Will Probably Need to Replace the SR605 at This Point...Can Someone Help Choose a New AVR Based on Specific Needs?

[lovinthehd]

It's weird, because many are saying the opposite...

BTW, missed chatting with you during the days of AVS...



Right -- this is the dilemma I am stuck in, because we only would need a new AVR if the HDMI out on our current one is bad (because I need it to double-check settings from time to time; it doesn't pass 4K video, so I'm obviously not using it for that), but we'd also need a new one if/when we add either Atmos ceiling speakers or the front modules.

Otherwise, the 605 is doing just fine for our needs.



You haven't moved to a 4K display yet?

I moved to 4K, adding a Samsung UHD TV and Panasonic UHD Blu-ray player, but I didn't have to give up my old AVR because the Blu-ray player has dual HDMI outs, so I can run one to the display directly for video and the other to my older Onkyo for bitstreaming the "older" codecs like TrueHD and Master Audio.



Well, if it does what's being described here -- basically "guessing" at where dialogue should go in an overhead Atmos-enabled space (unless I am not understanding how it works) -- I don't know if I'd personally call it "good."



I BELIEVE -- but can't be 100-percent certain -- that my unit DOES allow you to apply DTS Neo:6 (which is like DTS' answer to Dolby's Pro Logic) processing to Dolby-encoded sources. I never used the DTS modes with two-channel soundtracks, instead always relying on Dolby Pro Logic II Movie mode, but I know there is a music-oriented mode for Neo:6, much like Pro Logic II Music...

I have two large plasmas I use mostly and a few lcd sets (not even 1080p!) in other setups too. They all work fine. I usually need more reason to actually make a change than I think 4k offers. There's not really enough 4k content to get excited about IMO and at my typical distance perhaps it would be an advantage in my bedroom, probably not in the living room tho. My Oppo can play the two or three 4k discs I have if one of the plasmas fail and get a new OLED, and has dual outputs so I could still even use my older avrs until the ceiling gets attacked (not likely, haven't done it yet )....

Yeah dialog in the overheads wouldn't thrill me in any case. Yes I can apply the Dolby/DTS/DSX sound modes in tandem in my units....and Dolby seems to have had so many complaints when they tried to block such they reversed course

I thought your screen name was somewhat familiar. Greetings!

 

[lovinthehd]

Look at what treb mentioned in the lengthy post above...

I'll check it out, treb knows his stuff....

 

[lovinthehd]

Treb is saying it does remember still from my reading of his post....and while watching a given show or listening to music I can't think of why it would change codec for the example he gave of not keeping it in mind for your whole listening session for a particular sound mode....or I'm missing something there.

 

[Kaskade89052]

I have two large plasmas I use mostly and a few lcd sets (not even 1080p!) in other setups too. They all work fine. I usually need more reason to actually make a change than I think 4k offers. There's not really enough 4k content to get excited about IMO and at my typical distance perhaps it would be an advantage in my bedroom, probably not in the living room tho. My Oppo can play the two or three 4k discs I have if one of the plasmas fail and get a new OLED, and has dual outputs so I could still even use my older avrs until the ceiling gets attacked (not likely, haven't done it yet )....

Yeah dialog in the overheads wouldn't thrill me in any case. Yes I can apply the Dolby/DTS/DSX sound modes in tandem in my units....and Dolby seems to have had so many complaints when they tried to block such they reversed course

I thought your screen name was somewhat familiar. Greetings!

I didn't believe in 4K initially, either, but figured it would be a good opportunity to upgrade being that both our 1080p TV (a Sony SXRD rear projection set) and Blu-ray player (first a Panasonic DMP-BD10A and then an Oppo BDP-83) were beginning to show signs of failure after decades of loyal use. I have found that a lot of titles we've been buying in UHD Blu-ray can better their Blu-ray counterparts if only because of the HDR application alone -- good examples are Aquaman and Bad Boys for Life. But I am certainly not replacing every disc in our Blu-ray or DVD collections with 4K Blu-ray versions, as some have begun doing, instead cherry-picking some favorite catalog titles to replace every now and then (we did this with Independence Day and John Carpenter's Christine).

