Will Probably Need to Replace the SR605 at This Point...Can Someone Help Choose a New AVR Based on Specific Needs?

[Kaskade89052]

No, more like a flexible end, or one to change the direction of the port. Like these https://www.monoprice.com/category/adapters,-switches,-&-splitters/av-&-computer-adapters/hdmi-adapters.

Thanks; I'll check it out.

The new models don't have Audyssey, but rather their own AccuEQ (plus Dirac on the upper models).

Yes, I know the newer models carry either AccuEQ or DIRAC for room control; Audyssey was dropped by Onkyo to many fans' dismay. FWIW, I never used 2EQ on my 605.

I don't know how they might have changed their menus/logic for controls, tho, but I'd think most avrs have the memory feature to an extent.

The problem is if I have to use the remote every time I watch a disc with something other than a multichannel soundtrack to change a mode, it's not going to interest me.

 

[Kaskade89052]

I think you'd still need to enable an upmixer at some point manually for such encoded content in 2.0 (or just leave it playing in "stereo").

If this isn't accomplished automatically by some kind of upmixer when it senses a 2.0 signal, it's not worth it to me. Still, I may have no choice when it's finally time to get a new AVR.

 

[lovinthehd]

If this isn't accomplished automatically by some kind of upmixer when it senses a 2.0 signal, it's not worth it to me. Still, I may have no choice when it's finally time to get a new AVR.

I wouldn't want my avr to do that particularly....unless I set the precedent and its remembering that....and to look at it from the other direction, how would you prevent it from doing it automatically?

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks; I'll check it out.



Yes, I know the newer models carry either AccuEQ or DIRAC for room control; Audyssey was dropped by Onkyo to many fans' dismay. FWIW, I never used 2EQ on my 605.



The problem is if I have to use the remote every time I watch a disc with something other than a multichannel soundtrack to change a mode, it's not going to interest me.

It seems the new models have both AccuEQ/MCACC and Dirac from someone's use I saw reported somewhere on a new unit....2EQ is not worth using, tho. XT32 is a completely different thing....especially with the added capabilities of the Editor App as well as the new Audyssey X thing....

Not sure what you mean by that last statement....

 

[Kaskade89052]

I wouldn't want my avr to do that particularly....unless I set the precedent and its remembering that....and to look at it from the other direction, how would you prevent it from doing it automatically?

You're right about it doing the opposite -- but if they would just implement a menu like the old receivers had where you could assign listening mode DEFAULTS (like my Onkyo does) so they switch when detected, it wouldn't be a problem.

Again, this is what my current receiver's Listening Mode Preset menu looks like:

I have Dolby Digital, DTS, etc. set to "Dolby D," "DTS," et al so they straight decode those. Under "Digital Format 2 Channel," I have this set to "PRO LOGIC II MOVIE," so it knows to apply Pro Logic II to a STEREO surround signal. Same with the "Digital Format Mono" option (I have this set to "MONO MOVIE" so these tracks go into the center channel only).

Every time I switch the AVR back on, these simply apply to whatever signal is being presented.

 

[Kaskade89052]

It seems the new models have both AccuEQ/MCACC and Dirac from someone's use I saw reported somewhere on a new unit....2EQ is not worth using, tho. XT32 is a completely different thing....especially with the added capabilities of the Editor App as well as the new Audyssey X thing....

I'm sure it's better than 2EQ; I just never used it.

Not sure what you mean by that last statement....

What I meant was, let's say I put on a disc with a two-channel soundtrack that needs to be processed by some kind of upmixer, such as Dolby Surround (again, this used to be handled by Pro Logic) and in order to get these tracks sent to the proper speakers (dialogue in the center, etc.) I need to press some button on the remote to enter a matrix/upmixer mode...

If the next time I turn the AVR on and have to do that with a disc containing a two-channel soundtrack (and each time after that), it would be irritating being that I got so comfortable -- for WELL over a decade now using my 605 -- being able to let my receiver AUTOMATICALLY do this.

 

[Trebdp83]

How did I miss six pages of this thread? Hey everybody! There seems to be lots of confusion over the Dolby Surround Upmixer and I think I saw a mention of Dolby Digital Plus as a mode rather than a codec. The new Dolby Surround up mixer is better in everyday than previous iterations of Pro Logic. They ran out of letters with Pro Logic IIz and, I guess, decided against Pro Logic IIIa. It will take 2.0 signals and "up mix" them just as before, BUT, it is now "object based." Without real atmos metadata, it decides which sounds get thrown around the room like a ball. When no height speakers are in use, it also uses an algorithm and makes sounds appear to come from above as best it can after "upmixing" the track provided virtual speakers are set to On with speaker assignments from 2.0 to 7.1.

