Yamaha AVENTAGE 2021 AV Receivers Bulk Up on Power and 8K Features

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This is such a broad brush to paint people with... “ASR guys”. It all at once creates a box and puts everyone that appreciates all of the measurements that ASR does in it. As if someone that is a member there looks at the one of the SINAD charts and goes buys something. IMO it is a pretty ridiculous and disingenuous thing to say. As someone that appreciates and visits both AH and ASR, I don’t find it to be true from my experience. Does it really need to be ”ASR Guys” and ”AH Guys”?

I am not speaking for anyone.

But I got the impression that his definition of “ASR guys” means guys who almost BLINDLY think that the lowest possible THD+N (or highest possible SINAD) means the components are better built and have BETTER SOUND QUALITY, which also may imply the components are better designed and have better RELIABILITY.

I’ve mentioned this a few times before- back in the days when many publications (Stereophile, Sound and Vision, Soundstage, HTM, Stereo Review, etc.) were still doing measurements, MANY OF US were already talking A LOT about measurements (THD+N, SNR, Crosstalk) on Audioholics.

Every time a new component was measured, we would all talk about the measurements. Yes, some components had better THD+N and SNR than others. We compared these measurements ALL THE TIME.

I’ve seen THD+N of some AVR’s that were 0.02%, and we would poke fun and said it wasn’t great. But it FELT like EVERYONE also KNEW that although we made fun of these measurements a lot, they were IN FACT INAUDIBLE measurements.

Sure, it is GOOD that we correct manufacturers so they can produce better measurements. Absolutely NO ARGUMENTS from anyone here. As long we all understand that these measurements are INAUDIBLE.

But some guys don’t seem to portray or project this understanding. They seem absolutely focused on getting the lowest THD+N, as if this number proves that the components are better built, more reliable and sound better just because it has the highest SINAD.

So in conclusion, I think it’s great that we talk numbers all day long as long as we also understand that these numbers don’t prove anything other than trying to get manufacturers to get better numbers so that we can sleep better at night.

 

[Trell]

Why can’t some people just treat me like I am just another guy on the forum, like before I was a dealer?

Before I was a dealer, I could speak my mind freely. But now I can’t? Now I am defensive?

Let’s get back to the QUESTION in hand. This is why we are on the forum. Share thoughts and debate. Friendly debate.

1. What PERFORMANCE are you talking about in regards to using pre-outs?
2. Do you use external amps? Which amps do you use?
3. Do these THD+N numbers improve sound quality?

Please just answer the questions and not post any links as your answer.

Please answer why you are against a pre-amp mode that will prevent degrading the pre-out performance even before the internal amps are clipping or even cause the Yamaha receiver going into protection mode?

It’s a nice feature to have and I don’t understand why you are so adamantly against it, so please explain.

 

[Trell]

It is legitimate to wonder, for example, why DACs in Oppo or Gustard devices can get really clean audio measurement of 120-115 dB and many more expensive AVRs/AVRs cannot get even 90 (close to CD dynamic range) or at least consistently good across channels.

Exactly, I would expect the manufacturers to improve over time as the underlying technology improves as well.

But even adding a pre-amp mode feature (like Denon did at Audioholics suggestion) is controversial to some members, for no good reason as far as I can see.

 

[PENG]

I think most of us assumed the main change was the HDMI 2.1 board.

@PENG might have more info on the DAC.

We know for a fact that the AV8805A now (probably since late April/Early May 2021) now has the ESS Sabre DAC. Unfortunately they cheap out, using the ES9010K2M, the same one used in Yamaha's popular A-S801 pseudo integrated amp. If we assume SU has continued their practice of sharing such key parts and circuitry between Denon and Marantz as they have been until the AKM fire, then we can be reasonably sure that the AVR-X8500HA will have the same ES9010K2M. Measurement results will likely not change because even the ES9010K2M won't be the bottleneck in the digital audio signal change.

