even if it were true that frequencies below 20Hz produce less ENERGY/FORCE (still waiting for that physics formula ), they could still require more power due to the inefficiency.

Yup. I think that's it right there.

 

[Pogre]

My position on subwoofers have been the same for the past 26 years - I hate plate amps regardless of brands. I have always used separate amps for subs, like my ATI amps. The reason is the same as before: high quality separates amps are higher quality (build, reliability, warranty, measurements, etc.) than plate amps. I thought you were saying that my thinking here is “Marketing BS”.

I have a combination of both. 2 powered subs and one passive. Both work very well for me. My powered subs have been at it for about 5 years now and still going strong. That could be partly due to the fact that I have multiples so they're not working as hard as say a single sub would.

I will say that my plate amps have never gotten hot. At most barely lukewarm.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have a combination of both. 2 powered subs and one passive. Both work very well for me. My powered subs have been at it for about 5 years now and still going strong. That could be partly due to the fact that I have multiples so they're not working as hard as say a single sub would.

I will say that my plate amps have never gotten hot. At most barely lukewarm.

I think MOST owners of internally-powered subs are very happy with them and may never experience any kind of issues.

I guess the same can be said about many things like AVR vs Separates.

Why do some people want a separate AVP + Amp, instead of getting an AVR or AVR + Amp? Do separates sound better than AVR or is it the thought of reliability or build quality?

There are some people (not rare) who have experienced problems with powered subs. I have friends who have had problems with their $2-3K powered sub amps. When something like this happens to you or family personally, you might not want to take the risk again.

Some people seem to be always talking about “going to separates”. Well, taking the amp OUTSIDE the AVP is the same as taking the amp OUTSIDE the subwoofer.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Plate amps made it possible for people to easily buy a subwoofer and not need to think about it much, which was good because the early adopters had no idea what they were dealing with (sound). The earliest had speaker level connections and that works, but the quality was terrible- the Sony WA-50 was absolute crap and IIRC, the cabinet was made from 1/2: particle board with shiny black laminate. Oooh, shiny.

My FIRST EVER sub (when I was a TOTAL NEWBY teenager) was an externally powered sub (NHT SW2P with the external 80 watt amp).

I treated the sub just like any other speaker. I power the speakers with an external amp. I also power the sub (which really is just another speaker for 20Hz-100Hz) with an external amp.

Like all things, there are always pros and cons. Everyone decides what is best for them, which is no different then people deciding to buy separates AVP + Amps instead of just AVR.

Is a powered sub really that much easier? I think for all of us here, it’s not about ease of use. It is about something else. Just like for all of us here, an AVR isn’t that much easier to use than a separate AVP + Amp.

Every time I talk about this topic, it seems like I am the ONLY person in the world who thinks that Passive Sub + Amp is similar topic as AVP + Amp.

 

[mono-bloc]

Talking of sub woofers has anyone got any thoughts / opinions on the newly introduced Wilson Loke Expected cost in OZ being something close to 14k https://www.stereonet.com/au/news/wilson-audio-lkee-active-subwoofer-launched https://hifipig.com/wilson-audio-loke-subwoofer/

 

[Pogre]

Talking of sub woofers has anyone got any thoughts / opinions on the newly introduced Wilson Loke Expected cost in OZ being something close to 14k https://www.stereonet.com/au/news/wilson-audio-lkee-active-subwoofer-launched https://hifipig.com/wilson-audio-loke-subwoofer/

I think $14k for a 500 watt 10" subwoofer is about as ridiculous as one could expect from Wilson Audio...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think $14k for a 500 watt 10" subwoofer is about as ridiculous as one could expect from Wilson Audio...

Well, the sub only costs $4K. But the Wilson plate amp costs $10K.

They don’t recommend using passive subs with your own amps because their amps are ESPECIALLY MADE to work specifically with their subs.

 

[Pogre]

Well, the sub only costs $4K. But the Wilson plate amp costs $10K.

They don’t recommend using passive subs with your own amps because their amps are ESPECIALLY MADE to work specifically with their subs.

Yeah, I read it's made of "X Material" and made to work with "TuneTot".

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, I read it's made of "X Material" and made to work with "TuneTot".

You actually read about them?

 

[highfigh]

I always thought that the approach to get a sealed sub to have similar extension to its ported counterpart is heavy eq for the lower octaves = more power. That does add distortion but still mostly inaudible.

