Time to move to Separates

[TLS Guy]

But why do you think powered subwoofers came with powerful amps?

The issue is actual acoustic power. Subs are small, and that makes them inefficient. So if you look at the acoustic power versus amp power, the sub scores badly. So it takes a lot of amp power for poor acoustic power output. The lower the frequency the more the inefficiency. Sealed subs are notorious in that regard.

It is futile trying to push ported subs below F3 because the driver decouples from the box, and it wasted effort and harmful to the driver.

32 ft. organ pipes are huge. At low frequencies, there is a direct relationship between output and size, for both instruments and speakers. That is another way of looking at efficiency. You will note that my speakers are huge compared to the average. So they can effortlessly reproduce to 20 Hz and shake your liver with little power.

The total effect of this system is actually astonishing compared to other more conventional approaches. If you think about it though, mine is actually the more conventional approach, as it has been used by instrument makers across the eons of time. What I am saying was, and is. intuitive to them. We just try and fight the natures laws with varying degrees of success. So claiming brownie point about the amp power of your subs, is actually a mark of a degree of futility.

 

[Verdinut]

Not trying to be pedantic, but.....

Infrasonic isn't something most speakers can do- some barely hit the second octave above our low frequency hearing threshold. However, used properly, sealed woofers do sound very good- as with other types of enclosures, the design needs to be correct. Trying to use power to make a sub do what it can't is like the saying about teaching a pig to sing- it sounds bad and it annoys the pig.

We were discussing about subwoofers. If one speaker can barely hit the second octave above our LF hearing threshold, you mean in the 40-80 Hz range, then its definitely not a subwoofer. Many five inch mid-woofers can easily reach 50 Hz.

 

[TLS Guy]

Larger diaphragm, moves more air than mids/tweeters, therefore, we have different sensation of the sound.

Acoustical impedance-

https://www4.uwsp.edu/physastr/kmenning/Phys115/Link5-09_acoustic_impedance.pdf

Yes, but acoustic impedance can drop off a cliff. An 18" driver operated below F3 in a ported enclosure, moves a lot of air, but produces no sound.

 

[highfigh]

Yes, but acoustic impedance can drop off a cliff. An 18" driver operated below F3 in a ported enclosure, moves a lot of air, but produces no sound.

A lot like waving a piece of cardboard.

 

[Danzilla31]

I was thinking about 40Hz to 500Hz.

There is another thread where we were debating about which frequencies produced the most ENERGY/FORCE and would require the most AMP POWER.

A lot of people seem to think that most the power requirement is below 20Hz because this is where the most ENERGY/FORCE is being produced.

My experience with what you and @TLS Guy are saying is after I upgraded my subs to RBH when I got there reference version subs passive version I had 2 crown xti 6002's put out 2000 watts each channel into 4 ohms more into 2ohms.

I was so excited right? When I was running them with the crown and was adjusting there DSP I noticed in movies in my room about 15 below reference they were slamming. The subs themselves were so far below reference I couldn't even see the input lights turn on. I estimated I was probably using maybe 200 watts RMS probably 400 peaks

The crowns were just complete overkill. The fans were to loud anyway so I bought from my dealer RBH's sub amplifier which only puts out 500 watts RMS. I thought to myself why build these monster subs only to provide them with a 500 watt amp?

Once I had them hooked up level matched and set to the right eq setting eq 4 for the reference versions I understood why.

500 watts was more then enough beyond enough for my room with capable subs. I do feel that my main amplifiers do probably work either harder or just as hard with giving power to give me the midrange voices and dynamics for the rest of the system to match the subs

 

[lovinthehd]

Still, depends on content you listen to and how loudly and what your speakers are capable of. There can be benefits for both amp and speaker in offloading to a sub. YMMV.

 

[Danzilla31]

Still, depends on content you listen to and how loudly and what your speakers are capable of. There can be benefits for both amp and speaker in offloading to a sub. YMMV.

Yeah I agree if you cant build the speakers correctly but also design and integrate them into the room like TLS Guy can it makes sense to go the route most of us do

The rest of us that don't have that high level of skill it works great to use the subs to take the load off the speakers and place them and the speakers where they measure and sound best

The speakers I got are modular but I put the tops on stands where they worked best and the subs were distributed throughout the room where they work best with the rest of the system. I don't have the time build skills and do it yourself knowledge to do it any other way but thankfully it sounds great as is

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah I agree if you cant build the speakers correctly but also design and integrate them into the room like TLS Guy can it makes sense to go the route most of us do

The rest of us that don't have that high level of skill it works great to use the subs to take the load off the speakers and place them and the speakers where they measure and sound best

The speakers I got are modular but I put the tops on stands where they worked best and the subs were distributed throughout the room where they work best with the rest of the system. I don't have the time build skills and do it yourself knowledge to do it any other way but thankfully it sounds great as is

Or if you listen to what TLS does...

 

[Verdinut]

I am using one 15" sub in each of my front cabinets. The maximum peak SPL I will listen is about 90 dB at 9 feet from them.

Well, I've never seen any of the 3 amps driving them reach the -20 dB (32.5 watt) level. The 4 ohm Dayton subs have a sensitivity of 91.2 dB @ 2.83 volts.

