Do vaccine refusers have an ethical duty to pay for their own Covid care?

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cpp

cpp

Audioholic Samurai
We didn't have a vaccine in 2020, so shutting down and the other measures made more sense and we now have more than 219M people who have had at least one vaccine injection- big difference, since fewer people will get COVID or have severe symptoms.
What I was getting at is DeSantis even when the spike was out of control in FLA 2021, just did nothing but fight with the counties, schools boards and people still died since a huge percentage of people in FL ( Trunpers) did not get vaccinated and he started this spill that natural immuinty was better while people that listened to him died. DeSantis’ overall stance on vaccinations has become less clear over time. When the vaccines first arrived, he promoted them heavily, especially for the elderly. Now, he has pushed back against the mandates coming from the White House, saying Washington lacks the legal authority. Yep the vaccine came out Dec 2020. Hopefully people in other states are smarter and will not listen to the far right and get vaccinated.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic General
Florida now has America's lowest COVID rate. Does Ron DeSantis deserve credit?
Which U.S. state has the lowest COVID-19 rate right now?

"It’s not California, home of America’s strictest mask and vaccine requirements. Nor is it Vermont, even though 71 percent of residents there have been fully inoculated — the most in the country."
Florida has the 7th highest per capita covid death rate out of 50 states. A chimp could have done better. Literally better. A chimp wouldn’t have fought efforts to control the pandemic.
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
Florida has the 7th highest per capita covid death rate out of 50 states. A chimp could have done better. Literally better. A chimp wouldn’t have fought efforts to control the pandemic.
Florida had the highest risk population. I went to Florida many times during the pandemic and the folks I talked too did not want mandates. Not saying those I talked to represent the entire state but all we’re older retired folks who had no issues with the state of affairs in FL. Heck several were ex vets and said they went to Vietnam and they are not interested in loss of freedom.


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D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
And now Florida has a lower rate then California. Does that mean California is run by chimps? Of course not. Isreal had a very high vaccination rate and still had a big surge. Other countries that are doing well on vaccination are having or had big waves as well.

We're almost 2 years in at this point. And one thing this virus has managed to do is surprise even the experts again and again.

Even with the vaccines and better therapeutic approaches that are developing now. Covid is here to stay like the flu. And it's going to collect its toll in our deaths. Every single year. Just like the flu does.

Most countries have accepted this and are moving forward were still fighting back and forth like it makes a difference.

Are we going to be arguing about this next year or even 4 years from now?

Sooner or later you just have to move forward. How we choose to do that is up to each one of us. We have vaccines better treatments big government can only do so much. It's up to the individual now.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
Florida had the highest risk population. I went to Florida many times during the pandemic and the folks I talked too did not want mandates. Not saying those I talked to represent the entire state but all we’re older retired folks who had no issues with the state of affairs in FL. Heck several were ex vets and said they went to Vietnam and they are not interested in loss of freedom.


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I've seen that in Texas a lot myself. Some of the biggest numbers of people Ive seen not wanting to comply were older. They said the same things too when talking to them. They just flat out had no problem taking the risk. I'm thinking damn when they put it like that what can you really say lol?
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
I've seen that in Texas a lot myself. Some of the biggest numbers of people Ive seen not wanting to comply were older. They said the same things too when talking to them. They just flat out had no problem taking the risk. I'm thinking damn when they put it like that what can you really say lol?
I’m not telling a vet they are not entitled to their opinion. They have taken much greater risks in serving than any regular citizens.


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D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
I’m not telling a vet they are not entitled to their opinion. They have taken much greater risks in serving than any regular citizens.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah I feel you I feel the same way
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Samurai
Florida had the highest risk population. I went to Florida many times during the pandemic and the folks I talked too did not want mandates. Not saying those I talked to represent the entire state but all we’re older retired folks who had no issues with the state of affairs in FL. Heck several were ex vets and said they went to Vietnam and they are not interested in loss of freedom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well as a life long resident of the state of Fl, I've lost close friends that were Vets to covid, and the older people like me, well most of us that I know and play golf and fish with are vaccinated. And it depends on which part of the state you live in. BUt the numbers as of OCt 28, 2021.
 

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Jeff R.

Audioholic General
I would say those are strong numbers for a state that gets a totally bum rap about their Covid stats.


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highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
One way to thin the genepool. ;)
You joke, but look at the expense in caring for people whose diet is so bad that they're diagnosed with Diabetes, Cardiac problems of all kinds, bone & joint problems, morbid obesity, etc. What a terrible way to go through life and a really bad way for family members see people die.