Different receivers have different limitations when processing Dolby and DTS tracks to this day. Cross upmixing is limited between the two. With every manual available online for all new receivers, one can look up a model they may be interested in purchasing and see exactly what that receiver can do with any given codec. The charts can be confusing at times with asterisks and numbers popping up all over the place with one constantly looking to see what limitations those marks entail. Every imaginable mode applied to every imaginable codec is still not possible today but there are many more options than were possible just a few years ago.

Sadly, as new processes and codecs come along, some processes and settings are left behind and we have all purchased replacement models of varying devices and machines to find that one of our favorite features is gone. As for the new Onkyo models, I can only comment on the new TX-NR6050. I've said a bit and have more to say about it as I've been comparing it to the Denon AVR-S760H and Yamaha RX-V6A in another thread that will be linked at the bottom of this post. . The Onkyo is a slightly altered TX-NR6100 that was meant to update my TX-NR696. There are new features I love about it while I also mourn the loss of a few others.

No, the TX-NR6050 does not have the older "Sound Mode Preset" that many liked in older models. It simply applies the mode last used for the input IF the audio source codec has not changed since last used. There can be frustrating taps to the Movie or Music sound mode buttons when audio codecs change and the mode is no longer the preferred one for the job. Volume levels can be applied for each input source. You can set the level or simply select "Last." Source specific settings can be made for any number of things BUT many of those settings can ONLY be made using the receiver's web setup feature. I still haven't gone through all of them but there are quite a few of them concerning HDMI 2.1 video features.

Dolby 2.0 tracks are such a mixed bag. How well it is processed is all over the place. But, yes, the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural/Virtual:X up mixers can get the dialogue centered BUT Dolby processing can suffer from bleed while DTS does better with a lousy 2.0 track. This has been the case using several different receivers and Dolby 2.0 tracks. Results can and will vary depending on the content and devices used in the setup. Everybody is going to have a slightly different experience.

"You long winded, self important motherf#%ker! "Just tell us how it handles DTS HD Master Audio 2.0!" Ok, ok, for crying' Pete! Concerning DTS HD Master Audio 2.0 tracks using the TX-NR6050, things get interesting. Take "The Greatest Showman." The UHD Blu-ray Disc contains a Dolby TrueHD/Atmos(7.1 lossless core + metadata). It also contains a DTS HD Master Audio 2.0 track. Dolby Surround can be applied to the DTS 2.0 track and all sounds good with dialogue coming from the center channel. Apply DTS Neural:X and things are still very good. BUT, apply DTS Virtual:X to the DTS track in a setup without height speakers and things get much better still. I f#%kin' love it! I'll never play the Dolby track or use the Dolby Surround up mixer ever again on that disc. The DTS 2.0 track using DTS Virtual:X presentation is that good. "Are you out of your f#%kin" mind?!" Nope, just like to get folks' goat is all. I'll also never listen to the atmos track on "Ready Player One" from now on. DTS Virtual:X applied to the DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 track sounds much better to me than the Atmos track. "WTF!" Come on guys, I didn't say it IS better, I simply said it sounded better to me on my setup.

Ok, so one last example. I decided to pop in "Snakes On A Plane" DVD. S#%&ty pic on that one and it includes a s#%&ty Dolby 2.0 track. I select it. I apply Dolby Surround to track. It bled like a stuck pig. I applied DTS Virtual:X processing to the track and there was no bleed at all. I am using HDMI-CEC. I hit the power button on the TV remote control. Everything turns Off. I wait and then hit the play button on the UBP-X800 remote control. Everything turns back on and the movie starts back up right where it left off and DTS Virtual:X is still doing the processing of the audio. Joy! It's a Christmas Miracle! "Hey, Mr. Know-it-all, you forgot to mention room correction." Oh, f#%k that noise!

Yamaha RX-V6A/TSR-700 views?

 

[Kaskade89052]

How did I miss six pages of this thread? Hey everybody! There seems to be lots of confusion over the Dolby Surround Upmixer and I think I saw a mention of Dolby Digital Plus as a mode rather than a codec.

Yes, Dolby Digital Plus IS an actual surround codec -- not a mode. Good catch.

The new Dolby Surround up mixer is better in everyday than previous iterations of Pro Logic. They ran out of letters with Pro Logic IIz and, I guess, decided against Pro Logic IIIa. It will take 2.0 signals and "up mix" them just as before, BUT, it is now "object based." Without real atmos metadata, it decides which sounds get thrown around the room like a ball. When no height speakers are in use, it also uses an algorithm and makes sounds appear to come from above as best it can after "upmixing" the track provided virtual speakers are set to On with speaker assignments from 2.0 to 7.1.