As a matter of fact, with the mostly classical music I listen to, amplification of frequencies above 200 Hz reaches above 2 watts more frequently on any amp than it reaches 3.25 watts for any of the sub amps.

 

[fmw]

I believe @TLS Guy is saying that it takes more power to produce the frequencies from 80Hz-1000Hz, not from the LOW BASS frequencies.

As I read it, he said there wasn't much content below 80 hz. Probably true of a string quartet. Not true of all music. I disagree with him completely. Subwoofers add a lot to the overall listening experience in frequencies below 80hz in my experience. And, yes, it takes more power to push bass than mids and high frequencies. Subwoofers do relieve the woofers in the speaker systems of a lot of work. There are those of us who like the subwoofer and those of us who do not. He and I are on opposite sides of that issue. I didn't mention anything about subwoofer placement but common sense says to place them where they sound best.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As I read it, he said there wasn't much content below 80 hz. Probably true of a string quartet. Not true of all music. I disagree with him completely. Subwoofers add a lot to the overall listening experience in frequencies below 80hz in my experience. And, yes, it takes more power to push bass than mids and high frequencies. Subwoofers do relieve the woofers in the speaker systems of a lot of work. There are those of us who like the subwoofer and those of us who do not. He and I are on opposite sides of that issue. I didn't mention anything about subwoofer placement but common sense says to place them where they sound best.

I do love those high-quality sub-bass for everything.

We place everything and setup everything so that the system sounds best, +/- a few compromises like WAF and practical life situations.

 

[mono-bloc]

I think it's for same reasons they make 1,000-Watts+ amps for speakers. Overkill. Make more money. Keeping up with the Jones. The loudness game. The numbers game.

More Headroom

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My experience with what you and @TLS Guy are saying is after I upgraded my subs to RBH when I got there reference version subs passive version I had 2 crown xti 6002's put out 2000 watts each channel into 4 ohms more into 2ohms.

I was so excited right? When I was running them with the crown and was adjusting there DSP I noticed in movies in my room about 15 below reference they were slamming. The subs themselves were so far below reference I couldn't even see the input lights turn on. I estimated I was probably using maybe 200 watts RMS probably 400 peaks

The crowns were just complete overkill. The fans were to loud anyway so I bought from my dealer RBH's sub amplifier which only puts out 500 watts RMS. I thought to myself why build these monster subs only to provide them with a 500 watt amp?

Once I had them hooked up level matched and set to the right eq setting eq 4 for the reference versions I understood why.

500 watts was more then enough beyond enough for my room with capable subs. I do feel that my main amplifiers do probably work either harder or just as hard with giving power to give me the midrange voices and dynamics for the rest of the system to match the subs

Yeah, I put my most powerful amp for the subs to handle the ~ 20Hz-120Hz region. The other 9 speakers get the Yamaha MX-A5000 to handle the ~ 120Hz-20kHz.

I am with you. I don't think we need more than 500W for the subs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

More Headroom

It's cool if people want 2,000 - 4,000 Watts for their subs for more "headroom". They are paying for it.

 

[flyboylr45]

So I'll just cover all the bases in this thread and I'll be set:
-subs/main integrated, CHECK
-rear subs for better bass integration, CHECK
-900 watts/ch for subs and 300 watts for mid/tweeter, CHECK
-AVR as pre/pro, CHECK

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So I'll just cover all the bases in this thread and I'll be set:
-subs/main integrated, CHECK
-rear subs for better bass integration, CHECK
-900 watts/ch for subs and 300 watts for mid/tweeter, CHECK
-AVR as pre/pro, CHECK

And it's also NOT just about quantity-power, but QUALITY-POWER.

We have big ATI Amps for Subs, not little plate amps like they have in most subs. Please!

 

[flyboylr45]

And it's also NOT just about quantity-power, but QUALITY-POWER.

We have big ATI Amps for Subs, not little plate amps like they have in most subs. Please!

That's right. As if!!!! lol.

 

[highfigh]

And it's also NOT just about quantity-power, but QUALITY-POWER.

We have big ATI Amps for Subs, not little plate amps like they have in most subs. Please!

But, but, but....Marketing BS!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But, but, but....Marketing BS!

What's marketing BS?

To say that ATI amps and other separates high quality amps (like Bryston) are better quality and more RELIABLE than MOST PLATE AMPS used in powered subs?

No more BS than some people saying that high-end separates components are higher quality than cheaper AVRs.

No more BS than some people saying that certain Auto Room Correction sounds better than others.

Perhaps a difference of opinion.

 

[Am_P]

As I read it, he said there wasn't much content below 80 hz. Probably true of a string quartet. Not true of all music. I disagree with him completely. Subwoofers add a lot to the overall listening experience in frequencies below 80hz in my experience. And, yes, it takes more power to push bass than mids and high frequencies. Subwoofers do relieve the woofers in the speaker systems of a lot of work. There are those of us who like the subwoofer and those of us who do not. He and I are on opposite sides of that issue. I didn't mention anything about subwoofer placement but common sense says to place them where they sound best.

Actually, the TLS dude pwned you a bit. Have a listen to some of the gonzo line arrays (infinity irs, GR NX-treme, etc) out there if you get a chance.