Yamaha AVENTAGE 2021 AV Receivers Bulk Up on Power and 8K Features

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I feel it was part of the conversation they pigeon holed ASR people and AH people; that was not my intent at all. I believe the core groups of each site see things through slightly different lenses and pointed out my personal observation. Seriously if I could I’d delete all those posts over there as one member latched on and wouldn’t let go. I know it can happen anywhere but it seems to be more prevalent on some forums than others (unacceptance of multiple perspectives / preferences).

Anyway, moving onward! It is a new year after all.

I do have a question, and hope along with others @AcuDefTechGuy chooses to chime in. When you use PEQ the signal still has to be digitized, right? In other words, on a A8A, if you choose not to use YPAO in lieu of PEQ (which the expanded capability of this is very cool), what is difference in the result?

I am familiar with how to use PEQ and did so in my subs prior to running my room correction, but what’s the difference in using one versus the other?

I’m curious as I limit, ARC in my case, to 500Hz on my main 5 channels, if I had access to PEQ at multiple points (11 per channel with Yamaha?) then I could only correct the areas I choose but it could be along the entire frequency response, so I get that, but does ARC/Audyssey/Dirac/YPAO et al introduce more distortion or somehow degrade the SQ (while improving other areas) more than straight PEQ?

Lastly, and this was sort of asked in my first comment, can you adjust PEQ and stay in the analog domain? Some things surprise me; Lyngdorf and the NAD M33 are digital domain only, even analog signals are automatically digitized (and I think the HTP-1 too), so clearly there is a camp that says we believe this is better and external sources be damned. But that isn’t my subjective experience with my system (Ares II, AVM 70). I think this is still sorta on topic as I’m intrigued by Yamaha’s inclusion of balanced ins and outs and the inclusion of PEQ. I liked that on my RMC-1L, when it was in a good mood…… thanks.

I think all processing beyond Direct Mode will increase THD+N.

I do think that anytime we use any kind of EQ (manual or auto EQ), the AVR is doing extra processing.

And it does more processing when the AVR does decoding like Atmos, DTSX, Auro3D.

And definitely does more processing when it uses upmixers like DSU, NeuralX, Auro2D or whatever.

It also does more processing when the AVR does bass management.

That’s why when people measure AVR, they usually measure in Pure Direct mode to eliminate extra processing.

But the amount of THD+N at the end of the signal path is still INAUDIBLE, especially when compared to the THD+N of all the speakers and room acoustics.

 

[tparm]

I think all processing beyond Direct Mode will increase THD+N.

I do think that anytime we use any kind of EQ (manual or auto EQ), the AVR is doing extra processing.

And it does more processing when the AVR does decoding like Atmos, DTSX, Auro3D.

And definitely does more processing when it uses upmixers like DSU, NeuralX, Auro2D or whatever.

It also does more processing when the AVR does bass management.

That’s why when people measure AVR, they usually measure in Pure Direct mode to eliminate extra processing.

But the amount of THD+N at the end of the signal path is still INAUDIBLE, especially when compared to the THD+N of all the speakers and room acoustics.

Makes sense that all processing increases THD+N. I am still curious then (not questioning), why reply solely on PEQ and not use auto room correction? I labored for hours (and hours and hours) with REW for placement and treatments so ARC only tidied up things, but it did make a measurable difference in flatting the FR, admittedly I don't know if it is an audible difference.... Anyway, I know I could simplify things a bit, and open my options for other products that are digital-only, if I would throw in the towel on my current 2CH config, but I am not sure what I gain as I feel in multi-channel anything, spatial music and movies, its less difficult to critically discern SQ than in pure 2CH. I'd love to listen to an A8A (or A6 for that matter) with my Ares II and an NAD C298 in pure direct, know anyone that could make that happen? It may not be an improvement over my current set up and I am not sure I gain anything with that configuration in other modes (like Spatial/movies) over my current system,.

And now I am talking in circles....