Different receivers have different limitations when processing Dolby and DTS tracks to this day. Cross upmixing is limited between the two. With every manual available online for all new receivers, one can look up a model they may be interested in purchasing and see exactly what that receiver can do with any given codec. The charts can be confusing at times with asterisks and numbers popping up all over the place with one constantly looking to see what limitations those marks entail. Every imaginable mode applied to every imaginable codec is still not possible today but there are many more options than were possible just a few years ago.

Sadly, as new processes and codecs come along, some processes and settings are left behind and we have all purchased replacement models of varying devices and machines to find that one of our favorite features is gone. As for the new Onkyo models, I can only comment on the new TX-NR6050. I've said a bit and have more to say about it as I've been comparing it to the Denon AVR-S760H and Yamaha RX-V6A in another thread that will be linked at the bottom of this post. . The Onkyo is a slightly altered TX-NR6100 that was meant to update my TX-NR696. There are new features I love about it while I also mourn the loss of a few others.

No, the TX-NR6050 does not have the older "Sound Mode Preset" that many liked in older models. It simply applies the mode last used for the input IF the audio source codec has not changed since last used. There can be frustrating taps to the Movie or Music sound mode buttons when audio codecs change and the mode is no longer the preferred one for the job. Volume levels can be applied for each input source. You can set the level or simply select "Last." Source specific settings can be made for any number of things BUT many of those settings can ONLY be made using the receiver's web setup feature. I still haven't gone through all of them but there are quite a few of them concerning HDMI 2.1 video features.

Dolby 2.0 tracks are such a mixed bag. How well it is processed is all over the place. But, yes, the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural/Virtual:X up mixers can get the dialogue centered BUT Dolby processing can suffer from bleed while DTS does better with a lousy 2.0 track. This has been the case using several different receivers and Dolby 2.0 tracks. Results can and will vary depending on the content and devices used in the setup. Everybody is going to have a slightly different experience.

"You long winded, self important motherf#%ker! "Just tell us how it handles DTS HD Master Audio 2.0!" Ok, ok, for crying' Pete! Concerning DTS HD Master Audio 2.0 tracks using the TX-NR6050, things get interesting. Take "The Greatest Showman." The UHD Blu-ray Disc contains a Dolby TrueHD/Atmos(7.1 lossless core + metadata). It also contains a DTS HD Master Audio 2.0 track. Dolby Surround can be applied to the DTS 2.0 track and all sounds good with dialogue coming from the center channel. Apply DTS Neural:X and things are still very good. BUT, apply DTS Virtual:X to the DTS track in a setup without height speakers and things get much better still. I f#%kin' love it! I'll never play the Dolby track or use the Dolby Surround up mixer ever again on that disc. The DTS 2.0 track using DTS Virtual:X presentation is that good. "Are you out of your f#%kin" mind?!" Nope, just like to get folks' goat is all. I'll also never listen to the atmos track on "Ready Player One" from now on. DTS Virtual:X applied to the DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 track sounds much better to me than the Atmos track. "WTF!" Come on guys, I didn't say it IS better, I simply said it sounded better to me on my setup.

Ok, so one last example. I decided to pop in "Snakes On A Plane" DVD. S#%&ty pic on that one and it includes a s#%&ty Dolby 2.0 track. I select it. I apply Dolby Surround to track. It bled like a stuck pig. I applied DTS Virtual:X processing to the track and there was no bleed at all. I am using HDMI-CEC. I hit the power button on the TV remote control. Everything turns Off. I wait and then hit the play button on the UBP-X800 remote control. Everything turns back on and the movie starts back up right where it left off and DTS Virtual:X is still doing the processing of the audio. Joy! It's a Christmas Miracle! "Hey, Mr. Know-it-all, you forgot to mention room correction." Oh, f#%k that noise!

Yamaha RX-V6A/TSR-700 views?

Well, that pretty much confirms it -- I don't want a new receiver then. I have far too many discs with two channel soundtracks, unfortunately, that we watch a lot, and I can't be relying on a Dolby Surround upmixer to tap into an object-based guess as to where these fucking signals should go.

It's SO frustrating....

 

[lovinthehd]

You're right about it doing the opposite -- but if they would just implement a menu like the old receivers had where you could assign listening mode DEFAULTS (like my Onkyo does) so they switch when detected, it wouldn't be a problem.

