Matching pre out gain to power amp sensitivity

[TLS Guy]

Greetings everybody! I posted this query on an ASR thread too but I was hoping to get some advice here as well on a change that I'm in the process of making to my non-dedicated home theater.

Right now I have a Model 7220 and a Model 5000x from Outlaw powering my 7 base layer spkrs and 4 Atmos spkrs; the input sensitivity for the 7220 is 1.64V and for the 5000x it is 1.2V.

I've had the same trusty Marantz unit at the heart of my setup since 2015 but I recently decided it was time to upgrade my AVR/Processor - it couldn't pass a 4K signal (i used the workaround 2nd HDMI cord option with my Oppo - one to the tv for picture and one to the receiver for audio), and while I can decode Atmos I was missing out on some of the the newer immersive sound codecs like DTS-X, Imax Enhanced, and DTS- X Pro. I've been saving up for the last 4 years or so so I decided to forego the climbing of the 'gradual upgrade tree' and just go all out and buy myself a Trinnov Altitude 16. I believe the Altitude's XLR output voltage is rated at 6.15 vrms.

My curiosity is related to the large difference in voltage/gain - I wanted to know if it would be ok to try and pair my existing amps up with the Trinnov once it arrives. I don't know very much about the subject but I believe that such a large voltage difference could impact the noise floor, I'm just not sure about what kind of pros/cons I'd be looking at with the intended pairing. I definitely don't want to damage anything so I thought it would be wise to cover the bases and get some advice from people that are more technically inclined in this area.

I read up on them a little bit and it appears that the Outlaw amps are very similar to ATI amps - the 7220 was actually made in collaboration w/ ATI, and I think Outlaw amps are made in the same factory. On the various forums that I frequent I've seen people using ATI amps as the power stage for their Trinnovs, so my thinking is that the current Outlaw amps would be a decent match for the Trinnov. When I looked around online, the majority of the people that own a Trinnov use higher end amps, however, my budget won't let me flex enough to get something like the matching Amplitude amps from Trinnov that were actually made for the Altitude... it's just more $ than I can realistically do right now since I'm already stretching my limits to be able to get the Altitude. I looked at other brands like NAD, Bryson, D-Sonic, and ATI, but most of them are also out of my price range since I have 11 channels that I have to power in my setup.

I'm not sure if this information would be helpful for this discussion or not, but I wanted to include it as well to help give some context for my specific situation. I usually listen to movies between -8.5 and -15 dB's (or between -3 and 0 dB for a Disney+ stream, lol), at the MLP I sit between 8 and 6 feet from all of my speakers including the Atmos sprs (ceiling is 7'9"), the speakers that I run for the base layer are: Triton 5 towers as the L/R mains, BRX bookshelves as the C and side surrounds, Aon 3's for the rear surrounds and Atlantic Technology IC-OBA in-ceiling spkrs for the Atmos channels. If more info or pics of the room are needed I can provide those as well.

Cheers everyone, and thanks in advance!

I think you have made a serious expensive mistake. The Trinnov has no line outputs, and your Outlaw has no professional balanced inputs.

Not only that, but that Trinnov unit has an output significantly above the standard balanced output which is 2.5 volts.

So output of the Trinnov is 14.2 db above the input sensitivity of the Outlaw. This is going to massively overload the input of the Outlaw.

So you have to "float" the balanced output of the Trinnov to unbalanced, and attenuate it by at least 10 db I would say.

This is certainly possible, but the noise induced by this passive circuit will negate any benefit from spending $17,000 on that Trinnov.

My advice is to cancel the Trinnov, and purchase either a Marantz or Yamaha pre/pro. In your situation that will give better results, and in any event even if the Trinnov was matched with a suitable pro amp, you would not hear a difference.

I use a Marantz 7705, and have for the last two years in a very sophisticated system, and it sounds superb.

Mixing professional and domestic gear like you have done, is seldom a happy marriage.

So, you would need one of these attenuators on each output from the Trinnov. Then you will need a balanced to line cable to go from the attenuator to the Outlaws inputs.

With your rig, which is hopefully a good domestic rig, you can no way justify that expenditure on the Trinnov. That is literally burning dollars and a total waste.

If you want to use that Trinnov, and get any theoretical benefit, then you have to use professional gear from start to finish.

 

[cheyne barnhouse]

I think you have made a serious expensive mistake. The Trinnov has no line outputs, and your Outlaw has no professional balanced inputs.

Not only that, but that Trinnov unit has an output significantly above the standard balanced output which is 2.5 volts.

So output of the Trinnov is 14.2 db above the input sensitivity of the Outlaw. This is going to massively overload the input of the Outlaw.

So you have to "float" the balanced output of the Trinnov to unbalanced, and attenuate it by at least 10 db I would say.

This is certainly possible, but the noise induced by this passive circuit will negate any benefit from spending $17,000 on that Trinnov.

My advice is to cancel the Trinnov, and purchase either a Marantz or Yamaha pre/pro. In your situation that will give better results, and in any event even if the Trinnov was matched with a suitable pro amp, you would not hear a difference.

I use a Marantz 7705, and have for the last two years in a very sophisticated system, and it sounds superb.

Mixing professional and domestic gear like you have done, is seldom a happy marriage.

So, you would need one of these attenuators on each output from the Trinnov. Then you will need a balanced to line cable to go from the attenuator to the Outlaws inputs.

With your rig, which is hopefully a good domestic rig, you can no way justify that expenditure on the Trinnov. That is literally burning dollars and a total waste.

If you want to use that Trinnov, and get any theoretical benefit, then you have to use professional gear from start to finish.

Thank you for your detailed response here, much appreciated.

Could you maybe expand a little on the 1st part though? I'm clearly still learning a lot every day, even after being in the home theater hobby for about 6 or 7 yrs, lol.

Please let me know if my understanding here is incorrect: the Trinnov is fully balanced processor and has XLR outputs - my outlaw 7220 is advertised as being a fully balanced amp and it has XLR inputs.
There is definitely a voltage/gain difference that would need to be attenuated, as you said, but otherwise shouldn't the amp be compatible w/ the Trinnov? As for the 5000x amp, I don't believe it is fully balanced, but it does have a balanced XLR input stage.

I live in a rural area of OH and everything that I went through just to find a dealer within a few hours of me that could help me in getting an Altitude means that I'm very reluctant to cancel it at this point. I was hoping to use my current amps for the incoming Trinnov, but if that is not possible then I do understand and will have to adjust my plans accordingly.

My main reasons for getting the Trinnov were it's top of the line room correction, the remapping technology, infinitely flexible bass management, and endless other ways to tweak the setup to perfection. The Trinnov Altitude is pretty much Pro gear for all intents and purposes, but it is still advertised to the consumer market, I just didn't realize that it would be so problematic to integrate a regular power amp with it.