 

[PENG]

Makes sense that all processing increases THD+N. I am still curious then (not questioning), why reply solely on PEQ and not use auto room correction? I labored for hours (and hours and hours) with REW for placement and treatments so ARC only tidied up things, but it did make a measurable difference in flatting the FR, admittedly I don't know if it is an audible difference.... Anyway, I know I could simplify things a bit, and open my options for other products that are digital-only, if I would throw in the towel on my current 2CH config, but I am not sure what I gain as I feel in multi-channel anything, spatial music and movies, its less difficult to critically discern SQ than in pure 2CH. I'd love to listen to an A8A (or A6 for that matter) with my Ares II and an NAD C298 in pure direct, know anyone that could make that happen? It may not be an improvement over my current set up and I am not sure I gain anything with that configuration in other modes (like Spatial/movies) over my current system,.

And now I am talking in circles....

Distortions increase, or even decrease will depend on what the REQ, and/or PEQ is doing. For example, cuts won't likely increase distortions but boosts likely will depending on how much it boosts and at what frequency. There could be other factors too on the digital side of things.

Anthem ARC and Yamaha YPAO, as far as I understand from my previous research on them, use IIR filters, and PEQs are based on IIR type filters. Those who do their REQ manually using REW and minidsp will be sort of using PEQs. It definitely can be used to do REQ like a lot of AH members have done.

I know that's not what you are asking, but just fyi.

FIR vs IIR filtering (minidsp.com)

Probably should link THIS one too. JohM is the author of REW

 

[Trell]

One question. WHAT AMPLIFIER are you using in your system?

You seem extremely concerned with pre-out voltage, correct? The Yamaha RX-A3080 has a 2V pre-out voltage.

Most amps like ATI, NAD, Anthem, Rotel and Parasound have a 28dB gain.

This means that 28dB at 2V, the amp can output up to 315 Watts into 8 ohms or 630 Watts into 4 ohms.

So AGAIN, which Amplifier do YOU HAVE?

If you DON’T even have an Amplifier, why are you so concerned that an AVR like the RX-A3080 with 2V isn’t going to be enough? That 315 Watts into 8 ohms isn’t enough?

With respect to the measurements done on ASR it is completely irrelevant what I own, but you seem extremely concerned with it for some reason. Why do you care and why does it matter?

 

[tparm]

With respect to the measurements done on ASR it is completely irrelevant what I own, but you seem extremely concerned with it. Why do you care and why does it matter?

From the outside looking in, I think it matters in response to your apparent requirement of pre-amp mode in your next AVR (which begs the question, why not buy an AVP?) to provide clean voltage output to your external amp(s). The D&M AVRs seem very sensitive to the ability to turn off (although not truly turned off) the internal amps when it comes to clipping which could also affect your external amps when other AVRs pass a clean signal beyond anyone's realistic listening level even though it doesn't have a pre-amp or selectable amp mode.

Depending on your amp's sensitivity and gain, which is why he is asking, pre-amp mode may be a moot point (as backed up by ASR's measurement of the SR-8015, pre-amp mode made no difference).

 

[PENG]

From the outside looking in, I think it matters in response to your apparent requirement of pre-amp mode in your next AVR (which begs the question, why not buy an AVP?) to provide clean voltage output to your external amp(s). The D&M AVRs seem very sensitive to the ability to turn off (although not truly turned off) the internal amps when it comes to clipping which could also affect your external amps when other AVRs pass a clean signal beyond anyone's realistic listening level even though it doesn't have a pre-amp or selectable amp mode.

Depending on your amp's sensitivity and gain, which is why he is asking, pre-amp mode may be a moot point (as backed up by ASR's measurement of the SR-8015, pre-amp mode made no difference).

True, but not as sensitive as Yamaha's though. Gene has commented on exactly this difference on more than one occasion. So far we know the RX-A860, 1080 and 3080 would even shutdown or become marginally stable before Amir and Gene (when he measured the 860) could even measure them at or near 2 V. Anthem's seem to be the best in that regard. It really puzzles me as it shouldn't be difficult to so something in the feedback loop such that the increased distortion from the power amp clipping don't cause the pre out to distort proportionally.