I am not sure if what treb meant was that, literally, dialogue would be coming from overhead channels -- but the whole thing with the new upmixer techniques doesn't seem promising for my particular needs.

With regard to the AVS connection, I wasn't using this name back when we were both communicating on that forum, but I do recall talking to you a lot in the two-channel area of that cesspool.

 

[Kaskade89052]

Treb is saying it does remember still from my reading of his post....and while watching a given show or listening to music I can't think of why it would change codec for the example he gave of not keeping it in mind for your whole listening session for a particular sound mode....or I'm missing something there.

I will have to read it again then in greater detail.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Treb is saying it does remember still from my reading of his post....and while watching a given show or listening to music I can't think of why it would change codec for the example he gave of not keeping it in mind for your whole listening session for a particular sound mode....or I'm missing something there.

I haven’t deep dived this yet so get your salt ready. But in my system, I have tested the memory thing on dish network. I have a particular channel that only sends 2.0 DD. I can select whatever sound mode I want. Stereo, DSU DTSnx etc, and then go browsing on other dd5.1 channels, and whenever I come back to the 2.0, it always goes back to whatever it was set to before. I haven’t tried this with any hard media yet, but maybe tonight I can try that.
And fwiw, I’ve never had dialogue in my IC top speakers that I didn’t expect to be there. Although DTSnx sometimes puts things up there that I wonder about sometimes, music especially. It can make up mixed tracks more exciting though.
Ime, DSU is a great upmixer.
While I did like pliix a lot, I don’t really miss it except for the customizability for the music mode. My 6012 is from 2017 and doesn’t have virtualizer so I can’t speak to that either.
Edit: I also didn’t update my firmware that disabled cross upmixing so I can still do that.

 

[Kaskade89052]

Okay, Lovin....so William just provided one example....

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Okay, Lovin....so William just provided one example....

It’s all I got until I go did out some 2.0 disks.
Iirc dish used to do pcm dts and DD. Now the only option I have is DD. DD+ and supposedly Atmos. That could change things.

 

[lovinthehd]

Okay, Lovin....so William just provided one example....

We need @Trebdp83 to 'splain

 

[Trebdp83]

It’s not that Dolby Surround is trying to put dialogue anywhere but in the center channel. But, some 2.0 tracks on disc suck. Some 2.0 tracks over tv broadcast suck. Dialogue bleed can be an issue. But, one wouldn’t noticed it too much in the MLP. Sometimes there is none at all using Dolby Surround. Sometimes one has to try DTS Neural:X processing to see how it handles it. Onkyo has its own mode called TV Logic that they say is meant for TV shows. It does a great job with lousy 2.0 TV tracks and I use it for shows I’ve recorded on my TiVo.

Now, as for changing the sound mode while using the same source input, this can be a pain when using an Apple TV 4K. Atmos tracks get played “Straight”(Yamaha made Straight an actual mode) in Atmos mode with my Speaker Virtualizer on. All non atmos tracks come in as PCM using the Apple TV 4K if one is not converting the audio to lossy Dolby Digital 5.1. I use DTS Virtual:X to process PCM. But, if I go back to an atmos track, it goes to Stereo mode and I have to get it back to Atmos 5.1 in the Onkyo. The Denon went right to Atmos 5.1 and saved me a step when going back to an Atmos track from a PCM track.

 

[lovinthehd]

It’s not that Dolby Surround is trying to put dialogue anywhere but in the center channel. But, some 2.0 tracks on disc suck. Some 2.0 tracks over tv broadcast suck. Dialogue bleed can be an issue. But, one wouldn’t noticed it too much in the MLP. Sometimes there is none at all using Dolby Surround. Sometimes one has to try DTS Neural:X processing to see how it handles it. Onkyo has its own mode called TV Logic that they say is meant for TV shows. It does a great job with lousy 2.0 TV tracks and I use it for shows I’ve recorded on my TiVo.

