Yamaha AVENTAGE 2021 AV Receivers Bulk Up on Power and 8K Features

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In my room I can hear down to 20ish. I think the biggest factor is spl. Doesn’t matter if your subs are good to 10hz if it’s only at 50db. Lol.

If you can't hear below or above certain frequencies, it doesn't matter if it's 150 dB or 50 dB because you can't hear it.

 

[ryanosaur]

Doesn’t matter if your subs are good to 10hz if it’s only at 50db.

This!

But vibrations from sound waves at 30-60Hz have a lot more ENERGY/FORCE than sound waves at 10-20Hz.

I want to see the research on a claim like this!
Granted the Mid-Bass is where we get the TR sensations like chest slam and what not, but that does not come anywhere close to the destructive power of infrasonic frequencies.
Certainly, SPL matters, anywhere in the Frequency Range, but the lower the frequency, arguably, the more powewr it has to be truly destructive.

 

[ryanosaur]

Do you think the "tactile sensation" or vibration from the frequencies below 20Hz is more powerful (more energy, more force in shaking your body and walls) than from frequencies above 40Hz?

In other words, when the VERY POWERFUL sound waves from 30-80Hz are shaking your body and your walls, can you even feel the much less powerful sound waves below 20Hz?

Ha!
Yes.
I have some music that has some content that you cannot hear, but shakes the entire house at -10dB. It is significantly more potent that what happens watching john wick at reference level.

Keep in mind, Chest Slam is a resonant effect that involves your lungs. I've seen many a claim that to really maximize that effect you have to open your mouth so your chest cavity is open to the "pressure" in the room.

 

[snakeeyes]

The output at that lowest frequency range is important as well. A lot of times the lowest frequency number in the manufacture specs for a sub is at a very low output, meaning it rolls off way before that frequency. You need to look at the measurements of each sub when comparing them.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This!

I want to see the research on a claim like this!
Granted the Mid-Bass is where we get the TR sensations like chest slam and what not, but that does not come anywhere close to the destructive power of infrasonic frequencies.
Certainly, SPL matters, anywhere in the Frequency Range, but the lower the frequency, arguably, the more powewr it has to be truly destructive.

Yeah, I mean it's gotta depend on the magnitude and volume of the sound waves also (10Hz @ 95dB vs 40Hz @ 115dB).

But I do want to see some Engineering thoughts too.

 

[Pogre]

Do you think the "tactile sensation" or vibration from the frequencies below 20Hz is more powerful (more energy, more force in shaking your body and walls) than from frequencies above 40Hz?

Nope. Didn't say that. Just that those lower energy frequencies add to the experience. It doesn't have to pound you through a wall to add to the experience.

You seem to be dismissing the impact of having good, clean deep bass and for me that's not the case. Sure you hear 30 better than 20, but if you don't have a capable sub you don't hear anything at all in those deeper octaves. Plus an undersized sub struggling to fill a room also adds more distortion in those easier to hear frequencies.

It all adds to the experience and I'd miss it if it wasn't there. There was a pretty big wow factor for me when I got appropriate subwoofage. It felt and sounded like I got a whole system overhaul just having big enough subs. My sound quality was cleaned up and improved over the whole frequency range!

 

[ryanosaur]

Yeah, I mean it's gotta depend on the magnitude and volume of the sound waves also (10Hz @ 95dB vs 40Hz @ 115dB).

But I do want to see some Engineering thoughts too.

With your edit...
your ears will be crying sooner than not with the higher SPL... but the infrasonic impact at 95dB will be much stronger than the 40Hz signal at 115.
Now, if the science is correct that our hearing low frequencies becomes more sensitive as the SPL increases, then as that infrasonic frequency increases, not only will the tactile impact increase, but the likelihood of hearing the closest harmonic increases as well thus improving the audible sensation with it.
(Or, at least as I understand it some 25years after music school and my lone acoustics course. )

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Nope. Didn't say that. Just that those lower energy frequencies add to the experience. It doesn't have to pound you through a wall to add to the experience.

You seem to be dismissing the impact of having good, clean deep bass and for me that's not the case. Sure you hear 30 better than 20, but if you don't have a capable sub you don't hear anything at all in those deeper octaves. Plus an undersized sub struggling to fill a room also adds more distortion in those easier to hear frequencies.

It all adds to the experience and I'd miss it if it wasn't there. There was a pretty big wow factor for me when I got appropriate subwoofage. It felt and sounded like I got a whole system overhaul just having big enough subs. My sound quality was cleaned up and improved over the whole frequency range!

I love awesome bass even when I'm watching "Sense and Sensibility", so I'm not dismissing anything.

It's cool to have it all.

But for most people, it's just simply about that great "bass experience". And if they can get that great bass experience with dual 12" subs in their rooms, that's all good.

