Do vaccine refusers have an ethical duty to pay for their own Covid care?

[Danzilla31]

He's doing much better. Doctor thinks what happened is about the time he received the booster he also contracted Covid so he got double whammied.

His electrolytes were off due to dehydration for all of this. So it was monitoring, IV drip, and he's back home taking it easy.

The other stress was my 52 year old brother living with them for the past 9 months and would not get a job, would not do anything around the house, etc... Just being a terrible person and a leach.

They had to go to court November 30th (same day the received the booster) for the ok to evict him.

So a lot going on.

I really appreciate your asking.

Man that's great to hear and hang in there with the family drama God I've been through some of that crap myself

 

[Alex2507]

The other stress was my 52 year old brother

He's still young. Give him some time.

 

[jinjuku]

He's still young. Give him some time.

Going to be honest with you Alex. Based on his physical appearance vs just 3 years ago. Time may not be something he has much left of.

 

[robert diiorio]

I'm certainly not a medical ethicist, and I wonder if we have any such people at Audioholics. But I do have some opinions about your idea.

At first glance, I like your idea. It could result in more people being vaccinated. But, I doubt if medical ethicists would line up behind any effort to refuse treating people, vaccinated or not, for diseases where the treatments are known to help.

I also think the public health vaccination experts would cringe at your idea. They've found that coercion doesn't work as well as persuading trusted local civic or religious leaders to get on board with vaccination.

However, if health insurance companies decide to pay for vaccination in the future, they might also refuse to pay for hospitalization due to Covid-19. But that's a very big IF. Health insurance laws vary widely among different states, and there is no national policy that could cover this. So I doubt if anything like your idea will be implemented. It will come down to politics in each state or at the local level.

Medical care should be given to anyone who needs it ---why has a citizen of the united states become a punching bag if they didn't get vaccinated and needs medical care? With that thinking anyone who gets sick and needs hospital care should be paying the bills for treatment they receive, You cant justify discrimination simply because of a person is projecting anger using the words 'they should pay' or whatever words are expressed.

 

[jinjuku]

Medical care should be given to anyone who needs it ---why has a citizen of the united states become a punching bag if they didn't get vaccinated and needs medical care? With that thinking anyone who gets sick and needs hospital care should be paying the bills for treatment they receive, You cant justify discrimination simply because of a person is projecting anger using the words 'they should pay' or whatever words are expressed.

This is a false equivalence. People are making an active choice that have serious health and financial repercussions.

If you refuse to get the Covid vaccination, get seriously ill, or die, I don't give a schitt personally. Good riddance to idiots.

What I don't want to do is pay for your choices. I want you to get medical care. I want you to get it on the terms you decided. If it's 'Your body, your choice' then great. You get to live with all the results of that choice. I shouldn't have to.

 

[Swerd]

Medical care should be given to anyone who needs it ---why has a citizen of the united states become a punching bag if they didn't get vaccinated and needs medical care? With that thinking anyone who gets sick and needs hospital care should be paying the bills for treatment they receive, You cant justify discrimination simply because of a person is projecting anger using the words 'they should pay' or whatever words are expressed.

As jinjuku pointed out, calling this discrimination is a false argument. The standard libertarian argument against vaccinations for contagious diseases doesn't hold any water – in at least two ways:

1. You're free to act however you want, up to the point where you cause harm to others. A lawyer who frequents AH has put it this way, "You are free to swing your fists in the air, up to where my nose begins". A contagious virus, such as coronavirus, has a considerably longer reach than your fists. How far away from others must you stay so you don't infect anyone else? (If you know an answer to this, there are many who want to know.)
   
   
2. Infectious viruses don't harm only the person (or persons) you directly infect. It's a highly contagious pathogen. It spreads from one person to another, to many others, without limit.

Even if you don't care about your personal health or the consequences of getting extensive medical care, you can easily avoid the responsibility for spreading a pandemic by getting yourself vaccinated. It's not a moral dilemma, it's a civic duty.

 

[Alex2507]

Going to be honest with you Alex. Based on his physical appearance vs just 3 years ago. Time may not be something he has much left of.

I ought to say something ... Maybe like "been there, done that" and more than once if you can imagine. It's taught me not to take a sober future for granted and that even rock bottom has a basement.

Real sorry about your brother.

 

[Auditor55]

This is a false equivalence. People are making an active choice that have serious health and financial repercussions.