I currently use a Marantz SR7009 and up to this point I've just been using the unbalanced pre-outs (1.2V) from the Marantz to my power amps (1.2V and 1.64V), but I had planned on switching to XLR cables when the Trinnov arrived.

You said that "in any event, even if the Trinnov was matched with a suitable pro amp, you would not hear a difference." What exactly did you mean by 'not hearing a difference'? A difference compared to what? I'm just trying to understand what you mean so I don't make any additional mistakes going forward.

If I did go through with the Trinnov though, what would be your recommendations for building my system around it?

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you for your detailed response here, much appreciated.

Could you maybe expand a little on the 1st part though? I'm clearly still learning a lot every day, even after being in the home theater hobby for about 6 or 7 yrs, lol.

Please let me know if my understanding here is incorrect: the Trinnov is fully balanced processor and has XLR outputs - my outlaw 7220 is advertised as being a fully balanced amp and it has XLR inputs.
There is definitely a voltage/gain difference that would need to be attenuated, as you said, but otherwise shouldn't the amp be compatible w/ the Trinnov? As for the 5000x amp, I don't believe it is fully balanced, but it does have a balanced XLR input stage.

I live in a rural area of OH and everything that I went through just to find a dealer within a few hours of me that could help me in getting an Altitude means that I'm very reluctant to cancel it at this point. I was hoping to use my current amps for the incoming Trinnov, but if that is not possible then I do understand and will have to adjust my plans accordingly.

My main reasons for getting the Trinnov were it's top of the line room correction, the remapping technology, infinitely flexible bass management, and endless other ways to tweak the setup to perfection. The Trinnov Altitude is pretty much Pro gear for all intents and purposes, but it is still advertised to the consumer market, I just didn't realize that it would be so problematic to integrate a regular power amp with it.

I currently use a Marantz SR7009 and up to this point I've just been using the unbalanced pre-outs (1.2V) from the Marantz to my power amps (1.2V and 1.64V), but I had planned on switching to XLR cables when the Trinnov arrived.

You said that "in any event, even if the Trinnov was matched with a suitable pro amp, you would not hear a difference." What exactly did you mean by 'not hearing a difference'? A difference compared to what? I'm just trying to understand what you mean so I don't make any additional mistakes going forward.

If I did go through with the Trinnov though, what would be your recommendations for building my system around it?

I looked at a bad picture and did not see the balanced inputs at the top. It is balanced with two bridged differential amps in both channels.

The input sensitivity is below the accepted voltage of 2.5 volts for a balanced input. I suspect this was done, as that design would not allow for a 1.5 volt unbalanced line sensitivity and the usual 2.5 volts balanced line voltage would still be acceptable. However the Trinnov output is way out of the usual standard, 2.5 volts.

So this attenuator would be more suitable as it is better to be a bit under, than high. That attenuator will reduce the Trinnov to 2 volts output, which should be spot on.

 

[cheyne barnhouse]

I looked at a bad picture and did not see the balanced inputs at the top. It is balanced with two bridged differential amps in both channels.

The input sensitivity is below the accepted voltage of 2.5 volts for a balanced input. I suspect this was done, as that design would not allow for a 1.5 volt unbalanced line sensitivity and the usual 2.5 volts balanced line voltage would still be acceptable. However the Trinnov output is way out of the usual standard, 2.5 volts.

So this attenuator would be more suitable as it is better to be a bit under, than high. That attenuator will reduce the Trinnov to 2 volts output, which should be spot on.

Ok, copy that. Thanks for the clarification. My main concern was that my current amps could not be used at all w/ the Trinnov, and I was ready to accept that but I wanted to at least explore all of the options that were possible.

With the new attenuator link that you sent me, do you know if that would be compatible w/ the Trinnov's XLR connections? I had been reading up about the Trinnov over the last couple of weeks and saw that there was some debate/confusion about which pin is actually the floating pin or something to that effect. So I'm trying to be sure that I get my XLR connections in the chain correct. The aforementioned thread in question is over on AVS Forum and it covers the topic; I'll go back and try to find it again and post it here if I do.

I've been doing the best that I can over the last 7 yrs to gain a full understanding of all of the complexities involved with executing this hobby correctly, and with some amount of success, but its admittedly a steep hill for a layman like myself to climb.

I've gone from having a very basic 5.1 setup in my late teens and 20's and knowing nothing but the absolute essentials, all the way to the opposite end of the scale in about 7 yrs to have now gained a somewhat fairly decent understanding of things like room treatments, room EQ systems, multi-sub techniques, and room acoustics. So even knowing that I need to inquire about a topic like this shows just how far that I've been able to advance on my quest for better sound, lol.

I've always been somewhat of a laid back audiophile in that I have always loved and enjoyed good sound, no matter if its music or movies. I'm just finally in a position in life where I can actually realistically pursue my goals of an amazing setup to entertain me for the years to come.

I just had 4 20 amp lines run from the breaker box in the adjacent garage area into my den/theater room so that good power won't be a concern going forward. My room is a pre-existing room that definitely has challenges, but I'm excited to achieve a 'new height' in it using the 'Altitude' (pun definitely intended there, lol) and the needed accompanying gear. Any tips you feel like shooting my way to aid me in my journey are definitely appreciated sir.

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok, copy that. Thanks for the clarification. My main concern was that my current amps could not be used at all w/ the Trinnov, and I was ready to accept that but I wanted to at least explore all of the options that were possible.

With the new attenuator link that you sent me, do you know if that would be compatible w/ the Trinnov's XLR connections? I had been reading up about the Trinnov over the last couple of weeks and saw that there was some debate/confusion about which pin is actually the floating pin or something to that effect. So I'm trying to be sure that I get my XLR connections in the chain correct. The aforementioned thread in question is over on AVS Forum and it covers the topic; I'll go back and try to find it again and post it here if I do.

I've been doing the best that I can over the last 7 yrs to gain a full understanding of all of the complexities involved with executing this hobby correctly, and with some amount of success, but its admittedly a steep hill for a layman like myself to climb.

I've gone from having a very basic 5.1 setup in my late teens and 20's and knowing nothing but the absolute essentials, all the way to the opposite end of the scale in about 7 yrs to have now gained a somewhat fairly decent understanding of things like room treatments, room EQ systems, multi-sub techniques, and room acoustics. So even knowing that I need to inquire about a topic like this shows just how far that I've been able to advance on my quest for better sound, lol.

I've always been somewhat of a laid back audiophile in that I have always loved and enjoyed good sound, no matter if its music or movies. I'm just finally in a position in life where I can actually realistically pursue my goals of an amazing setup to entertain me for the years to come.