Again, this is what my current receiver's Listening Mode Preset menu looks like:

View attachment 52357

I have Dolby Digital, DTS, etc. set to "Dolby D," "DTS," et al so they straight decode those. Under "Digital Format 2 Channel," I have this set to "PRO LOGIC II MOVIE," so it knows to apply Pro Logic II to a STEREO surround signal. Same with the "Digital Format Mono" option (I have this set to "MONO MOVIE" so these tracks go into the center channel only).

Every time I switch the AVR back on, these simply apply to whatever signal is being presented.

Yes, my Onkyo has this menu too, my Denons don't. I don't use it on my Onkyo, tho (nor miss it on the Denons).....it's fine at remembering for particular inputs that I prefer my 2.0 content to be upmixed by whatever upmixer (usually Dolby PLIIx) in whatever general mode I'm in (movie-music-game). Yours doesn't remember such? (I didn't read back thru the thread). Mono I don't run into but once every other year or so....

 

[Kaskade89052]

Yes, my Onkyo has this menu too, my Denons don't. I don't use it on my Onkyo, tho (nor miss it on the Denons).....it's fine at remembering for particular inputs that I prefer my 2.0 content to be upmixed by whatever upmixer (usually Dolby PLIIx) in whatever general mode I'm in (movie-music-game). Yours doesn't remember such? (I didn't read back thru the thread). Mono I don't run into but once every other year or so....

Wait a minute...we may be talking about different things here....

I don't own a NEW Onkyo -- mine is a TX-SR605 from around 2007 or so. As such, yes, it DOES remember every listening mode default for EVERY kind of signal, based on the settings I made in that menu (the picture I provided).

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm sure it's better than 2EQ; I just never used it.



What I meant was, let's say I put on a disc with a two-channel soundtrack that needs to be processed by some kind of upmixer, such as Dolby Surround (again, this used to be handled by Pro Logic) and in order to get these tracks sent to the proper speakers (dialogue in the center, etc.) I need to press some button on the remote to enter a matrix/upmixer mode...

If the next time I turn the AVR on and have to do that with a disc containing a two-channel soundtrack (and each time after that), it would be irritating being that I got so comfortable -- for WELL over a decade now using my 605 -- being able to let my receiver AUTOMATICALLY do this.

2EQ is gone for good reason now I don't think I remember any positive comments about 2EQ....

My avrs do the remembering thing for your described scenario....

 

[lovinthehd]

Wait a minute...we may be talking about different things here....

I don't own a NEW Onkyo -- mine is a TX-SR605 from around 2007 or so. As such, yes, it DOES remember every listening mode default for EVERY kind of signal, based on the settings I made in that menu (the picture I provided).

Mine just remembers it (unless I use that menu and put a rule in that may conflict/override I suppose), my Onkyo is a 2011 model.

 

[Kaskade89052]

2EQ is gone for good reason now I don't think I remember any positive comments about 2EQ....

It was essentially good for measuring two (maybe three) positions in a room, which is all we would have needed it for, but after my installer had a difficult time getting it to work in our apartment living room when we first got the 605, multiple times, I never really experimented with it after that. I dialed in my own trim levels, crossovers and distances and turned the EQ off. Everything sounds great.

My avrs do the remembering thing for your described scenario....

How old are your AVRs again? I ask because there are folks reporting the exact opposite -- that these upmix modes are not recalled the next time such a signal is detected.

 

[Kaskade89052]

Mine just remembers it (unless I use that menu and put a rule in that may conflict/override I suppose), my Onkyo is a 2011 model.

That's probably why -- if it's a 2011 model, then it's most likely as "outdated" as my 605. I am strictly referring to MODERN, up-to-the-minute AVRs out now, because that's what we would buy. From what I am being told, these "listening mode preset" memories do not exist anymore, and, according to the member who posted last above our previous posts, this is all handled haphazardly via upmixers like Dolby Surround, guessing at spatial cues and such to make a two channel signal "fit" into an Atmos space.

It's not really something I am interested in, so I am going to have to milk my current AVR for as long as I possibly can. By the time we ARE ready to buy, there probably won't be AVRs sold anymore, and soundbars will have taken over the market for good.

 

[lovinthehd]

That's probably why -- if it's a 2011 model, then it's most likely as "outdated" as my 605. I am strictly referring to MODERN, up-to-the-minute AVRs out now, because that's what we would buy. From what I am being told, these "listening mode preset" memories do not exist anymore, and, according to the member who posted last above our previous posts, this is all handled haphazardly via upmixers like Dolby Surround, guessing at spatial cues and such to make a two channel signal "fit" into an Atmos space.

It's not really something I am interested in, so I am going to have to milk my current AVR for as long as I possibly can. By the time we ARE ready to buy, there probably won't be AVRs sold anymore, and soundbars will have taken over the market for good.