If you refuse to get the Covid vaccination, get seriously ill, or die, I don't give a schitt personally. Good riddance to idiots.

What I don't want to do is pay for your choices. I want you to get medical care. I want you to get it on the terms you decided. If it's 'Your body, your choice' then great. You get to live with all the results of that choice. I shouldn't have to.

People die all the time. No one should be forced to get experimental gene therapy just to get medical care.

 

[Trell]

People die all the time. No one should be forced to get experimental gene therapy just to get medical care.

This is an ignorant anti-vaccer argument.

 

[jinjuku]

I ought to say something ... Maybe like "been there, done that" and more than once if you can imagine. It's taught me not to take a sober future for granted and that even rock bottom has a basement.

Real sorry about your brother.

Some people hit their bottom at terminal velocity. I have no idea if that's what in store but I don't see it coming out any other way based on his propensity to do exactly what he wants, how he wants, when he wants, with no care for anyone other than himself.

People die all the time. No one should be forced to get experimental gene therapy just to get medical care.

It isn't gene therapy. It's an mRNA protein inhibitor. Technically the J&J solution is a vaccine. The Pfizer isn't.

I worked at a Biotech firm in the early 00's. I still keep in touch with two of the researchers there. They did virus research on Lentivirus.

While mRNA isn't their specialty it's also not out of their wheelhouse. For one if you have any questions I can pass them on.

Two: The mRNA solutions looked at the protein spike that Covid uses to breach the cytoplasm and deliver it's viral (DNA) payload. They reproduced the spike and integrated it on a benign virus strand. The protein strand then comes into contact with your own cells and they trigger an immune response and that response learns what to look for so when it see's the protein strand in the future it doesn't have to take time to figure it out.

mRNA has been in therapeutic use for decades. Because given your position if you ever get cancer you are fucked because the same reasoning you just posted will preclude you from getting modern cancer treatments because they contain, you guessed it, mRNA.

 

[Auditor55]

This is an ignorant anti-vaccer argument.

I'm not anti-vaxx. I'm anti forced vaccinations. With that being said, what's being given to the people isn't a vaccine, once again, they're experimental gene therapy. Vaccines prevent and stop the spread of diseases. According to reports, those jabs being forced upon the people don't do any of that. The people getting Omicron are the so-called fully vaccinated, oh wait, fully vaccinated now means 3 shots, by this time next year, fully vaccinated will mean 8 shots, which will put a smile on the faces of Big Pharma.

 

[Auditor55]

Some people hit their bottom at terminal velocity. I have no idea if that's what in store but I don't see it coming out any other way based on his propensity to do exactly what he wants, how he wants, when he wants, with no care for anyone other than himself.



It isn't gene therapy. It's an mRNA protein inhibitor. Technically the J&J solution is a vaccine. The Pfizer isn't.

I worked at a Biotech firm in the early 00's. I still keep in touch with two of the researchers there. They did virus research on Lentivirus.

While mRNA isn't their specialty it's also not out of their wheelhouse. For one if you have any questions I can pass them on.

Two: The mRNA solutions looked at the protein spike that Covid uses to breach the cytoplasm and deliver it's viral (DNA) payload. They reproduced the spike and integrated it on a benign virus strand. The protein strand then comes into contact with your own cells and they trigger an immune response and that response learns what to look for so when it see's the protein strand in the future it doesn't have to take time to figure it out.

mRNA has been in therapeutic use for decades. Because given your position if you ever get cancer you are fucked because the same reasoning you just posted will preclude you from getting modern cancer treatments because they contain, you guessed it, mRNA.

According to the National Human Genome Research Institute.

RNA:
Ribonucleic acid (RNA) is a molecule similar to DNA. Unlike DNA, RNA is single-stranded. An RNA strand has a backbone made of alternating sugar (ribose) and phosphate groups. Attached to each sugar is one of four bases--adenine (A), uracil (U), cytosine (C), or guanine (G). Different types of RNA exist in the cell: messenger RNA (mRNA), ribosomal RNA (rRNA), and transfer RNA (tRNA). More recently, some small RNAs have been found to be involved in regulating gene expression.

Messenger RNA (mRNA) is a single-stranded RNA molecule that is complementary to one of the DNA strands of a gene. The mRNA is an RNA version of the gene that leaves the cell nucleus and moves to the cytoplasm where proteins are made. During protein synthesis, an organelle called a ribosome moves along the mRNA, reads its base sequence, and uses the genetic code to translate each three-base triplet, or codon, into its corresponding amino acid.