I just had 4 20 amp lines run from the breaker box in the adjacent garage area into my den/theater room so that good power won't be a concern going forward. My room is a pre-existing room that definitely has challenges, but I'm excited to achieve a 'new height' in it using the 'Altitude' (pun definitely intended there, lol) and the needed accompanying gear. Any tips you feel like shooting my way to aid me in my journey are definitely appreciated sir.

The hundred and fifty six page manual is silent on the question of the XLR configuration. However ALL XLR connections must be compatible.

The Outlaw amp does not is totally balanced and does not have a neutral. The signal pins carry either the +ve part of the waveform and what would be neutral carries the negative part of the waveform. The +ve and -ve parts of the wave form are carried on essentially separate amp. The amps are bridged at the output.

The manual of the Trinnov is silent on basic engineering details. However what ever its arrangement it should not matter. If it does the unit is rogue.

I will say this, that unit is exceedingly complicated. Unless you are a degreed audio engineer or extremely experienced in audio matters you stand zero chance of setting that unit up optimally. Just the bass management alone is very complex and flexible. However it requires an extensive knowledge of crossover theory and implementation, as the orders and slopes are highly adjustable.

They advise that the unit only be set up, by a Trinnov certified installer. Is your dealer a certified installer? If not, you need to contact Trinnov for advice.

If this unit is not set up correctly, it will almost certainly sound worse than even a very inexpensive unit. I see minefields in the set up procedure galore.

I would say set up by a certified installer in your case is mandatory.

 

[PENG]

Greetings everybody! I posted this query on an ASR thread too but I was hoping to get some advice here as well on a change that I'm in the process of making to my non-dedicated home theater.

Right now I have a Model 7220 and a Model 5000x from Outlaw powering my 7 base layer spkrs and 4 Atmos spkrs; the input sensitivity for the 7220 is 1.64V and for the 5000x it is 1.2V.

I've had the same trusty Marantz unit at the heart of my setup since 2015 but I recently decided it was time to upgrade my AVR/Processor - it couldn't pass a 4K signal (i used the workaround 2nd HDMI cord option with my Oppo - one to the tv for picture and one to the receiver for audio), and while I can decode Atmos I was missing out on some of the the newer immersive sound codecs like DTS-X, Imax Enhanced, and DTS- X Pro. I've been saving up for the last 4 years or so so I decided to forego the climbing of the 'gradual upgrade tree' and just go all out and buy myself a Trinnov Altitude 16. I believe the Altitude's XLR output voltage is rated at 6.15 vrms.

My curiosity is related to the large difference in voltage/gain - I wanted to know if it would be ok to try and pair my existing amps up with the Trinnov once it arrives. I don't know very much about the subject but I believe that such a large voltage difference could impact the noise floor, I'm just not sure about what kind of pros/cons I'd be looking at with the intended pairing. I definitely don't want to damage anything so I thought it would be wise to cover the bases and get some advice from people that are more technically inclined in this area.

I read up on them a little bit and it appears that the Outlaw amps are very similar to ATI amps - the 7220 was actually made in collaboration w/ ATI, and I think Outlaw amps are made in the same factory. On the various forums that I frequent I've seen people using ATI amps as the power stage for their Trinnovs, so my thinking is that the current Outlaw amps would be a decent match for the Trinnov. When I looked around online, the majority of the people that own a Trinnov use higher end amps, however, my budget won't let me flex enough to get something like the matching Amplitude amps from Trinnov that were actually made for the Altitude... it's just more $ than I can realistically do right now since I'm already stretching my limits to be able to get the Altitude. I looked at other brands like NAD, Bryson, D-Sonic, and ATI, but most of them are also out of my price range since I have 11 channels that I have to power in my setup.

I'm not sure if this information would be helpful for this discussion or not, but I wanted to include it as well to help give some context for my specific situation. I usually listen to movies between -8.5 and -15 dB's (or between -3 and 0 dB for a Disney+ stream, lol), at the MLP I sit between 8 and 6 feet from all of my speakers including the Atmos sprs (ceiling is 7'9"), the speakers that I run for the base layer are: Triton 5 towers as the L/R mains, BRX bookshelves as the C and side surrounds, Aon 3's for the rear surrounds and Atlantic Technology IC-OBA in-ceiling spkrs for the Atmos channels. If more info or pics of the room are needed I can provide those as well.

Cheers everyone, and thanks in advance!

This post is quite long so maybe I missed an important point. If not, I don't see any issues with pairing the Trinnov Altitude 16. There is no gain mismatch as such in this case if Trinnov rated its XLR output 6.15 Vrms. Your 2015 Marantz is probably a SR7011 and while rated 1.2 V (all Denon/Marantz AVRs are) but they can actually output up to 4 V or higher but at higher distortions. So based on the typical 2:1 output voltage ration for balanced vs unbalanced (single ended), they are practically the same if you use it with your Outlaw 7220.

The fact is, for XLR output of 6.15 V is not high or low, I would say more like typical, or nominal. XLR output vs RCA that is single ended, is usually 2:1. So 6.15 V XLR would be 3.075 V if RCA outputs are provided, but I don't believe Trinnov would include RCA outputs.

Again, there will be no issue for it to work with your Outlaw amps, as long as both are wired correctly for their XLR output connectors and I believe Outlaw knows the correct way to wire XLRs. Why do you think there is an issue, who said that? I believe the Altitude (don't remember if it was the exact model you are getting) was reviewed by ASR, have you read it.

One thing I would agree with TLSGuy, that AVP is not only to be suitable for users who don't may not have sufficient knowledge and experience in audio electronics to operate an AVP that seems much more complicated that the more popular brands. You can hire a professional installer but you still have to make sure the installer has the credential, say authorized by Trinnov is there is such a thing. To me, the Room EQ thing is overrated, in the sense that if you are using it in a home theater, whether it is just the popular Audyssey XT32, Dirac Live, AARC or Trinnov, there is no way you can really say one would sound audibly much different in a controlled blind comparison in set up correctly for the optimal results, let alone "better", that automatically means a highly subjective claim.

On money no object basis, it will be fun to try but for me I would spend the premium cost on things that contribute more to really "better" or just different sound quality.

 

[cheyne barnhouse]

This post is quite long so maybe I missed an important point. If not, I don't see any issues with pairing the Trinnov Altitude 16. There is no gain mismatch as such in this case if Trinnov rated its XLR output 6.15 Vrms. Your 2015 Marantz is probably a SR7011 and while rated 1.2 V (all Denon/Marantz AVRs are) but they can actually output up to 4 V or higher but at higher distortions. So based on the typical 2:1 output voltage ration for balanced vs unbalanced (single ended), they are practically the same if you use it with your Outlaw 7220.