Sure, most guys may eventually change subs. Most guys do over time. But again, it's just audio. If it sounds great, it is great.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

With your edit...
your ears will be crying sooner than not with the higher SPL... but the infrasonic impact at 95dB will be much stronger than the 40Hz signal at 115.
Now, if the science is correct that our hearing low frequencies becomes more sensitive as the SPL increases, then as that infrasonic frequency increases, not only will the tactile impact increase, but the likelihood of hearing the closest harmonic increases as well thus improving the audible sensation with it.
(Or, at least as I understand it some 25years after music school and my lone acoustics course. )

I wanna see some Physics formula like F=ma and stuff.

We're doing our best to derail this thread again. Must be really slow.

 

[Pogre]

But for most people, it's just simply about that great "bass experience". And if they can get that great bass experience with dual 12" subs in their rooms, that's all good.

That's what we've been saying. My first post about that was "it depends on the sub". A pair of 12s can for sure do the trick if they're the right subs in the right room. The 12" sub being asked about is -3 dB at 29 hz. That's when you chimed in, dismissing 25 hz and below performance!

 

[Pogre]

We're doing our best to derail this thread again. Must be really slow.

I was just thinking that! Ha ha!

 

[ryanosaur]

We're doing our best to derail this thread again. Must be really slow.

What exactly was the purpose of this thread? Has any of it actually been on topic?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's what we've been saying. My first post about that was "it depends on the sub". A pair of 12s can for sure do the trick if they're the right subs in the right room. The 12" sub being asked about is -3 dB at 29 hz. That's when you chimed in, dismissing 25 hz and below performance!

Well, I don't want anyone to feel bad if their subs can't do 25Hz. The point is, if they have a great bass experience with their subs that can do 29Hz, then it's all good.

But it is a well-known thought that most adults don't have the greatest hearing acuity and can't hear below 25Hz. So instead of 20Hz-20kHz, it's probably more like 30Hz-15kHz for most adults above 40s.

 

[Pogre]

Well, I don't want anyone to feel bad if their subs can't do 25Hz. The point is, if they have a great bass experience with their subs that can do 29Hz, then it's all good.

This is true. You can get some good tactile bass and have a pretty durned good experience with 30 hz.

I think someone is considering getting a bigger sub and asked if there's much of a difference.

MOST of us said, with great confidence, "yes!".

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This is true. You can get some good tactile bass and have a pretty durned good experience with 30 hz.

I think someone is considering getting a bigger sub and asked if there's much of a difference.

MOST of us said, with great confidence, "yes!".

You know I can't say something like that. People will just say I'm trying to SELL.

I have to say, "No, you don't need no stinking subs, amps, AVR, nothing."

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

If you can't hear below or above certain frequencies, it doesn't matter if it's 150 dB or 50 dB because you can't hear it.

At 150db, I guarantee you, you will KNOW you’re getting hit with a 20hz wave. Period!

I love awesome bass even when I'm watching "Sense and Sensibility", so I'm not dismissing anything.

It's cool to have it all.

But for most people, it's just simply about that great "bass experience". And if they can get that great bass experience with dual 12" subs in their rooms, that's all good.

Sure, most guys may eventually change subs. Most guys do over time. But again, it's just audio. If it sounds great, it is great.

Agreed. If it sounds great, it’s great. But why leave it there? I mean my car is really fast! But why not make it faster? Sometimes ignorance is bliss. But there’s plenty left on the table, so why not get it.

Well, I don't want anyone to feel bad if their subs can't do 25Hz. The point is, if they have a great bass experience with their subs that can do 29Hz, then it's all good.

But it is a well-known thought that most adults don't have the greatest hearing acuity and can't hear below 25Hz. So instead of 20Hz-20kHz, it's probably more like 30Hz-15kHz for most adults above 40s.

Someone might have a great bass experience at 29hz. But imo and IME, they can have a MUCH better experience getting below that. Down into the teens is awesome. I mean, sure midbass punch from like 30-100 is fun. But when tanks roll through the room, the wobble from ultra deep bass makes it so much more realistic. Midbass can’t compete with that. To me at least. And besides. I don’t feel responsible for someone who gets hurt feelers that their subs can’t do this that or the other thing. Especially when that is the person who asked the question we’re all debating in a thread about…..wut exactly?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

This is true. You can get some good tactile bass and have a pretty durned good experience with 30 hz.

I think someone is considering getting a bigger sub and asked if there's much of a difference.

MOST of us said, with great confidence, "yes!".

Exactly poges. I still say yes.

 

[Am_P]

Are you guys noticing that most receiver brands have some type of midrange compensation built in?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

That's what we've been saying. My first post about that was "it depends on the sub". A pair of 12s can for sure do the trick if they're the right subs in the right room. The 12" sub being asked about is -3 dB at 29 hz. That's when you chimed in, dismissing 25 hz and below performance!

This is exactly why I brought up the pb1k pro. To a certain point, driver size in and of itself isn’t that big a deal.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Maybe this will help.