Please listen to the science of what she's saying. It's gene therapy!!

 

[jinjuku]

I'm not anti-vaxx. I'm anti forced vaccinations. With that being said, what's being given to the people isn't a vaccine, once again, they're experimental gene therapy. Vaccines prevent and stop the spread of diseases. According to reports, those jabs being forced upon the people don't do any of that. The people getting Omicron are the so-called fully vaccinated, oh wait, fully vaccinated now means 3 shots, by this time next year, fully vaccinated will mean 8 shots, which will put a smile on the faces of Big Pharma.

You are anti-facter though. mRNA is not gene therapy. You have every expectation of a reasonable conversation here but you aren't going to be permitted to lie.

Pfizer/Moderna aren't true vaccines like J&J. That's accurate. But they aren't Gene Therapeutics either.

I get a flu shot EVERY YEAR. I wonder why, must be 'big pharma'. I only got one Mumps, Measles, Rubella.

Some vaccines give you life long immunity, some you get every year or in the case of Covid a bit more often. Also this doesn't preclude further refinement and a longer lasting shot.

There are no police showing up at your door so this 'forced vaccination' is bullschitt. Now, and thankfully so, there are more and more painful social consequences to abstaining. I work at a job come January 12th if you don't have the vaccine you are terminated without any recourse of unemployment unless you have a medical waiver. That's not forced, that's you willing to take your chances in a job market that's going to hire the unvaccinated.

 

[jinjuku]

According to the National Human Genome Research Institute.

RNA:
Ribonucleic acid (RNA) is a molecule similar to DNA. Unlike DNA, RNA is single-stranded. An RNA strand has a backbone made of alternating sugar (ribose) and phosphate groups. Attached to each sugar is one of four bases--adenine (A), uracil (U), cytosine (C), or guanine (G). Different types of RNA exist in the cell: messenger RNA (mRNA), ribosomal RNA (rRNA), and transfer RNA (tRNA). More recently, some small RNAs have been found to be involved in regulating gene expression.

Messenger RNA (mRNA) is a single-stranded RNA molecule that is complementary to one of the DNA strands of a gene. The mRNA is an RNA version of the gene that leaves the cell nucleus and moves to the cytoplasm where proteins are made. During protein synthesis, an organelle called a ribosome moves along the mRNA, reads its base sequence, and uses the genetic code to translate each three-base triplet, or codon, into its corresponding amino acid.

Please listen to the science of what she's saying. It's gene therapy!!

My point is you are posting this and you don't understand that the mRNA in the Pfizer/Moderna solutions don't pierce the cytoplasm wall. It's a bit of the protein strand that is introduced and the body is able to mount an immune response.

Bottom line is by summer 2022 you'll either have had one of the 'vaccines' or you'll have most likely contracted covid.

I love how people seem to think that getting an actual in the wild virus isn't some form of gene therapy in and of itself. That covid itself isn't going to have long term, currently still not 100% known, side effects.

Covid therapies are meant to attenuate symptoms. Keep you out or shorten your stay in a hospital. I've always said that these aren't brick wall solutions.

 

[cpp]

mRNA has been in therapeutic use for decades. Because given your position if you ever get cancer you are fucked because the same reasoning you just posted will preclude you from getting modern cancer treatments because they contain, you guessed it, mRNA.

Basically, the mRNA instructions train the immune system's T cells—white blood cells that help us fight viruses—to recognize up to 20 mutations in cancer cells and attack only those. So I guess people like me who have had cancer are lucky to have these treatments if required or offered. But, Some who hate all things vaccine will just have to take their chance.

 

[Auditor55]

You are anti-facter though. mRNA is not gene therapy. You have every expectation of a reasonable conversation here but you aren't going to be permitted to lie.

Pfizer/Moderna aren't true vaccines like J&J. That's accurate. But they aren't Gene Therapeutics either.

I get a flu shot EVERY YEAR. I wonder why, must be 'big pharma'. I only got one Mumps, Measles, Rubella.

Some vaccines give you life long immunity, some you get every year or in the case of Covid a bit more often. Also this doesn't preclude further refinement and a longer lasting shot.