The fact is, for XLR output of 6.15 V is not high or low, I would say more like typical, or nominal. XLR output vs RCA that is single ended, is usually 2:1. So 6.15 V XLR would be 3.075 V if RCA outputs are provided, but I don't believe Trinnov would include RCA outputs.

Again, there will be no issue for it to work with your Outlaw amps, as long as both are wired correctly for their XLR output connectors and I believe Outlaw knows the correct way to wire XLRs. Why do you think there is an issue, who said that? I believe the Altitude (don't remember if it was the exact model you are getting) was reviewed by ASR, have you read it.

One thing I would agree with TLSGuy, that AVP is not only to be suitable for users who don't may not have sufficient knowledge and experience in audio electronics to operate an AVP that seems much more complicated that the more popular brands. You can hire a professional installer but you still have to make sure the installer has the credential, say authorized by Trinnov is there is such a thing. To me, the Room EQ thing is overrated, in the sense that if you are using it in a home theater, whether it is just the popular Audyssey XT32, Dirac Live, AARC or Trinnov, there is no way you can really say one would sound audibly much different in a controlled blind comparison in set up correctly for the optimal results, let alone "better", that automatically means a highly subjective claim.

On money no object basis, it will be fun to try but for me I would spend the premium cost on things that contribute more to really "better" or just different sound quality.

Thank you very much for your response, my hope was that I would get a good number and variety of responses. And sorry if my posts are a little long winded, I just try to give people as much context and info as possible to help give them a good perspective when giving me advice.

I did indeed read the review that Amir did for the Altitude over on ASR; I've been scouring the forums on ASR, AVS and also any other informative articles that I could find online about the Altitude. There are plenty of forum threads and online resources to go over but getting direct feedback from people that understand things in more depth than I do is always a winning proposition.

I've been using a Marantz SR7009 AVR since late 2015 ( i believe the SR7009 was the flagship from 2014 though) and I have enjoyed it immensely, but as the years have passed and my knowledge/goals have also advanced I realized that there were certain things I wanted to accomplish that would be difficult to do with the current rig that I had. I had always planned on upgrading my AVR but after waffling back and forth between some of the more mainstream models like Denon, Marantz, and Anthem, I decided to take the plunge with the Altitude instead so I didn't have to choose between what features I wanted and I would also have lots of room to expand on it's usage as my acoustic knowledge improves.

I fully admit that my understanding of things like acoustic theory, highly customized house curves, and the myriad of other subjects that I know I'm glossing over here, and how that ties in to fully exploiting all of the things that the Altitude can do, will take me a long time to grasp. I'm eager to learn but I fully expect that I'll be spending the next year or more learning about it before I can really get into the weeds with the Altitude's in-depth features. That being said, I always planned on having a certified calibrator help me with it at some point in the process, and Trinnov's customer support is 2nd to none.

In my previous posts here, the AVS thread I was referencing was for the Trinnov Altitude (not the Outlaw) and they talked about confusion about how the pins are wired on the XLR connections, here is the link - https://www.avsforum.com/threads/trinnov-altitude.1516103/page-759 (the conversation continues on page 760 as well)

When it comes to room correction and EQ, I know that it is not the end-all solution for improving a given room and that I should also keep my expectations in check when it comes to how drastic the improvements will be. There is no substitute for treating your room properly and getting all of the other stuff that needs to be done squared away BEFORE going down the EQ rabbit hole.

The goals I have that made me want to acquire a Trinnov were: 1. - having the best room correction available (my room is challenging to work around since it was built in the 80's and is not set up as a dedicated listening room), 2. - have access to their speaker remapping technology (my side surrounds and center channel placement are less than ideal), and 3. - having the ability to tweak each setting to to an extremely detailed degree as knowledge increases. I want to maximize the performance potential of my room and the Trinnov lets me tailor anything that needs to be tweaked to milk out every bit of performance that my room is capable of.

The main concern that prompted my original post was that pairing the Trinnov w/ the Outlaw amps could possibly damage the equipment, or just not be worth doing at all if it resulted in a noise floor that was too high and spoiled some of the benefits I would otherwise get. I just wanted to better understand how to do it all correctly going forward, but as you said, a lot of the things in this hobby can be very subjective. When it comes to home theater enthusiasts you can ask 5 different people the same Q and get 5 different answers, lol.

And $$$ is definitely not 'no object', pulling the trigger on the Altitude was a big deal for me, I was just finally in a place in life where I could afford it without feeling a great amount of shame afterwards...lol.

 

[PENG]

The main concern that prompted my original post was that pairing the Trinnov w/ the Outlaw amps could possibly damage the equipment, or just not be worth doing at all if it resulted in a noise floor that was too high and spoiled some of the benefits I would otherwise get. I just wanted to better understand how to do it all correctly going forward, but as you said, a lot of the things in this hobby can be very subjective.

And $$$ is definitely not 'no object', pulling the trigger on the Altitude was a big deal for me, I was just finally in a place in life where I could afford it without feeling a great amount of shame afterwards...lol.

On your decision to buy the very expensive (for me anyway) I cannot comment because I have no technical reasons to not recommend such a feature rich and high performance AVP. So it boils down to your own requirements and budget.

As to whether the Outlaw amps could possibly damage the equipment, the answer is no, unless they are defective or not used properly.

In terms of noise floor of the Outlaw amps, based on specs only, the 7220 should be fine as far as matching the Trinnov's. The Outlaw 5000X does not even have a noise spec., but based on the measurements of the 5000 that should be very similar, I would bet the 5000X would in fact have a noise floor that would become the bottleneck. That being said, it seemed reasonable (based on the measurements of the 5000) to expect THN+N for the 5000X to be about -80 dB. If that's the case then you should hear hiss and/or hum when you are close to (say within a meter or two) during the quiet passage in music and movies, otherwise for practical real world use, I highly doubt it would be an issue.

If you want to be sure the power amps have low enough noise and distortions, look for one that measured well on the test bench in SINAD (that is same as THD+N with a minus sign). The following ASR chart should give you a good indicator to help you narrow down the best ones you can safely choose from.

Starke Sound AD4.320 Review (Multichannel Amplifier) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Note that I have to include the top 80 devices measured (as of Sept 28 this year) that are power amps and other devices that have build in power amps, to include the Outlaw 5000 in the chart ranked by SINAD/THD+N measured at 5 W output into 4 ohm.

So are you clear with the so called "gain matching" now? That you have nothing to be concerned about as the Trinnov's approx. 6 V rated balanced is nothing unusual. Even the very popular Yamaha and Marantz AVPs can output 8 V (balanced). The actual output you need will depends on your listening habits, the gains of the power amp of your choice, the impedance and sensitivity of your speakers, and your seating distance etc. For example, if you don't listen very loud, have speakers with good sensitivity in the 90's, your 6 V capable Trinnov may never even reach 2 V.

