Will Probably Need to Replace the SR605 at This Point...Can Someone Help Choose a New AVR Based on Specific Needs?

[snakeeyes]

I am strictly referring to 2.0 (two channel) Dolby Digital soundtracks or 2.0 mono soundtracks on DVDs and Blu-rays that need to be "steered" to proper speakers so they don't just come out of only the left and right mains -- with some older films on DVD that contain "Dolby Stereo Surround" tracks, these are normally detected by Pro Logic and sent to the right speakers for playback (so dialogue comes out of the center, etc.). Likewise with mono tracks, these, too, need to be steered into the center if they're in a 2.0 configuration -- so I am not referring to taking 5.1 tracks and upmixing them to use additional speakers. I am talking about 2.0 signals and how they are dealt with.

Ok trying to follow you. My AVR prior to my current one in 2017 was from 2003 then prior to that 1997.

If you leave upmixers off the AVR will use whatever channels are on the Disc. 1.0 mono. 2.0 stereo. Etc

 

[Kaskade89052]

2017

Things may have changed since then with regard to how these "upmixer memories" function.

 

[Kaskade89052]

Ok trying to follow you. My AVR prior to my current one in 2017 was from 2003 then prior to that 1997.

Yeah, Pro Logic/Pro Logic II is not being implemented in these brand new models; so I would need to find a way to make these so-called "upmixer" systems work.

If you leave upmixers off the AVR will use whatever channels are on the Disc. 1.0 mono. 2.0 stereo. Etc

Right -- but that is a problem when, say, a DVD contains a "2.0 Stereo" soundtrack that has surround information that needs to be MATRIXED from it. In the past, such DVD soundtracks could be dealt with by using Dolby Pro Logic II, where the dialogue would go into the center speaker and the surround channels would get the proper "ambience" information.

If there is no upmixing approach taking place, a stereo soundtrack from a FILM on DVD -- NOT music -- wouldn't play back correctly because everything would come from the left and right front channels, INCLUDING dialogue. This creates a strange "comb filtering" effect that sounds VERY weird (believe me; I deal with that now when I watch Blu-rays with 2.0 mono soundtracks and because my receiver can't properly process DTS-HD Master Audio signals that are in two channels, the whole mix gets sent to the left/right mains).

Now, when it comes to standard 5.1 and higher surround signals, whether it's Dolby Digital, DTS, Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio, yes, I would need an AVR to simply process these and send them out as-is. The problem comes into play when I watch a disc that contains either a one-channel or two-channel soundtrack...and how the receiver steers these.

Come to think of it, it's also a problem when I watch older DVDs --- or even new rentals -- that contain trailers or promos before the feature which are encoded in two-channel....with my current AVR, Pro Logic II kicks in and these trailers/promos play correctly, but if the new AVRs don't do this automatically with two-channel signals, I am going to be forced to listen to the audio from the left/right mains.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Things may have changed since then with regard to how these "upmixer memories" function.

I would be surprised….

 

[Kaskade89052]

I would be surprised….

Well, one party isn't relaying the right information then.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Well, one party isn't relaying the right information then.

If it’s the guy with the integra, I can’t speak to that. Could be operator error for all I know.
All I know is that mine definitely defaults to the last.

 

[Pogre]

It's actually not "my way" of working around the 4K video/old audio issue

I didn't say it was, lol.

Whoever or however (apparently the UHD player manufacturer in this case) it came about it's a nice work around a hardware limitation that extended the life of your receiver. I think that's a good thing. I use a gaming console to play discs so I'm pretty unfamiliar with dedicated UHD players.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Well, one party isn't relaying the right information then.

Do you have a link to the thread? Maybe I can read directly what he’s saying. Just for the possible loss during translation.

 

[snakeeyes]

Yeah, Pro Logic/Pro Logic II is not being implemented in these brand new models; so I would need to find a way to make these so-called "upmixer" systems work.


Right -- but that is a problem when, say, a DVD contains a "2.0 Stereo" soundtrack that has surround information that needs to be MATRIXED from it. In the past, such DVD soundtracks could be dealt with by using Dolby Pro Logic II, where the dialogue would go into the center speaker and the surround channels would get the proper "ambience" information.

If there is no upmixing approach taking place, a stereo soundtrack from a FILM on DVD -- NOT music -- wouldn't play back correctly because everything would come from the left and right front channels, INCLUDING dialogue. This creates a strange "comb filtering" effect that sounds VERY weird (believe me; I deal with that now when I watch Blu-rays with 2.0 mono soundtracks and because my receiver can't properly process DTS-HD Master Audio signals that are in two channels, the whole mix gets sent to the left/right mains).