Now, as for changing the sound mode while using the same source input, this can be a pain when using an Apple TV 4K. Atmos tracks get played “Straight”(Yamaha made Straight an actual mode) in Atmos mode with my Speaker Virtualizer on. All non atmos tracks come in as PCM using the Apple TV 4K if one is not converting the audio to lossy Dolby Digital 5.1. I use DTS Virtual:X to process PCM. But, if I go back to an atmos track, it goes to Stereo mode and I have to get it back to Atmos 5.1 in the Onkyo. The Denon went right to Atmos 5.1 and saved me a step when going back to an Atmos track from a PCM track.

What Onkyo is it?

I didn't believe in 4K initially, either, but figured it would be a good opportunity to upgrade being that both our 1080p TV (a Sony SXRD rear projection set) and Blu-ray player (first a Panasonic DMP-BD10A and then an Oppo BDP-83) were beginning to show signs of failure after decades of loyal use. I have found that a lot of titles we've been buying in UHD Blu-ray can better their Blu-ray counterparts if only because of the HDR application alone -- good examples are Aquaman and Bad Boys for Life. But I am certainly not replacing every disc in our Blu-ray or DVD collections with 4K Blu-ray versions, as some have begun doing, instead cherry-picking some favorite catalog titles to replace every now and then (we did this with Independence Day and John Carpenter's Christine).

I am not sure if what treb meant was that, literally, dialogue would be coming from overhead channels -- but the whole thing with the new upmixer techniques doesn't seem promising for my particular needs.

With regard to the AVS connection, I wasn't using this name back when we were both communicating on that forum, but I do recall talking to you a lot in the two-channel area of that cesspool.

I've generally heard that the higher dynamic range is the best part of 4k. I'm just in no hurry, I'm sure I'd like it, but enough for a buncha new tvs and maybe other gear? Nah. Unless something fails, am pretty happy with what I've got. With an upmixer they can only be so smart, too, so if an upmixer sounds odd with something particular, I'll just go back to its native format. Generally the upmixers work pretty well for me, tho.

LOL the 2ch area was probably why I got booted. Your id there?

Interesting @Trebdp83 's experience he clarified with, wonder if the manual bears that out?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

It’s not that Dolby Surround is trying to put dialogue anywhere but in the center channel. But, some 2.0 tracks on disc suck. Some 2.0 tracks over tv broadcast suck. Dialogue bleed can be an issue. But, one wouldn’t noticed it too much in the MLP. Sometimes there is none at all using Dolby Surround. Sometimes one has to try DTS Neural:X processing to see how it handles it. Onkyo has its own mode called TV Logic that they say is meant for TV shows. It does a great job with lousy 2.0 TV tracks and I use it for shows I’ve recorded on my TiVo.

Now, as for changing the sound mode while using the same source input, this can be a pain when using an Apple TV 4K. Atmos tracks get played “Straight”(Yamaha made Straight an actual mode) in Atmos mode with my Speaker Virtualizer on. All non atmos tracks come in as PCM using the Apple TV 4K if one is not converting the audio to lossy Dolby Digital 5.1. I use DTS Virtual:X to process PCM. But, if I go back to an atmos track, it goes to Stereo mode and I have to get it back to Atmos 5.1 in the Onkyo. The Denon went right to Atmos 5.1 and saved me a step when going back to an Atmos track from a PCM track.

Interesting. So a couple differences for you and I is the virtualizer, and I have physical top speakers where I believe you do not. Correct? You’re also testing a new Yamaha and the Yamaha in my media room is also old, and the newest one I’ve set up is is a 3080. Couple years old….
I haven’t noticed any issues on my ATV 4k but I haven’t been looking for any either. The issues that are in question are from a specific(but not necessarily completely unique) use case so this is an exercise in experimentation.
Now get your Fukkin shitt together man!!!!!