I have been saying that we're overdue for an Ice Age, for many years.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Samurai
I would say those are strong numbers for a state that gets a totally bum rap about their Covid stats.


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Well it is what it is. Sometimes people fail to look at the numbers and just ramble on with a lot of negativity.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic General
And now Florida has a lower rate then California. Does that mean California is run by chimps? Of course not. Isreal had a very high vaccination rate and still had a big surge. Other countries that are doing well on vaccination are having or had big waves as well.

We're almost 2 years in at this point. And one thing this virus has managed to do is surprise even the experts again and again.

Even with the vaccines and better therapeutic approaches that are developing now. Covid is here to stay like the flu. And it's going to collect its toll in our deaths. Every single year. Just like the flu does.

Most countries have accepted this and are moving forward were still fighting back and forth like it makes a difference.

Are we going to be arguing about this next year or even 4 years from now?

Sooner or later you just have to move forward. How we choose to do that is up to each one of us. We have vaccines better treatments big government can only do so much. It's up to the individual now.
California is somewhere around 15 from the bottom right now in terms of total deaths per capita (1st link below). It's not clear to me if a chimp could do better than Newsom, but it seems worthy of debate. Here's my opening argument: I don't think a chimp would dine out at an upper crusty $450/plate restaurant during a pandemic without a mask (2nd link below).

Advantage: chimp.

You didn't mention New York, but I'll go there anyway. I don't think a chimp would have sent people recovering from covid to nursing homes (3rd link below).

Advantage: chimp

I also don't think a chimp would run around groping and kissing state employees (I'd concede I've seen very few scientific studies on this, however).

Advantage: chimp (subject to scientific review of chimp groping behavior)

Now that everyone across the political spectrum is torqued off at me, I do believe politicians of all stripes deserve to be lampooned from time to time. The fine art of insulting politicians seems to be on the decline in this country. Here's an example of the lost art from Mark Twain, albeit not directed at a specific politician: "Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of congress; but I repeat myself." (I stopped thinking of myself as being associated with a political party many years ago, which eliminates a lot of cognitive dissonance associated with trying to rationalize the actions of any given politician)

On a somewhat serious note, there's no doubt that the covid waves come and go. A lot of it is geographic. You can see this on the various hotspot tracking maps. And of course at least some of the anti-mask/vaccine attitudes of a geographic area are "baked in" regardless of who's governor. The number of variables is too long to even try to list here. Still, to my mind, the total per capita death rate is a better overall measure than the infection or death rate at one point in time.

In terms of surges in places with high vaccination rates, Israel did have a surge, but the rate of serious cases among the vaccinated was much less than the unvaccinated. I realize people will debate the effect of the vaccination rate in Israel, but even in Israel only 58% of the total population is vaccinated:

>>>That means only 58% of Israel's total citizenry is fully vaccinated. Experts say that's not nearly high enough. "We have a very large fraction of our population who are paying the price for a small fraction of the population who did not go to get the vaccine," said Eran Segal of the Weizmann Institute of Science, who advises the Israeli government on COVID-19. Unvaccinated people helped fuel the rapid spread of the virus while the country remained open for business in recent months with few serious restrictions. "That will lead to mass infection, which is exactly what we are seeing now," said Segal.<<<

Iceland was also in the news a few months ago as an example of a highly vaccinated country that experienced a surge in cases. However, the infection rate among the unvaccinated was twice as high as among the vaccinated (4th link below). Last I heard, I don't think there has been a single death of a vaccinated person in Iceland. Granted, the population of Iceland is very small, so it's not clear if these numbers can be extrapolated.

Vaccines are not 100% effective, but it's hard to see how Israel and Iceland would have done better without any vaccines whatsoever.






 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
California is somewhere around 15 from the bottom right now in terms of total deaths per capita (1st link below). It's not clear to me if a chimp could do better than Newsom, but it seems worthy of debate. Here's my opening argument: I don't think a chimp would dine out at an upper crusty $450/plate restaurant during a pandemic without a mask (2nd link below).

Advantage: chimp.

You didn't mention New York, but I'll go there anyway. I don't think a chimp would have sent people recovering from covid to nursing homes (3rd link below).

Advantage: chimp

I also don't think a chimp would run around groping and kissing state employees (I'd concede I've seen very few scientific studies on this, however).