By the way, SU (D+M) seemingly won't disclose the specific information about their DAC change, other than that they have been replaced. A few ASR members posted the responses (or non response) they received from D+M's customer support team.

We only know about the AV8805A's ES9010K2M because someone posted a teardown on Youtube.

 

[PENG]

A few or you mentioned outboard DACs. Jesus God I brought up the fact that I bought an Ares II to use for 2CH listening with my AVM 70 on ASR and got BLASTED. And like a child I provided equal retorts. But nonetheless, even with my little bloat from 31-37 Hz and 6 dB dip in my right channel at 51 Hz, I prefer the sound in pure analog with the Ares. Am I nuts?

Oh yes you must be, me too so don't blast me.. As Shady said, there's a case for the subjective..., though I disagreed with how he interpreted "objective" it in that video (only in that video I suppose..)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Please answer why you are against a pre-amp mode that will prevent degrading the pre-out performance even before the internal amps are clipping or even cause the Yamaha receiver going into protection mode?

It’s a nice feature to have and I don’t understand why you are so adamantly against it, so please explain.

1st, before I answer that, I want to say that everyone is entitled to his opinion. Everyone thinks he has a better way of doing things, which is understandable.

Just like the two automobile examples I gave in my post about how Toyota chose better insulation to improve cabin noise, while Honda chose to use noise-cancellation speakers.

And Toyota chose to improve the actual engine for better fuel economy, while Honda chose to shut down engine cylinders at cruising speed to improve fuel economy.

If Yamaha doesn’t have to “shut down engine cylinders“ to improve temperature, why does DM?

If Yamaha can make COOLER-operating AVRs without preamp mode, why can’t Denon/Marantz do that?

If we are not talking about cooler operating temperature, then are we talking about better SINAD numbers?

And that’s why I asked you the question- does better SINAD number produce better Sound quality?

If it’s about pre-out voltage and Yamaha’s protection circuit, how much power do you really need? 200 watts? Is this really a problem? If you think it is a problem, then we can debate this point.

So in conclusion, I don’t believe in the preamp mode for these reasons: Unnecessary additional feature that could decrease reliability because this seems like adding MORE PARTS.

Of course, it’s never up to me. But if it were, I would want an AVP with the absolute MINIMAL features - Absolutely No Auto Room EQ, no additional DSP other than the standard DTS, Dolby, and Auro3D upmixers.

I want my AVP to look like a simple PC with as few parts and features as possible, except for the required Atmos, DTSX, Auro3D, and their standard upmixers.

Anyway, who knows? If the preamp mode actually improves reliability, then I am all for it. I am all for better reliability. But this is my current thinking since I don’t know.

 

[PENG]

I am a member of that forum and that is exactly what a lot of 'them' do

May be, but a lot of them don't. As recent as just the last several weeks some members posted they went with AVRs that had poorer measurements. They did so knowingly..

That's the point DJ7675 tried to make, I assume.. So why put them all in one box when some do and some don't.

 

[PacketofCrisps]

May be, but a lot of them don't. As recent as just the last several weeks some members posted they went with AVRs that had poorer measurements. They did so knowingly..

That's the point DJ7675 tried to make, I assume.. So why put them all in one box when some do and some don't.

I understand that, but from an anthropological perspective it's reasonable and quite normal for us to place people into groups, I don't think we assume that makes everyone the same, but I would argue that quite often a majority (dictionary definition: "more than half") of said group does conform to a similar belief system, that still leaves a lot of people that can be outliers while still being part of a group.

 

[tparm]

I feel it was part of the conversation they pigeon holed ASR people and AH people; that was not my intent at all. I believe the core groups of each site see things through slightly different lenses and pointed out my personal observation. Seriously if I could I’d delete all those posts over there as one member latched on and wouldn’t let go. I know it can happen anywhere but it seems to be more prevalent on some forums than others (unacceptance of multiple perspectives / preferences).

Anyway, moving onward! It is a new year after all.