 

[Trebdp83]

Oh, my s#%t is together. No issue really with the Apple TV 4K. If I left the receiver on Dolby Surround 5.1 all of the time, it would simply switch between it and Atmos 5.1 when going from PCM to Atmos/PCM(Dolby MAT). But, I like using DTS Virtual:X for non Atmos tracks that come in as PCM.

As for dialogue bleed, I’ve experienced it in Dolby Surround mode using five different receivers. It occurred with the Yamaha RX-V6A(2020), the new Denon AVR-S760H(2021) and my three Onkyo models, the TX-NR777(2017), TX-NR696(2019) and the new TX-NR6050(2021). It is what it is. I’d lay it on Dolby’s doorstep.

To answer @lovinthehd, the TV Logic mode is present in all of my Onkyo receivers. Onkyo also has its own virtualizer mode called T-D(Theater-Dimensional) that, like Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization and DTS Virtual:X, only works when Virtual Speakers are set at On.

Ok, so there are a few things to consider with Atmos in a 5.1 setup. With Virtual Speakers Off, Atmos metadata is lost from disc tracks that have Dolby TrueHD at their core and the input signal will display Dolby TrueHD 7.1. Turn Virtual Speakers On and the Atmos input signal returns. This would also be the case when using a 7.1 setup. No real or virtual height speakers means no metadata is processed and sent to the speakers in use in a given setup.

Using virtual speakers or not with Dolby Surround/Atmos doesn't change the "sound" of the audio but just adds a a sense of immersion in it. This is not the case with DTS Virtual:X. Use DTS Neural:X with or without real height speakers or no virtual speakers and the "sound" seems the same. Use DTS Virtual:X in a 5.1 setup and things change. It jumps out at you and dialogue seems louder and lifted up and into the room a bit. Surround sound suddenly gets amped up and lifted up into the room as well. Use it on non DTS tracks and get mixed results. It sounded lousy on some MLP tracks on DVD-Audio disc. It sound great on multichannel DSD tracks from a SACD. Apply it to a DTS HD Master Audio track and it sounds really, really good. But, that's just my experience with it anyway.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Oh, my s#%t is together. No issue really with the Apple TV 4K. If I left the receiver on Dolby Surround 5.1 all of the time, it would simply switch between it and Atmos 5.1 when going from PCM to Atmos/PCM(Dolby MAT). But, I like using DTS Virtual:X for non Atmos tracks that come in as PCM.

As for dialogue bleed, I’ve experienced it in Dolby Surround mode using five different receivers. It occurred with the Yamaha RX-V6A(2020), the new Denon AVR-S760H(2021) and my three Onkyo models, the TX-NR777(2017), TX-NR696(2019) and the new TX-NR6050(2021). It is what it is. I’d lay it on Dolby’s doorstep.

To answer @lovinthehd, the TV Logic mode is present in all of my Onkyo receivers. Onkyo also has its own virtualizer mode called T-D(Theater-Dimensional) that, like Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization and DTS Virtual:X, only works when Virtual Speakers are set at On.

Ok, so there are a few things to consider with Atmos in a 5.1 setup. With Virtual Speakers Off, Atmos metadata is lost from disc tracks that have Dolby TrueHD at their core and the input signal will display Dolby TrueHD 7.1. Turn Virtual Speakers On and the Atmos input signal returns. This would also be the case when using a 7.1 setup. No real or virtual height speakers means no metadata is processed and sent to the speakers in use in a given setup.