If the driver's mass, compliance, suspension and motor assembly are designed for lower frequency operation, it can work but the box needs to be correct. They need to be used in the correct application, though- they're not gonna fill Lambeau Field.

 

[highfigh]

My FIRST EVER sub (when I was a TOTAL NEWBY teenager) was an externally powered sub (NHT SW2P with the external 80 watt amp).

I treated the sub just like any other speaker. I power the speakers with an external amp. I also power the sub (which really is just another speaker for 20Hz-100Hz) with an external amp.

Like all things, there are always pros and cons. Everyone decides what is best for them, which is no different then people deciding to buy separates AVP + Amps instead of just AVR.

Is a powered sub really that much easier? I think for all of us here, it’s not about ease of use. It is about something else. Just like for all of us here, an AVR isn’t that much easier to use than a separate AVP + Amp.

Every time I talk about this topic, it seems like I am the ONLY person in the world who thinks that Passive Sub + Amp is similar topic as AVP + Amp.

We're hobbyists, extremists and some are far more into audio than many engineers but one thing we are not is part of the mass market. That's who self-contained subs are made for and they reach that market very well.

 

[highfigh]

Well, the sub only costs $4K. But the Wilson plate amp costs $10K.

They don’t recommend using passive subs with your own amps because their amps are ESPECIALLY MADE to work specifically with their subs.

So, they have a preset DSP? The Sonance Sonarray have that, too- it's a Crown XTi or CDi amp, IIRC. Comes preset in Audio Architect.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So, they have a preset DSP? The Sonance Sonarray have that, too- it's a Crown XTi or CDi amp, IIRC. Comes preset in Audio Architect.

Oh, I was just very generically and stereotypically making that up. I didn’t actually read about them like Pogre did.

 

[highfigh]

Oh, I was just very generically and stereotypically making that up. I didn’t actually read about them like Pogre did.

I didn't know you were a journalist.

 

[3db]

Again you have promulgated a common misconception. There is actually little acoustic power in the last two octave below 80 Hz. It just seems that way because so many subs are terminally inefficient. The bulk of the acoustic power is from 80 Hz to 2.5 KHz and there is still quite a lot of power out to 5K.

The major power band is from 80 Hz to 1000 Hz or so. That is why for a powerful system, bookshelf speakers are a bad bet. If you have an efficient bass system like I do, you find that the below 80 Hz range takes actually very little power. You can see why on the power band requirements of instrument and bass fundamental frequencies and harmonics. We have displayed them often.

What a sub does do, is limit cone excursion of smaller drivers. This does reduce doppler distortion and other distortions. It does very little to off load the receiver.

One of the huge limitations of accurate reproduction is severe limitation of the power band room response between 80 and 1.5 KHZ, and especially 80 to 800 Hz.
This is where you need to devote resources.

Next subs do not create slam, there is no slam at those frequencies. What creates slam is accurate transient response of the whole wave form. That requires accurate time/phase response across the whole audible spectrum and uniform FR on and off axis, to create an accurate uniform in room power response.
This also requires cutting retained energy in the mechanical parts of the speaker system to the minimum

Unfortunately analog crossovers significantly disturb the time/phase response, but to varying degrees, depending on the overall design.

This is where active speakers, with DSP time alignment offer the prospect of much improved results.

Lastly there is now increasing evidence that Ted Jordan was right, that separating a fundamental from it harmonics in time is a bad thing. I have always believed that as Ted was one of my mentors. So placing subs away from mains, is a bad idea. That is why I designed and built highly integrated front speakers.

As you really work on this and minimize the the above aberrations, the improvement becomes truly astonishing.

A lot of the the current practice of the last 20 years has been 180 degrees wrong!

You missed FMW's point. You are mixing up acoustic power and spectral density with electrical power. Its more difficult for an amp to drive bass frequencies than its mid range to high frequencies. Measurements will easily confirm this. If one is loading an amp up with mid to high range signals which is most content in music, then freeing up the harder to drive bass frequencies frees up additional power to deal with the rest of the spectral content. Thats what FMW is saying.

The definition of slam needs to be made less nebular. Bass frequencies between 50 to 70 Hz is what gives that kick one feels in a movie. Even my little PSB Subsonic 5 with a 10" driver whose limit was 30 Hz gave me slam.