When it comes to home theater enthusiasts you can ask 5 different people the same Q and get 5 different answers, lol.

That is very true! There are many reasons, some are just the nature of the beast, such as how they interpret your questions. It could also be that a lot of people like to help, but unfortunately they themselves may not have the facts and/or enough knowledge to give the responses that make sense.

 

[cheyne barnhouse]

On your decision to buy the very expensive (for me anyway) I cannot comment because I have no technical reasons to not recommend such a feature rich and high performance AVP. So it boils down to your own requirements and budget.

As to whether the Outlaw amps could possibly damage the equipment, the answer is no, unless they are defective or not used properly.

In terms of noise floor of the Outlaw amps, based on specs only, the 7220 should be fine as far as matching the Trinnov's. The Outlaw 5000X does not even have a noise spec., but based on the measurements of the 5000 that should be very similar, I would bet the 5000X would in fact have a noise floor that would become the bottleneck. That being said, it seemed reasonable (based on the measurements of the 5000) to expect THN+N for the 5000X to be about -80 dB. If that's the case then you should hear hiss and/or hum when you are close to (say within a meter or two) during the quiet passage in music and movies, otherwise for practical real world use, I highly doubt it would be an issue.

If you want to be sure the power amps have low enough noise and distortions, look for one that measured well on the test bench in SINAD (that is same as THD+N with a minus sign). The following ASR chart should give you a good indicator to help you narrow down the best ones you can safely choose from.

Starke Sound AD4.320 Review (Multichannel Amplifier) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Note that I have to include the top 80 devices measured (as of Sept 28 this year) that are power amps and other devices that have build in power amps, to include the Outlaw 5000 in the chart ranked by SINAD/THD+N measured at 5 W output into 4 ohm.

View attachment 51046

So are you clear with the so called "gain matching" now? That you have nothing to be concerned about as the Trinnov's approx. 6 V rated balanced is nothing unusual. Even the very popular Yamaha and Marantz AVPs can output 8 V (balanced). The actual output you need will depends on your listening habits, the gains of the power amp of your choice, the impedance and sensitivity of your speakers, and your seating distance etc. For example, if you don't listen very loud, have speakers with good sensitivity in the 90's, your 6 V capable Trinnov may never even reach 2 V.



That is very true! There are many reasons, some are just the nature of the beast, such as how they interpret your questions. It could also be that a lot of people like to help, but unfortunately they themselves may not have the facts and/or enough knowledge to give the responses that make sense.

Thank you for your very good response here, I greatly appreciate it.

Trust me when I say that buying the Trinnov was no snap decision, lol. I had been leaning towards the new Anthems that came out this yr but after hearing about all of the software bugs and glitches that they had I decided to wait. It was during this waiting period that the lure of the Trinnov kept getting stronger and was ultimately too much to resist... I've been saving up $ for years so I finally broke down and decided to really splurge on myself (maybe for the 1st time ever, to this degree anyway) and get the best one available on the market. I wanted to have the best tools possible in an AVR/Processor, as well as having something that I could grow into as my overall skill level with everything improved.

And yes, thanks to your excellent post above I am now clear on the gain matching issue. It's for sure something desirable to have but not essential for proper performance and a fantastic experience.

As for my listening habits, I use GoldenEar speakers for the bed layer - Triton 5 towers, BRX bookshelves for the C and Side Surrounds and Aons for the rear surrounds; they all have 90 dB sensitivity. My Atmos channels are four Atlantic Technology IC-6 OBA in-ceiling speakers and have an 88 dB sensitivity rating. I sit between 6 and 8 feet away from all of my speakers in the room at the MLP, and my normal listening volume using my current rig is anywhere between -8 dB and -15 dB (or 0 dB to -3 dB if it's a Disney+ stream, lol).

I may at some point change out my power amps (especially the 5000x) for something that matches up better w/ the Trinnov but since it is not essential for now, I will just add it to the ol' to-do list for stuff to do on down the road.

The electrician is almost finished with running the 4 20amp lines into my room so I'm stoked to have good clean power in there finally.
One downside of the space I'm using though is that it does not allow me the option of having a traditional gear rack in there (no space to place it anywhere or build it into an existing wall) so I need to redesign and build a new front wall entertainment stand/cabinetry where everything will be located; right now there is a "beta" version of the cabinetry there from where I took my 1st stab at it.

So, between those 2 things (and the myriad # of other smaller things to do, lol) I will have plenty to keep me busy going forward. Just learning the ins and out of the Altitude will be a beast all on its own though...so wish me luck, lol.

 

[PENG]

And yes, thanks to your excellent post above I am now clear on the gain matching issue. It's for sure something desirable to have but not essential for proper performance and a fantastic experience.

That's very true especially if you want to achieve that in a full blow combined HT/music system. To achieve near perfect gain matching you would have to consider every piece of gear in the signal chain, the speaker sensitivity and your listening habits. Even if you can do it you may gain a few dB lower in the overall THD+N from input to output. Based on the information you have provided so far, the Trinnov will likely output between 1.6 and 1.7 V to drive the Outlaw 7220 to its rated 220 W into 8 ohms and I would estimate about 1.4 V will drive the Outlaw 5000X to also about 220 W into 8 ohms.

If you are currently listening with the SR7009 at between -8 and -15 then I would estimate your pre out voltage will not exceed 1 V or even 0.7 V most of the time, except during the highest peaks on the content and/or when you crank the volume to 0. Since the Outlaw amps seem to maintain the same input sensitivity** for both balanced and unbalance input, when you use the Trinnov, the pre out voltage will most likely remain the same as that of the SR7009. That is actually very good because it means you can be sure even if crank things up to get reference level spl, the Trinnov will never get close to its clipping point. For even better gain matching, the Hypex or Purifi amps will be better as they have about 3 dB lower gain than the Outlaw amps so naturally you will get lower noise. Then again, going from say -85 dB THD+N to -105 dB seems like a lot, but it will not likely make any audible difference. I don't know what the min/max volume is for the Trinnov, if it is the same as the SR7009 (it most likely is not the same), then you can expect lowering the volume dial from your current -8 to -15 to about -13 to -21.

** Many power amps such as Marantz (even some older ATI or Outlaw amps) have 6 dB (typical) lower gain for their XLR input to compensate for the higher (2X) voltage.