Using virtual speakers or not with Dolby Surround/Atmos doesn't change the "sound" of the audio but just adds a a sense of immersion in it. This is not the case with DTS Virtual:X. Use DTS Neural:X with or without real height speakers or no virtual speakers and the "sound" seems the same. Use DTS Virtual:X in a 5.1 setup and things change. It jumps out at you and dialogue seems louder and lifted up and into the room a bit. Surround sound suddenly gets amped up and lifted up into the room as well. Use it on non DTS tracks and get mixed results. It sounded lousy on some MLP tracks on DVD-Audio disc. It sound great on multichannel DSD tracks from a SACD. Apply it to a DTS HD Master Audio track and it sounds really, really good. But, that's just my experience with it anyway.

Thanks for that treb. Just a point of clarification for those that might overlook it. The metadata is NOT decoded and unpacked, true. But the sounds that the meatadata is attached to, is still present in the soundtrack. It’s just not sent to any XYZ coordinates, rather simply sent to whatever speaker it’s mixed to in the core track.

 

[Kaskade89052]

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.....

I'll get back to everyone just as soon as I can wrap my friggin' brain around what is being discussed heaaaaa....

 

[lovinthehd]

Oh, my s#%t is together. No issue really with the Apple TV 4K. If I left the receiver on Dolby Surround 5.1 all of the time, it would simply switch between it and Atmos 5.1 when going from PCM to Atmos/PCM(Dolby MAT). But, I like using DTS Virtual:X for non Atmos tracks that come in as PCM.

As for dialogue bleed, I’ve experienced it in Dolby Surround mode using five different receivers. It occurred with the Yamaha RX-V6A(2020), the new Denon AVR-S760H(2021) and my three Onkyo models, the TX-NR777(2017), TX-NR696(2019) and the new TX-NR6050(2021). It is what it is. I’d lay it on Dolby’s doorstep.

To answer @lovinthehd, the TV Logic mode is present in all of my Onkyo receivers. Onkyo also has its own virtualizer mode called T-D(Theater-Dimensional) that, like Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization and DTS Virtual:X, only works when Virtual Speakers are set at On.

Ok, so there are a few things to consider with Atmos in a 5.1 setup. With Virtual Speakers Off, Atmos metadata is lost from disc tracks that have Dolby TrueHD at their core and the input signal will display Dolby TrueHD 7.1. Turn Virtual Speakers On and the Atmos input signal returns. This would also be the case when using a 7.1 setup. No real or virtual height speakers means no metadata is processed and sent to the speakers in use in a given setup.

Using virtual speakers or not with Dolby Surround/Atmos doesn't change the "sound" of the audio but just adds a a sense of immersion in it. This is not the case with DTS Virtual:X. Use DTS Neural:X with or without real height speakers or no virtual speakers and the "sound" seems the same. Use DTS Virtual:X in a 5.1 setup and things change. It jumps out at you and dialogue seems louder and lifted up and into the room a bit. Surround sound suddenly gets amped up and lifted up into the room as well. Use it on non DTS tracks and get mixed results. It sounded lousy on some MLP tracks on DVD-Audio disc. It sound great on multichannel DSD tracks from a SACD. Apply it to a DTS HD Master Audio track and it sounds really, really good. But, that's just my experience with it anyway.

There's a firmware update addressing center channel bleed that just came out, at least for some models, like the 4700 https://www-denon-jp.translate.goog/ja-jp/support/avr-x4700hupdate?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US#divSubscribe or maybe just this link if the translation page doesn't work and you can apply your own https://www.denon.jp/ja-jp/support/avr-x4700hupdate

Curious, with other sources than the ATV, does the avr still not remember codecs/sound mode application?

 

[Trebdp83]

Thanks for that treb. Just a point of clarification for those that might overlook it. The metadata is NOT decoded and unpacked, true. But the sounds that the meatadata is attached to, is still present in the soundtrack. It’s just not sent to any XYZ coordinates, rather simply sent to whatever speaker it’s mixed to in the core track.

Right. It's all there but needs height or virtual height speakers to make use of the metadata.