Marantz obviously has done it successfully with D+M's latest AVR, the SR8015. I suspect that will be filtered down to benefit the 2022 Marantz and Denon AVRs and AVPs. That's another good reason (I know, only if I guess right) why I have been suggesting people with the upgrade itch to just use some cheap ointment for now. If and when that happens, D+M AVRs owners can use some of the internal amps with their external amps without suffering from higher THD+N when not in preamp mode. Keep in mind too even now, people who can't tell the difference between 0.05 and 0.005% THD+N can do it without concerns practically speaking, because at 2 V in non preamp mode those Denon/Marantz AVR's pre out's lower SINAD won't result in audibly bad sound anyway. At 75 dB (0.018%) SINAD, it is still in par with the AV7705 and some other AVRs/AVPs or even certain two channel gear.

 

[Trell]

From the outside looking in, I think it matters in response to your apparent requirement of pre-amp mode in your next AVR (which begs the question, why not buy an AVP?) to provide clean voltage output to your external amp(s). The D&M AVRs seem very sensitive to the ability to turn off (although not truly turned off) the internal amps when it comes to clipping which could also affect your external amps when other AVRs pass a clean signal beyond anyone's realistic listening level even though it doesn't have a pre-amp or selectable amp mode.

Depending on your amp's sensitivity and gain, which is why he is asking, pre-amp mode may be a moot point (as backed up by ASR's measurement of the SR-8015, pre-amp mode made no difference).

An AVR with pre-amp mode is much cheaper than an AVP, and can perform just as well if not better. It can lack features like balanced outputs compared to an AVR. I believe @PENG went from AVP to AVR for pre-amp duties, if I recall correctly.

As for pre-amp mode is useful or not for a specific AVR depends on the implementation.

As for not answering his questions about what I own is that it is irrelevant in this case, and I do not want to encourage a culture that ownership is necessary to comment on measurements or reviews where it is not relevant.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

With respect to the measurements done on ASR it is completely irrelevant what I own, but you seem extremely concerned with it for some reason. Why do you care and why does it matter?

The Yamaha RX-A3080 and the new RX-A4, A6 and A8 have a 2v pre-out voltage.

That’s enough to get 315 Watts per channel into 8 ohms from 28dB Amplifiers. Without any pre-amp mode.

So why would Yamaha need a preamp mode if they can get 315W from external amps?

Again, if the preamp mode improves reliability on DM, I am all for that.

 

[tparm]

As for not answering his questions about what I own is that it is irrelevant in this case, and I do not want to encourage a culture that ownership is necessary to comment on measurements or reviews where it is not relevant

Fair enough. Though I’d expect limited conversation around this matter going forward based on your response. I don’t really care what you own or want, I was simply trying to help and most everyone here is aware of the other shared info in your post.

 

[PENG]

While on the pre out, preamp mode topic, here's another example of something similar:
Arcam AVR10 Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

The FFT doesn't look good at all, compared to the Yamaha A6A, SNR also look not too good but does it "sound good", of course if you ask some of their owners.

 

[Torqueflite]

Howdy guy's. Not to change the subject but this is my home theater. Bought all new stuff except for the DVD player. Was told to list equipment on signature but can't find one.
Avantage A4A
OPPO 103D
Apple 4K 2021
Mains, Polk- Reserve R-200 ,Rear- Polk rti4, Sub- SVS pb 1000 Pro
TV Sony 77 inch OLED
Stands and stuff mostly MonoPrice

Guess I got lucky because all of this stuff is great and I am known for being picky in my likes for machinery. There will be a steep learning curve for me however.

 

[Trell]

The Yamaha RX-A3080 and the new RX-A4, A6 and A8 have a 2v pre-out voltage.

That’s enough to get 315 Watts per channel into 8 ohms from 28dB Amplifiers. Without any pre-amp mode.

So why would Yamaha need a preamp mode if they can get 315W from external amps?

Again, if the preamp mode improves reliability on DM, I am all for that.