Now, when it comes to standard 5.1 and higher surround signals, whether it's Dolby Digital, DTS, Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio, yes, I would need an AVR to simply process these and send them out as-is. The problem comes into play when I watch a disc that contains either a one-channel or two-channel soundtrack...and how the receiver steers these.

Come to think of it, it's also a problem when I watch older DVDs --- or even new rentals -- that contain trailers or promos before the feature which are encoded in two-channel....with my current AVR, Pro Logic II kicks in and these trailers/promos play correctly, but if the new AVRs don't do this automatically with two-channel signals, I am going to be forced to listen to the audio from the left/right mains.

Ok well the new upmixer for Dolby is very good compared to those dinosaurs like PLII. It’s almost as good as Dolby Digital Plus but also can upmix to the height channels too.

It also does really well with Music too but if your center channel is not as good as your main speakers you may want to use the center spread option.

As far as the previews of a movie in 2.0 on a dvd, sure you could turn on the upmixer during the previews then turn it off. I’m not sure how different the pure Dolby 5.1 vs the Dolby DSU on top of the Dolby 5.1 would really be. You could leave it on all the time if you wanted. I don’t know if a feature off hand to use the upmixer sometimes then off other times on Yamaha but maybe on other brands.

it’s around 2014 or 2014 that AVRs would have supported both new and old upmixers. Like the first year of DSU. Think Yamaha 1050/2050/3050 did.

My three 2017 Yamahas 2060, 770, & 681 support DSU, NeuralX, and DTS Neo6

 

[Kaskade89052]

I didn't say it was, lol.

From your direct quote:

I also see you've worked your way around to where you can enjoy UHD content and still continue using that avr.

Whoever or however (apparently the UHD player manufacturer in this case) it came about it's a nice work around a hardware limitation that extended the life of your receiver. I think that's a good thing. I use a gaming console to play discs so I'm pretty unfamiliar with dedicated UHD players.

It's not just the life of MY receiver....but a lot of others who are running HDMI 1.3-compliant units that can't pass UHD video with HDR and decode the newer overhead formats. That is specifically why they designed the UHD players with two HDMI outputs.

EVERY UHD disc player manufacturer offers a product (or products) with dual HDMI outs on the back. It's not just the manufacturer of MY player (Panasonic).

 

[Kaskade89052]

If it’s the guy with the integra, I can’t speak to that. Could be operator error for all I know.
All I know is that mine definitely defaults to the last.

Operator error works both ways, ya know.....

But I guess I'll have no choice but to buy one, eventually, and see for myself how it works. In the meantime, I gotta focus on getting this existing cable to stay put in the port or replace it.

 

[Kaskade89052]

Do you have a link to the thread? Maybe I can read directly what he’s saying. Just for the possible loss during translation.

I'll try to grab it.

 

[Kaskade89052]

Ok well the new upmixer for Dolby is very good compared to those dinosaurs like PLII. It’s almost as good as Dolby Digital Plus but also can upmix to the height channels too.

Just out of curiosity, why do you feel PLII was a dinosaur compared to the newer upmixers? Pro Logic IIz -- which my Onkyo supports -- did the same thing by upmixing to height channels if you had any (I don't).

It also does really well with Music too but if your center channel is not as good as your main speakers you may want to use the center spread option.

I used PLII Music mode a couple of times, running it with the default settings -- Panorama: Off, Center Width: 3, etc. -- but to be honest the system this AVR powers is used strictly for home theater; we have an upstairs dedicated two-channel system just for music listening.

As far as the previews of a movie in 2.0 on a dvd, sure you could turn on the upmixer during the previews then turn it off.

No, that's just not convenient -- THAT'S what I'm saying. These systems should do this automatically, but I suppose there's so much CPU power being dedicated to Atmos processing that these new AVRs just can't handle it all.

I’m not sure how different the pure Dolby 5.1 vs the Dolby DSU on top of the Dolby 5.1 would really be. You could leave it on all the time if you wanted. I don’t know if a feature off hand to use the upmixer sometimes then off other times on Yamaha but maybe on other brands.

it’s around 2014 or 2014 that AVRs would have supported both new and old upmixers. Like the first year of DSU. Think Yamaha 1050/2050/3050 did.

My three 2017 Yamahas 2060, 770, & 681 support DSU, NeuralX, and DTS Neo6

As I said, I'm not interested in adding upmixing to fill in additional channels when running 5.1 or higher soundtracks -- I need a system like Pro Logic to take two-channel soundtracks (and mono) and steer them into the proper speakers.

 

[Pogre]

From your direct quote:

I also see you've worked your way around to where you can enjoy UHD content and still continue using that avr.