There are no police showing up at your door so this 'forced vaccination' is bullschitt. Now, and thankfully so, there are more and more painful social consequences to abstaining. I work at a job come January 12th if you don't have the vaccine you are terminated without any recourse of unemployment unless you have a medical waiver. That's not forced, that's you willing to take your chances in a job market that's going to hire the unvaccinated.

I see you didn't listen to anything Dr. Parks stated in the video. She emphatically stated that the so-called vaccines don't stop or prevent the spread of the diseases. In fact, she goes on to argue that they weren't meant to stop the spread.

The Vaxx is not a vaccine, we're calling them that, but that's not what they are, not really. So I can't be anti vaxx for something that's not really a vaccine. Once again, vaccines prevent and stop the spread of diseases. Those shots are proving that they don't provide immunity against Covid. Now, big tech and the CDC have recently tried to change the meaning of vaccines since Covid.

The so-called vaccines are being forced upon people, which is a violation of the 1947 Nuremberg Code. If you threaten people with loss of jobs and the ability to earn living or even as some are suggesting, refusing medical treatment, that's forced vaccination or being forced to take an experimental medical practice, which is a crime against humanity.

The Nuremberg Code (1947)
Permissible Medical Experiments The great weight of the evidence before us to effect that certain types of medical experiments on human beings, when kept within reasonably well-defined bounds, conform to the ethics of the medical profession generally. The protagonists of the practice of human experimentation justify their views on the basis that such experiments yield results for the good of society that are unprocurable by other methods or means of study. All agree, however, that certain basic principles must be observed in order to satisfy moral, ethical and legal concepts: 1. The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision

 

[Auditor55]

Basically, the mRNA instructions train the immune system's T cells—white blood cells that help us fight viruses—to recognize up to 20 mutations in cancer cells and attack only those. So I guess people like me who have had cancer are lucky to have these treatments if required or offered. But, Some who hate all things vaccine will just have to take their chance.

If you want to take the so-called vaxx I would never tell you not. Most of my family have taken the vaxx and I never told them not to. I stay in my lane. However, when people confront me about why I haven't taken the vaxx, it usually ends up in a heated argument.

 

[jinjuku]

I see you didn't listen to anything Dr. Parks stated in the video. She emphatically stated that the so-called vaccines don't stop or prevent the spread of the diseases. In fact, she goes on to argue that they weren't meant to stop the spread.

With specificity I responded to just that point she made.

 

[Trell]

I see you didn't listen to anything Dr. Parks stated in the video. She emphatically stated that the so-called vaccines don't stop or prevent the spread of the diseases. In fact, she goes on to argue that they weren't meant to stop the spread.

The Vaxx is not a vaccine, we're calling them that, but that's not what they are, not really. So I can't be anti vaxx for something that's not really a vaccine. Once again, vaccines prevent and stop the spread of diseases. Those shots are proving that they don't provide immunity against Covid. Now, big tech and the CDC have recently tried to change the meaning of vaccines since Covid.

The so-called vaccines are being forced upon people, which is a violation of the 1947 Nuremberg Code. If you threaten people with loss of jobs and the ability to earn living or even as some are suggesting, refusing medical treatment, that's forced vaccination or being forced to take an experimental medical practice, which is a crime against humanity.

The Nuremberg Code (1947)
Permissible Medical Experiments The great weight of the evidence before us to effect that certain types of medical experiments on human beings, when kept within reasonably well-defined bounds, conform to the ethics of the medical profession generally. The protagonists of the practice of human experimentation justify their views on the basis that such experiments yield results for the good of society that are unprocurable by other methods or means of study. All agree, however, that certain basic principles must be observed in order to satisfy moral, ethical and legal concepts: 1. The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision

So you are not anti-vaccer because the covid vaccine is not a vaccine?

And then you blather on like just another dumb anti-vaccer.

 

[jinjuku]

they weren't meant to stop the spread.

I've also addressed this: They are meant to attenuate if you come into contact.

AGAIN: Most likely by summer 2022 you'll have either had the vaccine or you'll have had covid. Chances are you can get both.

My father, diabetic, 74, was hospitalized over night for observation. He obtained his booster and, most likely, Covid at about the same time. He was low on electrolytes due to de-hydration. He was given IV and no other measures.

He's fine.

I shudder to think what would have happened given his co-morbidity factors if he wasn't following the medically sound measures we now have in place.