First, it is not given that the Yamaha AVR can do 2V stably or not shutting down. This is not new. See post #3026 above, for instance.

Second is that there are external amplifiers with lower than 28dB that could even do with more than 2V.

As for reliability that you repeatedly bring up: You should show some statistics for this claim. I would love to see that for various brands.

 

[PENG]

For comparison, here's the FFT for the RX-A3080, anyone can see how much better it is vs the Arcam.
Yamaha AVENTAGE 2021 AV Receivers Bulk Up on Power and 8K Features | Page 152 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

To be clear, this is just SINAD, one should read the whole set of measurements for a better comparison.

 

[PENG]

The Yamaha RX-A3080 and the new RX-A4, A6 and A8 have a 2v pre-out voltage.

Not sure about the A4, the A6 can for sure so the A8 must be able to too.
The 3080 is a little iffy because Amir couldn't even measure it at 2 V before the unit's protection kicked in. May be that refurbish unit is defective, who knows.. Based on the AH measurements, I would expect the A6A make it to the recommended list and got the full pink panther if Amir. From what I have seen so far, the test results on the same or very similar models did get very similar results on both sites. Until Amir gets to measure another Yamaha, the one that measured the best on ASR is the WXA-50, I mean the overall results not just SINAD for the DAC part.

 

[Replicant 7]

Howdy guy's. Not to change the subject but this is my home theater. Bought all new stuff except for the DVD player. Was told to list equipment on signature but can't find one.
Avantage A4A
OPPO 103D
Apple 4K 2021
Mains, Polk- Reserve R-200 ,Rear- Polk rti4, Sub- SVS pb 1000 Pro
TV Sony 77 inch OLED
Stands and stuff mostly MonoPrice

Guess I got lucky because all of this stuff is great and I am known for being picky in my likes for machinery. There will be a steep learning curve for me however.View attachment 52857

Nice setup!

 

[Torqueflite]

Don't about the 2V part but the 4 has front and rear channel pre outs.

 

[Torqueflite]

Thank you I like it.Budget was supposed to be 6K. Would made it without tax.

 

[Replicant 7]

Thank you I like it.Budget was supposed to be 6K. Would made it without tax.

I see your my age, know what they say can't take it with you. I plan on adding more gear this year. Have you run the auto correct yet?

 

[Torqueflite]

I see my age as well. Are you talking about YAPO?

 

[Am_P]

I for one wish that people stopped using various car analogies that are not really relevant.

Let us also be clear that this is about a flagship receiver from Yamaha so with that comes expectations of performance and feature set. For a budget receiver the expectations are different, of course.

Flagship receivers contains many features that some will think is unnecessary, but that is just their opinion, nothing more. I for one thinks that four composite and two component video inputs are unnecessary today, or four zones, or that fifth foot ( ) on the chassis for that matter.

The pre-amp mode quite simply disconnects the internal amps, nothing more. For some users of this flagship receiver the lack of this pre-amp mode will cause the flagship receiver to go into protection mode because of over-driven internal amps even when they are not used! This is not something I expect from a flagship receiver today. Do you?

There it is: I want top of the line performance from the pre-outs of a flagship receiver. Do I think it's audible? I don't believe so, but there could be audible noise (hiss) with low gain external amplifiers and efficient speakers. Or if the receiver goes into protection mode as that one will be hard to miss.

I have driven my RX-A3070 at rocket ship levels and nothing went into protection mode. It runs cold... I assume you have never owned a flagship Yamaha

Your Denon only has GEQ (no PEQ)????, kinda lame for a flagship Denon eh?
Music cast is way more polished and way less buggy than HEOS (poor user experience).
Does Denon even offer a high quality multichannel amp like Yamaha's MX-A5200. Oh they don't?? Kinda lame...if you ask me.

It's really strange...No other brand... Onkyo, NAD, Arcam, Marantz whatever don't seem to have this level of "My Denon is oh so superior" feral fan club trying to hijack threads for other brands. I wonder why...Is it because ASR posted some numbers on his site?