Advantage: chimp (subject to scientific review of chimp groping behavior)

Now that everyone across the political spectrum is torqued off at me, I do believe politicians of all stripes deserve to be lampooned from time to time. The fine art of insulting politicians seems to be on the decline in this country. Here's an example of the lost art from Mark Twain, albeit not directed at a specific politician: "Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of congress; but I repeat myself." (I stopped thinking of myself as being associated with a political party many years ago, which eliminates a lot of cognitive dissonance associated with trying to rationalize the actions of any given politician)

On a somewhat serious note, there's no doubt that the covid waves come and go. A lot of it is geographic. You can see this on the various hotspot tracking maps. And of course at least some of the anti-mask/vaccine attitudes of a geographic area are "baked in" regardless of who's governor. The number of variables is too long to even try to list here. Still, to my mind, the total per capita death rate is a better overall measure than the infection or death rate at one point in time.

In terms of surges in places with high vaccination rates, Israel did have a surge, but the rate of serious cases among the vaccinated was much less than the unvaccinated. I realize people will debate the effect of the vaccination rate in Israel, but even in Israel only 58% of the total population is vaccinated:

>>>That means only 58% of Israel's total citizenry is fully vaccinated. Experts say that's not nearly high enough. "We have a very large fraction of our population who are paying the price for a small fraction of the population who did not go to get the vaccine," said Eran Segal of the Weizmann Institute of Science, who advises the Israeli government on COVID-19. Unvaccinated people helped fuel the rapid spread of the virus while the country remained open for business in recent months with few serious restrictions. "That will lead to mass infection, which is exactly what we are seeing now," said Segal.<<<

Iceland was also in the news a few months ago as an example of a highly vaccinated country that experienced a surge in cases. However, the infection rate among the unvaccinated was twice as high as among the vaccinated (4th link below). Last I heard, I don't think there has been a single death of a vaccinated person in Iceland. Granted, the population of Iceland is very small, so it's not clear if these numbers can be extrapolated.

Vaccines are not 100% effective, but it's hard to see how Israel and Iceland would have done better without any vaccines whatsoever.






Can't argue with you on big gov being full of chimps and your right about all the stupid decisions

Regardless whats done is done we can't go back now. I'm going to keep vaccinating and try to be smart moving forward I can only control what's right in front of me.

I've just come to terms with Covid not going anywhere. And I've also come to terms with no matter what government or politicians do in certain areas those citizens in those places are not going to comply. And they were never going to

It is what it is
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Audioholic Slumlord
...

I have been saying that we're overdue for an Ice Age, for many years.
What will that do? Thin the herd? With modern mobility and slow progression getting into an ice age, we could have a global civil war?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
What will that do? Thin the herd? With modern mobility and slow progression getting into an ice age, we could have a global civil war?
We have too many people and far too many who can't fend for themselves. Survival of the fittest is only going to apply for a small percentage of the population and our resources are being stretched thin- have been for quite a while. When being part of a trend is more important than getting a damn job that can pay the bills, people are screwed. When being fashionable is more important than being able to get an education, people are screwed.

How would we have a global civil war if some countries can't feed their people? Why do India and China need more than a billion people if so many can't support themselves and those countries are unwilling or unable to help them?

People are too fascinated by others who have more than can be imagined, yet those who are so fascinated make an effort to do as little as possible to advance themselves.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Singapore won't cover medical expenses for non-vaccinated now.

My 71 year old uncle said "my body, my choice". I told him I accept your proposal and let's shake on it.

When he tilted his head in befuddlement I reminded him that the people that he so cleverly poached that phrase from pay for abortions with 0% government funds. Medically necessary verticals not applicable*

That pissed him off and we had a good go around. I now know why two of his daughters cut him off 100%.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
Singapore won't cover medical expenses for non-vaccinated now.

My 71 year old uncle said "my body, my choice". I told him I accept your proposal and let's shake on it.

When he tilted his head in befuddlement I reminded him that the people that he so cleverly poached that phrase from pay for abortions with 0% government funds. Medically necessary verticals not applicable*

That pissed him off and we had a good go around. I now know why two of his daughters cut him off 100%.
Hey I know this is unrelated but how's your Dad doing he making a good recovery?
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Hey I know this is unrelated but how's your Dad doing he making a good recovery?
He's doing much better. Doctor thinks what happened is about the time he received the booster he also contracted Covid so he got double whammied.

His electrolytes were off due to dehydration for all of this. So it was monitoring, IV drip, and he's back home taking it easy.

The other stress was my 52 year old brother living with them for the past 9 months and would not get a job, would not do anything around the house, etc... Just being a terrible person and a leach.

They had to go to court November 30th (same day the received the booster) for the ok to evict him.

So a lot going on.

I really appreciate your asking.
 
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