I do have a question, and hope along with others @AcuDefTechGuy chooses to chime in. When you use PEQ the signal still has to be digitized, right? In other words, on a A8A, if you choose not to use YPAO in lieu of PEQ (which the expanded capability of this is very cool), what is difference in the result?

I am familiar with how to use PEQ and did so in my subs prior to running my room correction, but what’s the difference in using one versus the other?

I’m curious as I limit, ARC in my case, to 500Hz on my main 5 channels, if I had access to PEQ at multiple points (11 per channel with Yamaha?) then I could only correct the areas I choose but it could be along the entire frequency response, so I get that, but does ARC/Audyssey/Dirac/YPAO et al introduce more distortion or somehow degrade the SQ (while improving other areas) more than straight PEQ?

Lastly, and this was sort of asked in my first comment, can you adjust PEQ and stay in the analog domain? Some things surprise me; Lyngdorf and the NAD M33 are digital domain only, even analog signals are automatically digitized (and I think the HTP-1 too), so clearly there is a camp that says we believe this is better and external sources be damned. But that isn’t my subjective experience with my system (Ares II, AVM 70). I think this is still sorta on topic as I’m intrigued by Yamaha’s inclusion of balanced ins and outs and the inclusion of PEQ. I liked that on my RMC-1L, when it was in a good mood…… thanks.

 

[Trell]

1st, before I answer that, I want to say that everyone is entitled to his opinion. Everyone thinks he has a better way of doing things, which is understandable.

Just like the two automobile examples I gave in my post about how Toyota chose better insulation to improve cabin noise, while Honda chose to use noise-cancellation speakers.

And Toyota chose to improve the actual engine for better fuel economy, while Honda chose to shut down engine cylinders at cruising speed to improve fuel economy.

If Yamaha doesn’t have to “shut down engine cylinders“ to improve temperature, why does DM?

If Yamaha can make COOLER-operating AVRs without preamp mode, why can’t Denon/Marantz do that?

If we are not talking about cooler operating temperature, then are we talking about better SINAD numbers?

And that’s why I asked you the question- does better SINAD number produce better Sound quality?

If it’s about pre-out voltage and Yamaha’s protection circuit, how much power do you really need? 200 watts? Is this really a problem? If you think it is a problem, then we can debate this point.

So in conclusion, I don’t believe in the preamp mode for these reasons: Unnecessary additional feature that could decrease reliability because this seems like adding MORE PARTS.

Of course, it’s never up to me. But if it were, I would want an AVP with the absolute MINIMAL features - Absolutely No Auto Room EQ, no additional DSP other than the standard DTS, Dolby, and Auro3D upmixers.

I want my AVP to look like a simple PC with as few parts and features as possible, except for the required Atmos, DTSX, Auro3D, and their standard upmixers.

I for one wish that people stopped using various car analogies that are not really relevant.

Let us also be clear that this is about a flagship receiver from Yamaha so with that comes expectations of performance and feature set. For a budget receiver the expectations are different, of course.

Flagship receivers contains many features that some will think is unnecessary, but that is just their opinion, nothing more. I for one thinks that four composite and two component video inputs are unnecessary today, or four zones, or that fifth foot ( ) on the chassis for that matter.

The pre-amp mode quite simply disconnects the internal amps, nothing more. For some users of this flagship receiver the lack of this pre-amp mode will cause the flagship receiver to go into protection mode because of over-driven internal amps even when they are not used! This is not something I expect from a flagship receiver today. Do you?

There it is: I want top of the line performance from the pre-outs of a flagship receiver. Do I think it's audible? I don't believe so, but there could be audible noise (hiss) with low gain external amplifiers and efficient speakers. Or if the receiver goes into protection mode as that one will be hard to miss.

 

[tparm]

Wow that was long post….

 

[Trell]

Wow that was long post….

Yours or mine?

 

[PENG]

I for one wish that people stopped using various car analogies that are not really relevant.