It's not just the life of MY receiver....but a lot of others who are running HDMI 1.3-compliant units that can't pass UHD video with HDR and decode the newer overhead formats. That is specifically why they designed the UHD players with two HDMI outputs.

EVERY UHD disc player manufacturer offers a product (or products) with dual HDMI outs on the back. It's not just the manufacturer of MY player (Panasonic).

Wow dude. I can't tell if you're somehow offended by my vernacular or you're just being overly pedantic, but I don't care. In fact I don't care if you worked it, the manufacturer worked it, or how many people were affected or helped by the work. I'm just trying to have a friendly conversation using language in the colloquial way most humans do when engaged in these types of conversations without having to worry about my every post being picked apart.

Glad it works, hope everything goes well for you. Have a nice day.

 

[Kaskade89052]

Wow dude. I can't tell if you're somehow offended by my vernacular or you're just being overly pedantic, but I don't care. In fact I don't care if you worked it, the manufacturer worked it, or how many people were affected or helped by the work. I'm just trying to have a friendly conversation using language in the colloquial way most humans do when engaged in these types of conversations without having to worry about my every post picked apart.

Glad it works, hope everything goes well for you. Have a nice day.

I wasn't offended.

I was merely replying to your statement that you DID NOT say it the way you did (you even gave an "LOL" at the end to drive home the point that I was wrong). Someone can't correct another person when they're wrong or misquoting?

And I'M overly pedantic?

With regard to my replies concerning my Panasonic...all I was doing was stating the reasons why those HDMI outputs are there on the new players, and that it's not relegated to just my Panasonic.

At any rate, I appreciate your assistance with all of this, as I do everyone else's; hopefully the cable will hold.

 

[Pogre]

I'm just glad YOUR workaround works to extend the life of YOUR receiver...

 

[snakeeyes]

Just out of curiosity, why do you feel PLII was a dinosaur compared to the newer upmixers? Pro Logic IIz -- which my Onkyo supports -- did the same thing by upmixing to height channels if you had any (I don't).



I used PLII Music mode a couple of times, running it with the default settings -- Panorama: Off, Center Width: 3, etc. -- but to be honest the system this AVR powers is used strictly for home theater; we have an upstairs dedicated two-channel system just for music listening.



No, that's just not convenient -- THAT'S what I'm saying. These systems should do this automatically, but I suppose there's so much CPU power being dedicated to Atmos processing that these new AVRs just can't handle it all.



As I said, I'm not interested in adding upmixing to fill in additional channels when running 5.1 or higher soundtracks -- I need a system like Pro Logic to take two-channel soundtracks (and mono) and steer them into the proper speakers.

I mentioned that my former AVRs were from 2003 so that actually is before PLIIz or X came out. I had the Yamaha RXV3300 and the 630. The 3300 had height channels just in front. It did not have 2 back channels so it was a 6.1 with 2 front heights. Although you had to use DSP modes to use the height channels if I’m remembering right. My 2017 RXA2060 is 5.1.4 Atmos/DTSX

Anyhow possibly the Z version of Dolby was great.

 

[Kaskade89052]

I'm just glad YOUR workaround works to extend the life of YOUR receiver...

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, I believe I've seen those before -- they're like "latches" that lock on to the ports, correct, to keep them in place?



Yeah, if it's an older Audyssey-equipped model -- like my 605 -- it's going to have the features we have been discussing; I am concerned with how these new models behave.

No, more like a flexible end, or one to change the direction of the port. Like these https://www.monoprice.com/category/adapters,-switches,-&-splitters/av-&-computer-adapters/hdmi-adapters.

The new models don't have Audyssey, but rather their own AccuEQ (plus Dirac on the upper models). I don't know how they might have changed their menus/logic for controls, tho, but I'd think most avrs have the memory feature to an extent.

 

[lovinthehd]

I am strictly referring to 2.0 (two channel) Dolby Digital soundtracks or 2.0 mono soundtracks on DVDs and Blu-rays that need to be "steered" to proper speakers so they don't just come out of only the left and right mains -- with some older films on DVD that contain "Dolby Stereo Surround" tracks, these are normally detected by Pro Logic and sent to the right speakers for playback (so dialogue comes out of the center, etc.). Likewise with mono tracks, these, too, need to be steered into the center if they're in a 2.0 configuration -- so I am not referring to taking 5.1 tracks and upmixing them to use additional speakers. I am talking about 2.0 signals and how they are dealt with.

I think you'd still need to enable an upmixer at some point manually for such encoded content in 2.0 (or just leave it playing in "stereo").