By the way, as you already know, there are other thing to consider gain matching is that it depends on what kind of scenarios one is thinking for best matching. Take a look of the following scenarios:

a) when I say your SR7009's pre out will be below 0.5 V most of the time, keep in mind that is average, not peak (let's stick with rms regardless). For example, when watching a THX standard movie such as the Star War series, the AVR may output between near 0 to 2 V, and averaging say 0.2 V for you to hear 85 dB average, then during the maximum peak level at 105 dB, the pre out might have to peak to a whopping 2 V! Under the same scenario, the Trinnov would output about 4 V, because the ration XLR to RCA is 2:1. So suddenly your perceived gain matching looks much closer right? That is, about 6 V rated, and it is actually reaching 4 V during the 20 dB peaks in the movie, so the Trinnov would still have some headroom but not excessive any more. Its a little complicated, not black and while that can be described or defined in one sentence.., though of course one can generalize..

b) this one is obvious, now you have an Outlaw amps with gains about 28 and 29.7 (based on Gene's measurements on the older 5000 model), but there are many excellent power amps that offer much lower gains. For example, the currently best measured Benchmark AHB2's gain is selectable, from 9.2 dB to 23 dB and the second best measure amp would be one of those Purifi based amp that has about 25 to 26 dB gain so you can see that if one has a rule to say match the preamp and power amp gain a certain way, one would have either relax that rule, or replace not one but both amps.

Just learning the ins and out of the Altitude will be a beast all on its own though...so wish me luck, lol.

I do wish you luck, but in reality, what you might need more is time, to thoroughly read the owner's manual, do the setup properly to optimize all settings and get the best out of the supposedly excellent Room EQ software.

Have fun, for that kind of money you deserve to have lots of fun setting that new toy up.

Edit: Forgot to ask, does the Altitude 16 has HDMI 2.1/8K, if not, is it upgradable? If you are sure it is not something you want then it doesn't matter.

 

[cheyne barnhouse]

That's very true especially if you want to achieve that in a full blow combined HT/music system. To achieve near perfect gain matching you would have to consider every piece of gear in the signal chain, the speaker sensitivity and your listening habits. Even if you can do it you may gain a few dB lower in the overall THD+N from input to output. Based on the information you have provided so far, the Trinnov will likely output between 1.6 and 1.7 V to drive the Outlaw 7220 to its rated 220 W into 8 ohms and I would estimate about 1.4 V will drive the Outlaw 5000X to also about 220 W into 8 ohms.

If you are currently listening with the SR7009 at between -8 and -15 then I would estimate your pre out voltage will not exceed 1 V or even 0.7 V most of the time, except during the highest peaks on the content and/or when you crank the volume to 0. Since the Outlaw amps seem to maintain the same input sensitivity** for both balanced and unbalance input, when you use the Trinnov, the pre out voltage will most likely remain the same as that of the SR7009. That is actually very good because it means you can be sure even if crank things up to get reference level spl, the Trinnov will never get close to its clipping point. For even better gain matching, the Hypex or Purifi amps will be better as they have about 3 dB lower gain than the Outlaw amps so naturally you will get lower noise. Then again, going from say -85 dB THD+N to -105 dB seems like a lot, but it will not likely make any audible difference. I don't know what the min/max volume is for the Trinnov, if it is the same as the SR7009 (it most likely is not the same), then you can expect lowering the volume dial from your current -8 to -15 to about -13 to -21.

** Many power amps such as Marantz (even some older ATI or Outlaw amps) have 6 dB (typical) lower gain for their XLR input to compensate for the higher (2X) voltage.

By the way, as you already know, there are other thing to consider gain matching is that it depends on what kind of scenarios one is thinking for best matching. Take a look of the following scenarios:

a) when I say your SR7009's pre out will be below 0.5 V most of the time, keep in mind that is average, not peak (let's stick with rms regardless). For example, when watching a THX standard movie such as the Star War series, the AVR may output between near 0 to 2 V, and averaging say 0.2 V for you to hear 85 dB average, then during the maximum peak level at 105 dB, the pre out might have to peak to a whopping 2 V! Under the same scenario, the Trinnov would output about 4 V, because the ration XLR to RCA is 2:1. So suddenly your perceived gain matching looks much closer right? That is, about 6 V rated, and it is actually reaching 4 V during the 20 dB peaks in the movie, so the Trinnov would still have some headroom but not excessive any more. Its a little complicated, not black and while that can be described or defined in one sentence.., though of course one can generalize..

b) this one is obvious, now you have an Outlaw amps with gains about 28 and 29.7 (based on Gene's measurements on the older 5000 model), but there are many excellent power amps that offer much lower gains. For example, the currently best measured Benchmark AHB2's gain is selectable, from 9.2 dB to 23 dB and the second best measure amp would be one of those Purifi based amp that has about 25 to 26 dB gain so you can see that if one has a rule to say match the preamp and power amp gain a certain way, one would have either relax that rule, or replace not one but both amps.



I do wish you luck, but in reality, what you might need more is time, to thoroughly read the owner's manual, do the setup properly to optimize all settings and get the best out of the supposedly excellent Room EQ software.

Have fun, for that kind of money you deserve to have lots of fun setting that new toy up.

Edit: Forgot to ask, does the Altitude 16 has HDMI 2.1/8K, if not, is it upgradable? If you are sure it is not something you want then it doesn't matter.

That was an fantastic amount of detail in your explanation above! It helps me out a lot with the learning process, much obliged.

Do you think that placing some in-line attenuators between the Trinnov and the Outlaws would be worthwhile? It was something that TLS guy had suggested in his responses to me above.

Over the last few days I've actually been looking at power amps online that use the Purifi/Hypex architecture and on down the road when I do eventually upgrade my 2 power amps that is likely to be the route that I will take. And thanks for the Benchmark amp suggestion, i'll chk it out.

And I could not agree more with you about the Altitude, I will most definitely need a lot of time and a bunch of reading/research to really exploit what the Altitude has to offer. The manual will be my new Bible...lol. My current knowledge isn't all that expansive but it will give me a good solid framework to build upon, that way when I really dig in and try to expand my understanding of everything that I can accomplish with the Trinnov it will be a lil easier.

As for the HDMI 2.1 upgradability, if I send it back to them Trinnov is offering an HDMI board swap once the new 2.1 spec is finalized and all the bugs are worked out; there will be a small fee to do so but nothing outrageous.

If this the wrong venue/thread then I can ask elsewhere, but I did have another Q that you may be able to opine on - over on the Trinnov Owners thread on AVS, I see that some people use a Minidsp 2x4 HD to help save on the # of XLR outputs that they use. Since the Minidsp isn't balanced and an adapter would be needed to connect it to the Altitude, are there any special considerations in taking that approach?

I don't really need to worry about the available # of XLR outputs since I have no plans to ever expand beyond the 16 (actually 20 now after the latest update) channels the Altitude offers, but since I already have and use a Minidsp 2x4 HD in my current rig to manage my 5 SVS subs, I had considered that approach. What are your thoughts on using a Minidsp in conjunction with the Altitude?