Let us also be clear that this is about a flagship receiver from Yamaha so with that comes expectations of performance and feature set. For a budget receiver the expectations are different, of course.

Flagship receivers contains many features that some will think is unnecessary, but that is just their opinion, nothing more. I for one thinks that four composite and two component video inputs are unnecessary today, or four zones, or that fifth foot ( ) on the chassis for that matter.

The pre-amp mode quite simply disconnects the internal amps, nothing more. For some users of this flagship receiver the lack of this pre-amp mode will cause the flagship receiver to go into protection mode because of over-driven internal amps even when they are not used! This is not something I expect from a flagship receiver today. Do you?

There it is: I want top of the line performance from the pre-outs of a flagship receiver. Do I think it's audible? I don't believe so, but there could be audible noise (hiss) with low gain external amplifiers and efficient speakers. Or if the receiver goes into protection mode as that one will be hard to miss.

I think I understand your points as well as ADTG's. He asked: "If it’s about pre-out voltage and Yamaha’s protection circuit, how much power do you really need? 200 watts? Is this really a problem? If you think it is a problem, then we can debate this point."

In the real world when people use the A6A to watch movies and listen to music at home, their AVRs will not likely shut down by the protection circuit. That being said, I also understand the point that if the protection circuit is too sensitive and cannot be disabled or lower the sensitivity for testing, then it could frustrate the reviewer and potential buyers who are fixated on numbers.

 

[tparm]

Yours or mine?

Mine haha, and from my phone so its actually hard to read, will edit.

 

[Trell]

I think I understand your points as well as ADTG's. He asked: "If it’s about pre-out voltage and Yamaha’s protection circuit, how much power do you really need? 200 watts? Is this really a problem? If you think it is a problem, then we can debate this point."

In the real world when people use the A6A to watch movies and listen to music at home, their AVRs will not likely shut down by the protection circuit. That being said, I also understand the point that if the protection circuit is too sensitive and cannot be disabled or lower the sensitivity for testing, then it could frustrate the reviewer and potential buyers who are fixated on numbers.

An example of a possible frustrated owner will be one with low gain external amplifiers using low sensitivity speakers sitting some distance away. In this case the case the choice of external amplifiers or speakers are unnecessarily restricted for a flagship receiver.

 

[PENG]

I understand that, but from an anthropological perspective it's reasonable and quite normal for us to place people into groups, I don't think we assume that makes everyone the same, but I would argue that quite often a majority (dictionary definition: "more than half") of said group does conform to a similar belief system, that still leaves a lot of people that can be outliers while still being part of a group.

That sounds reasonable and definitely more agreeable, but I have the impression that this is not the case with ASR where I find difficult to see the justification for them to be grouped. Now if you have read a good proportion of the posts over there, not just from a few threads from say the majority of the threads, and then you come to the conclusion that ASR members can be group then I would say it is justified. I suspect most people will find it too time consuming to do so, unless someone is doing it as a research study, hopefully funded by some audio related societies or universities.

As ADTG said "

I am not speaking for anyone.

But I got the impression that his definition of “ASR guys” means guys who almost BLINDLY think that the lowest possible THD+N (or highest possible SINAD) means the components are better built and have BETTER SOUND QUALITY, which also may imply the components are better designed and have better RELIABILITY. "

So while I agreed with him on that, I would disagree with someone who think such ASR guys ADTG referred to are the majority, or even >50%, and I have been a members that for probably at least two years and have read a lot posts over many threads. ADTG did not say they were the majority either, that's great and I appreciate that he clearly is not biased. He made that clear in "his definition...." and I think I know who that "his" is.

By the way, for those who are interested, ASR has a dedicated thread (among numerous threads where such topics are discussed/argued regularly) that Amir created recently for the obvious reason.

Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing? | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

In my opinion the title would have been better if he included "or something in between".

 

[PENG]

An example of a possible frustrated owner will be one with low gain external amplifiers using low sensitivity speakers sitting some distance away. In this case the case the choice of external amplifiers or speakers are unnecessarily restricted for a flagship receiver.