LOL. I think all the avrs now have the remembering thing. Then again why change avr if you don't need to? Until I go to 4k tvs or install speakers in my ceilings....my older avrs are just fine. I've understood Dolby Surround is a good upmixer, but no experience....and seem to remember at one point Dolby wouldn't allow other sound modes to be used in combination with some of their codecs but has relaxed that now IIRC (and think D&M offered firmware updates for the affected units). I have Dolby PLIIx/z on several units, but don't have a choice to use older flavors of Dolby upmixer otoh (or older versions of DTS' upmixers likewise). I think it would be a good option in the case of Dolby Surround to have a choice to enable the overheads or not, but if its well implemented as many say it is, I doubt I'd care.

 

[lovinthehd]

It was essentially good for measuring two (maybe three) positions in a room, which is all we would have needed it for, but after my installer had a difficult time getting it to work in our apartment living room when we first got the 605, multiple times, I never really experimented with it after that. I dialed in my own trim levels, crossovers and distances and turned the EQ off. Everything sounds great.



How old are your AVRs again? I ask because there are folks reporting the exact opposite -- that these upmix modes are not recalled the next time such a signal is detected.

My Denon 3808 is from 2008, my 4520 from 2012, the Onkyo 370 is from 2011....IIRC. I've seen others commenting on the remembering thing on newer units frequently enough but a glance at a specific manual should confirm or not....but haven't gone back in the thread to see what/who you're referring to particularly....which posts?

 

[Kaskade89052]

LOL. I think all the avrs now have the remembering thing.

It's weird, because many are saying the opposite...

BTW, missed chatting with you during the days of AVS...

Then again why change avr if you don't need to?

Right -- this is the dilemma I am stuck in, because we only would need a new AVR if the HDMI out on our current one is bad (because I need it to double-check settings from time to time; it doesn't pass 4K video, so I'm obviously not using it for that), but we'd also need a new one if/when we add either Atmos ceiling speakers or the front modules.

Otherwise, the 605 is doing just fine for our needs.

Until I go to 4k tvs or install speakers in my ceilings....my older avrs are just fine.

You haven't moved to a 4K display yet?

I moved to 4K, adding a Samsung UHD TV and Panasonic UHD Blu-ray player, but I didn't have to give up my old AVR because the Blu-ray player has dual HDMI outs, so I can run one to the display directly for video and the other to my older Onkyo for bitstreaming the "older" codecs like TrueHD and Master Audio.

I've understood Dolby Surround is a good upmixer, but no experience

Well, if it does what's being described here -- basically "guessing" at where dialogue should go in an overhead Atmos-enabled space (unless I am not understanding how it works) -- I don't know if I'd personally call it "good."

and seem to remember at one point Dolby wouldn't allow other sound modes to be used in combination with some of their codecs but has relaxed that now IIRC (and think D&M offered firmware updates for the affected units).

I BELIEVE -- but can't be 100-percent certain -- that my unit DOES allow you to apply DTS Neo:6 (which is like DTS' answer to Dolby's Pro Logic) processing to Dolby-encoded sources. I never used the DTS modes with two-channel soundtracks, instead always relying on Dolby Pro Logic II Movie mode, but I know there is a music-oriented mode for Neo:6, much like Pro Logic II Music...

 

[Kaskade89052]

My Denon 3808 is from 2008, my 4520 from 2012, the Onkyo 370 is from 2011....IIRC. I've seen others commenting on the remembering thing on newer units frequently enough but a glance at a specific manual should confirm or not....but haven't gone back in the thread to see what/who you're referring to particularly....which posts?

Indeed, the Denons and that Onkyo would be considered from the same "generation," pretty much, as my 605.

I can't recall which posts at the moment, but even on other forums I was being told that these new AVRs will not remember listening modes for specific signals, like the old models would.

 

[lovinthehd]

Indeed, the Denons and that Onkyo would be considered from the same "generation," pretty much, as my 605.

I can't recall which posts at the moment, but even on other forums I was being told that these new AVRs will not remember listening modes for specific signals, like the old models would.

Yep, also have an older pre-hdmi Sony in use, too. It does the remembering, too now that I think about it. I just don't remember any such postings about that feature going away....but will keep my eye out. Think I'll check a few manuals too.

 

[Kaskade89052]

Yep, also have an older pre-hdmi Sony in use, too. It does the remembering, too now that I think about it. I just don't remember any such postings about that feature going away....but will keep my eye out. Think I'll check a few manuals too.

Look at what treb mentioned in the lengthy post above...