 

[cheyne barnhouse]

b) this one is obvious, now you have an Outlaw amps with gains about 28 and 29.7 (based on Gene's measurements on the older 5000 model), but there are many excellent power amps that offer much lower gains. For example, the currently best measured Benchmark AHB2's gain is selectable, from 9.2 dB to 23 dB and the second best measure amp would be one of those Purifi based amp that has about 25 to 26 dB gain so you can see that if one has a rule to say match the preamp and power amp gain a certain way, one would have either relax that rule, or replace not one but both amps.

I did a lot of researching while I was at work today and came across this Class D Purifi amp from Apollon that can be expanded up to 11 channels; I just started searching today but it is the current leading contender for when I upgrade my power amps. Wondering what you think of it for my situation.

Purifi 1ET400A Multichannel Amplifier (6-12 Channel) | Apollon Audio Hypex Purifi Premium Amplifiers

www.apollonaudio.com

 

[PENG]

That was an fantastic amount of detail in your explanation above! It helps me out a lot with the learning process, much obliged.

Do you think that placing some in-line attenuators between the Trinnov and the Outlaws would be worthwhile? It was something that TLS guy had suggested in his responses to me above.

No I don' think so. I do occasionally agreed with TLSGuy and in this case I would bet he misunderstood your question/concern. As I explained before, there is no need whatever for you to add an in-line attenuator. Also, it will degrade the signal but the effects may not be audible.

If this the wrong venue/thread then I can ask elsewhere, but I did have another Q that you may be able to opine on - over on the Trinnov Owners thread on AVS, I see that some people use a Minidsp 2x4 HD to help save on the # of XLR outputs that they use. Since the Minidsp isn't balanced and an adapter would be needed to connect it to the Altitude, are there any special considerations in taking that approach?

If they have the need, okay but if not, why introduce another active device in the signal chain. Every time you do that you will add THD+N and potentially other sources of degradation. Take a look of the 2XHD's audio specs:

miniDSP Kits: miniDSP 2x4 HD kit

Input / Output Max Levels	IN: 2Vrms / 4Vrms (jumper-selectable) OUT: 2Vrms
Input Impendance	10 kΩ
Output Impedance	560 Ω

Now compare that to a good preamp specs, such as your Trinnov (if available).

I know a lot of people were convinced they need those devices to align more than 2 subwoofers but I think it depends. I have 5 subs (3 are wired with the surround speakers) in my HT room and I am doing fine using just Audyssey, the App and the free 3rd party UI. There is no way I could stand the Spaghetti junction the extra wires when I had the 2XHD hooked up, it reminded me of the Spaghetti junction in the UK (forgot if it was on the M6 or somewhere else). I plotted numerous REW graphs with and without the thing and just failed to see any gain.

I don't really need to worry about the available # of XLR outputs since I have no plans to ever expand beyond the 16 (actually 20 now after the latest update) channels the Altitude offers, but since I already have and use a Minidsp 2x4 HD in my current rig to manage my 5 SVS subs, I had considered that approach. What are your thoughts on using a Minidsp in conjunction with the Altitude?

I know a lot of people were convince they need those devices to align more than 2 subwoofers but I think it depends. I have 5 subs (3 are wired with the surround speakers) in my HT room and I am doing fine using just Audyssey, the App and the free 3rd party UI. There is no way I could stand the Spaghetti junction the extra wires when I had the 2XHD hooked up, it reminded me of the Spaghetti junction in the UK (forgot if it was on the M6 or somewhere else). I plotted numerous REW graphs with and without the thing and just failed to see any gain.

If it works well to manage your subs for you then obviously it is a good reason for you to use it but you don't seem to have any other reasons to have another one do you? I do have one that was used for a few weeks and then got put right back in the box. I have never tried to sell it, except mentioning I would let it go for C$100 on related posts. Unless someone makes me an offer, I would just let it sit and may be one day used with Dirac Live for one of my two channel system.

 

[PENG]

I did a lot of researching while I was at work today and came across this Class D Purifi amp from Apollon that can be expanded up to 11 channels; I just started searching today but it is the current leading contender for when I upgrade my power amps. Wondering what you think of it for my situation.

Purifi 1ET400A Multichannel Amplifier (6-12 Channel) | Apollon Audio Hypex Purifi Premium Amplifiers

www.apollonaudio.com

In general, you will find the Hypex based amps are better values. If I were in your position I would consider the 1ET400A amps for the channels most important to you and use a second Hypex amp for the surround, height, Atmos speakers.

I never like the idea of jamming so many channels in one box either. To be clear, that's just me, and I don't care about if the sound is audibly better or not and I will go with amps that offer the best possible specs and measurements that I can comfortably afford. The best measured Benchmark amps are more suited for two channel systems. That would be the amps of my first choice but I cannot comfortably afford four of them for my two stereo only systems so I would settle for the cheap Purifi and Hypex amps.

 

[cheyne barnhouse]

In general, you will find the Hypex based amps are better values. If I were in your position I would consider the 1ET400A amps for the channels most important to you and use a second Hypex amp for the surround, height, Atmos speakers.

I never like the idea of jamming so many channels in one box either. To be clear, that's just me, and I don't care about if the sound is audibly better or not and I will go with amps that offer the best possible specs and measurements that I can comfortably afford. The best measured Benchmark amps are more suited for two channel systems. That would be the amps of my first choice but I cannot comfortably afford four of them for my two stereo only systems so I would settle for the cheap Purifi and Hypex amps.

What you are saying about not bothering to add the Minidsp back into my chain makes plenty of sense and affirms the direction that I was already leaning in, so thanks for the confirmation.

I'm glad that you don't think that the attenuators will be needed either, it was just one more link in the chain and another expenditure to make, so if I don't need them then that is music to my ears - literally. (Once I get the new gear all hooked up and set up and start listening to some music that is, lol)

And fwiw, we seem to be on the same page once again about splitting the 11 channels between 2 amps, I like the aesthetics of how that setup would look as well. I think the amp that I linked to above would be good for the 7 base layer speakers, but since my Atl. Tech. Atmos speakers are only rated for a max power of 140 watts I will probably get a 2nd, lower power amp for those channels, and I'm open to suggestions there also.

I am curious on what the main differences would be between a 7 ch version of the Apollon amp that I found when compared to the Trinnov Amplitude 8, or the 8M. They are both class D amps and the Hypex NCore components in the Trinnov don't seem to be all that different from the Purifi modules in the Apollon, but that's just an uninformed lay person's take on them.