As for bleed. I have to say again that it is more an issue with poor 2.0 tracks than poor processing. I watched “Venom: Let There Be Carnage.” Played the DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 track on the blu-ray version in DTS Virtual:X mode. Then, played some of it in Dolby Surround mode. Both did a great job with it but DTS dialogue was clearer and louder. Bonus content is in Dolby 2.0. Tried both modes again. Sounded great with no dialogue bleed at all in either mode.

As far as remembering modes, the last mode is remembered with each source. But, the last sound mode used may not be applicable to the next codec.

 

[lovinthehd]

Right. It's all there but needs height or virtual height speakers to make use of the metadata.

As for bleed. I have to say again that it is more an issue with poor 2.0 tracks than poor processing. I watched “Venom: Let There Be Carnage.” Played the DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 track on the blu-ray version in DTS Virtual:X mode. Then, played some of it in Dolby Surround mode. Both did a great job with it but DTS dialogue was clearer and louder. Bonus content is in Dolby 2.0. Tried both modes again. Sounded great with no dialogue bleed at all in either mode.

As far as remembering modes, the last mode is remembered with each source. But, the last sound mode used may not be applicable to the next codec.

So it remembers the last type of signal/codec only by input, but not within the input if the codec changes like your example....weird....I like that it will remember that sort of thing when I'm viewing/playing a variety of material on a particular input. That's which of the Onkyo avrs particularly or is it all?

 

[Trebdp83]

When they dropped the Preset Settings exactly, I’m not sure. Dolby Atmos and DTS:X kinda’ screwed things up there. You cannot cross up mix them with few exeptions. I remember being able to apply DTS Neo:6 Cinema to Atmos tracks using the Yamaha. But, that is an older mode that doesn’t deal in height or virtual height speakers. The Yamaha also allowed for Center Spread to be turned on with atmos tracks while the Onkyo and Denon did not allow for it.

Regarding the Onkyo TX-NR6050, DTS Neural:X and Virtual:X cannot be applied to Dolby Atmos tracks. But, you can get around this if height/virtual height speakers are turned off. The metadata is not flagged and the track, in the case of a blu-ray disc, is simply recognized as a Dolby TrueHD track rather than a Dolby Atmos/TrueHD track. Without the metadata flagged and Atmos displayed as the input, DTS modes are now selectable.

DTS:X tracks work a bit differently. Turning off height or virtual height speakers does not prevent metadata from being flagged as it does with Dolby Atmos tracks. The receiver still recognizes and displays DTS:X as the input codec and Dolby Surround mode cannot be selected for processing like it can for DTS HD Master Audio tracks.

Atmos tracks using an Apple TV 4K are different, still. They are delivered using Dolby MAT. Basically, Dolby Digital Plus lossy core is converted to PCM and metadata is still attached to it. Some receivers briefly confuse it with lossless TrueHD and then sort it out. The Yamaha and Denon displayed Atmos/PCM as the input while the Onkyo simply displays Atmos. As with Atmos/Dolby TrueHD on disc, DTS modes cannot be selected with Atmos/PCM tracks.

Turning height or virtual heights speakers off while playing an Atmos track on the Apple TV 4K does not result in loss of the Atmos flag like it does with discs. If one wants to use DTS sound modes with these tracks, they must go into the audio settings of the Apple TV 4K and turn Atmos off. DTS sound modes will now be available with the PCM track.

Streaming in DTS is practically a non issue until Disney+ applies it to their IMAX Enhanced titles using some form of DTS that nobody has identified for sure, yet. Sony Bravia Core service is, I believe, the only service using some form of DTS. I’ve yet to hear from anybody who has used the service. Most streaming devices and new TVs do not support DTS at all.

 

[Kaskade89052]

I'm COMPLETELY lost folks. Gonna make my 605 work until it's absolutely positively dead, as I just don't understand how these new receivers process signals other than multichannel ones (i.e. stereo, two-channel Dolby Surround or mono).

I simply don't get it.