Yep, that's why it always helps to save unnecessary arguments if we include some caveats, stated conditions of use etc..

 

[PENG]

I am not speaking for anyone.

But I got the impression that his definition of “ASR guys” means guys who almost BLINDLY think that the lowest possible THD+N (or highest possible SINAD) means the components are better built and have BETTER SOUND QUALITY, which also may imply the components are better designed and have better RELIABILITY.

And in my mind, there aren't that many "guys" who think that way. Yes, you will see people quoting the THD+N figures and you for sure know I am one of those, who would even linked/post the SINAD ranking chart. That's just for convenience for comparison purposes as THD+N is probably the only thing that all test benches such as S&V, HCC and AVtech (no longer bench test), HTHF, AH, ASR, SSHIFI and others do. I would never say just pick the one on top, unless I have already read the full battery of the measurement and would include the link for other posters to see the full tests.

Along with FR, XT, IMD, THD+N is also likely in the top 5 important measurements that could be used to predict the competence of DACs, preamps or power amps, yet I have not ever seen anyone suggested an AVR or AVP, or any preamp, power amp that has the lowest THD+N would imply the components are better designed and have better reliability as such. THD+N alone is just one indicator. I those "ASR guys" think only THD+N is important they wouldn't be asking Amir to measure more and more, I can easily think of a few more tests people there have been asking him to do. To be clear, I fully understand why some AH members (not you obviously) would have gotten the impression that such "ASR guys" are of the majority (again not you, you never said that) but if I even try to suggest the reasons behind that my post will be far too long for @tparm especially if he's still driving through snow.

Now if the DUT shows unacceptably high THD+N, then yes, a lot of people would say the device is not well engineered (or something like that), and I wish they wouldn't be so quick to jump to such conclusions.

 

[tparm]

but if I even try to suggest the reasons behind that my post will be far too long for @tparm especially if he's still driving through snow.

Haha, post away my friend, I learn something from nearly all of you guys responses, I love it.

Interstate 64 in VA yesterday, a trip that normally takes 4.5 hours took 7:20. I watched several trees fall, including the one on the truck three cars up from me, and a half dozen or so cars bounce off guardrails at high enough speeds for airbag deployment. I really wanted a bourbon and some music when I got home, alas I found my bed instead.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I for one wish that people stopped using various car analogies that are not really relevant.

Let us also be clear that this is about a flagship receiver from Yamaha so with that comes expectations of performance and feature set. For a budget receiver the expectations are different, of course.

Flagship receivers contains many features that some will think is unnecessary, but that is just their opinion, nothing more. I for one thinks that four composite and two component video inputs are unnecessary today, or four zones, or that fifth foot ( ) on the chassis for that matter.

The pre-amp mode quite simply disconnects the internal amps, nothing more. For some users of this flagship receiver the lack of this pre-amp mode will cause the flagship receiver to go into protection mode because of over-driven internal amps even when they are not used! This is not something I expect from a flagship receiver today. Do you?

There it is: I want top of the line performance from the pre-outs of a flagship receiver. Do I think it's audible? I don't believe so, but there could be audible noise (hiss) with low gain external amplifiers and efficient speakers. Or if the receiver goes into protection mode as that one will be hard to miss.

One question. WHAT AMPLIFIER are you using in your system?

You seem extremely concerned with pre-out voltage, correct? The Yamaha RX-A3080 has a 2V pre-out voltage.

Most amps like ATI, NAD, Anthem, Rotel and Parasound have a 28dB gain.

This means that 28dB at 2V, the amp can output up to 315 Watts into 8 ohms or 630 Watts into 4 ohms.

So AGAIN, which Amplifier do YOU HAVE?

If you DON’T even have an Amplifier, why are you so concerned that an AVR like the RX-A3080 with 2V isn’t going to be enough? That 315 Watts into 8 ohms isn’t enough?