Based on your very detailed responses so far, you seem to have a good understanding of electrical engineering theory and are very technically minded. If you don't mind my asking, what is your background, and how did you get into all of this stuff? I'm just a lowly home theater enthusiast that is clearly out of his depth about some of the subjects involved with the hobby, lol.

 

[PENG]

I finally took a look of the Trinnov Amplittude's spec., and read a couple of posts on the AVForum and now I understand why you are concerned.

• THD+N Single Ended:0.0015% - 8Ω, 5W (2dBu)

Based on that, you would in theory be in the sweeter spot in terms of achieving better THD+N at the lower output level. Practically speaking, that may or may not translate into "better" overall because at higher levels, say if you listen to near reference level, sitting far enough and have speakers that have low sensitivity and/or low impedance then things change, and you could suddenly do worse. For example, if the combinations require the power amp to remain well below clipping at up to 300 to 400 W into 8 ohms, then 6.15 Vrms is not going to cut it because it would only drive the 16 dB gain Altitude 16 to 200 W. To reach 400 W, both the Altitude and Amplitude amps are going to be clipping!! So as I said before, this so called gain matching thing is more complicated than some forum talks may led people to believe.

In one of the post, you hit the nail on the head, that is, ideally you need a different power amp that could match the Altitude 16 better. That is, the use of attenuators can get your AVP closer to the sweet spot in its operating output voltage range, but it won't help your power amp at all as its gain will still be 28 dB if that's its spec. One poster, obviously didn't understand the concept, that is, attenuating the input signal by 10 dB to his 29 dB gain power amp does not improve the noise level because the gain of his power amp will still be 29 dB. Again, it will improve the preamp/processor's THD+N at lower output levels, say below 1 V, by a few dB.

Simply put, based on Amir's THD+N vs voltage graph you would ideally want your preamp/processor to stay in the output voltage range of say around 0.5 V to 6 V most of the time, for it to have THD+N no worse than about -90 dB. That is a very tall order though, if possible at all. The only power amp that I know may fit the bill is the AHB2, bridged only. So even to do just the LCR you will need 3 units for about $10,000, not a bad match with the $16,000 Altitude 16. That will get you 380 W into 8 ohms and you will have the best possible overall SINAD for the AVP/Power amp combo, for the front 3 channels.

Keep in mind, we are discussing the theoretical numbers. In practice, even if the Altitude's THD+N increased to -80 dB, or 0.01% at <0.3 V (no idea what the Amplitude's would be at but I doubt it would be better than 0.01%), can you really hear a difference, when any such distortions and noise would likely be buried in your room's noise floor?

I attached two graphs below so you can see that if the best possible THD+N by matching AVP output to power amp input is so important, to the couple of fellows on AVF, they should just pick up a Denon AVR, or for Marantz fans, the SR8015 (much better results than the AV8805A). Obviously they know THD+N is not the only important factor for the best SQ..

The SQ difference they claimed hearing on that forum would most likely be due to a combinations of:
- Not doing tightly controlled tests, ie level matched, pure direct, everything else same...etc.
- Sighted test only.

Trinnov Altitude 16 Review (AV Processor) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Denon AVR-X6700H AVR Review (Updated) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

 

[highfigh]

The electrician is almost finished with running the 4 20amp lines into my room so I'm stoked to have good clean power in there finally.

The fact that the system will have four 20A circuits doesn't guarantee clean power, it just means that available current/Wattage won't be lacking and the rest of the house won't be on those breakers. Clean power may/may not be a reality where you live, due to heavy commercial/industrial users, old infrastructure, the switches/lighting and motors in your house and any other sources of interference, spikes and other noise. You would still need to stop surges/spikes reaching the AV equipment but don't go down the rabbit hole of searching for the ultimate 'power conditioner'.

 

[cheyne barnhouse]

The fact that the system will have four 20A circuits doesn't guarantee clean power, it just means that available current/Wattage won't be lacking and the rest of the house won't be on those breakers. Clean power may/may not be a reality where you live, due to heavy commercial/industrial users, old infrastructure, the switches/lighting and motors in your house and any other sources of interference, spikes and other noise. You would still need to stop surges/spikes reaching the AV equipment but don't go down the rabbit hole of searching for the ultimate 'power conditioner'.

Agreed, just having the proper amount of power that one needs does not guarantee that said power will be clean. But having those lines run into the room is a vast improvement over the status quo; I only had two 15amp lines for the entire room and everything in it... The electrician is also placing a surge protector at the breaker box to protect the equipment in the house when he runs the new 20amp lines, so I think I will be ok in that regard.

I work for a telco company and in the course of my job duties I've learned that the copper network in OH where I live is probably middle of the road when it comes to how old it is, but AEP (and my cable provider Spectrum) has done a pretty decent job of maintaining the copper network for my specific area. I've only lost power twice in over 6 years and that was when bad storms rolled through. We get plenty of weather going through the Ohio Valley where I am, I'm located outside of town about 2 miles from the large Scioto River running by the Portsmouth / Wheelersburg area in OH.

The house I live in is the same age as me and was built in 1983, so it's not super old but I wouldn't call it very modern either. I changed out the breaker box last year for other unrelated reasons, so at least it is up to date as well. The lighting and switches in the theater room are being updated by the electrician as well, but the rest of the house still has all of its stock components from when it was built. I'm not sure if this is a pro or a con, but the high voltage power lines that run through this area are right next to my property (see attached pic), maybe 800 - 1,000 feet away from my house.

And no worries about going down the rabbit hole with a power conditioner - I had read about them over the last year or so when I was researching various AV equipment and I came to the conclusion that it wasn't really something that I was interested in doing unless someone could give me a very good reason to do it and then back that reason up with legit figures detailing their reasoning.

 

[cheyne barnhouse]

So as I said before, this so called gain matching thing is more complicated than some forum talks may led people to believe.

Your last response continues to educate me and sheds some light on the subject at hand, much appreciated sir.

Your remark about things not being as simple as one might assume does make me feel a little better about my confusion surrounding the gain matching issue. My plan is to continue learning as much as I can and proceed with gradually making sure that everything in my equipment chain is up to snuff.

Where my power amps are concerned, they will be changed out for a better match to the Trinnov as soon as I can allocate the funds needed to do so. By ordering the Altitude I blew through most of what I had set aside for such indulgences, so it may be a hot second, lol.

I'm just glad that in the meantime I can still use my current power amps without worrying about the potential negative consequences; this means that I can actually set the Trinnov up in my system and start the learning process of how to use it while my 'home theater fund' accumulates enough for another round of expenditures, lol.

 

[lovinthehd]

@cheyne barnhouse you might like this article on gain structure https://www.hometheatershack.com/threads/gain-structure-for-home-theater-getting-the-most-from-pro-audio-equipment-in-your-system.35677/