Denon8500 vs Anthem1140

[PENG]

Whether it’s Amir‘s opinion or someone else’s, it is all subjective opinions on ”sound quality”.

Unless someone does a true medical-like double-blind study with randomized subjects who are NOT trained to PREFER a certain sound, it’s just someone’s subjective opinion.

We both know it is next to impossible to convince people (may be easier for some people obviously..) on the "sound quality" thing unless there are places everywhere like internet cafe but with the proper studio like demo rooms, etc where people can go to for such medical like DBS they you describe. Otherwise any such discussion/debate will last till the end of time.

 

[Epsonfan]

Marantz

 

[EBN]

Whether it’s Amir‘s opinion or someone else’s, it is all subjective opinions on ”sound quality”.

Unless someone does a true medical-like double-blind study with randomized subjects who are NOT trained to PREFER a certain sound, it’s just someone’s subjective opinion.

There is quite many of those who has found Anthem sounding better in their room than these cheaper receivers with not as high quality room eq, even when both units has been at home and tested with time. Also the reviewers who listen different devices for their main job have found the same to be true. Gene also has spoken highly of ARC saying it`s a must have in review. Maybe they all lie then. It feels this forum is against everything that costs more than Denon and Yamaha. Hopefully Matthews test will be eye opener.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There is quite many of those who has found Anthem sounding better in their room than these cheaper receivers with not as high quality room eq, even when both units has been at home and tested with time. Also the reviewers who listen different devices for their main job have found the same to be true. Gene also has spoken highly of ARC saying it`s a must have in review. Maybe they all lie then. It feels this forum is against everything that costs more than Denon and Yamaha. Hopefully Matthews test will be eye opener.

It’s not that. I am not going to call anyone a liar for having a different opinion on something.

Just like people who believe every amplifier and preamp sound different or have a sound signature of its own.

Or that some people can hear THD of 0.0001% or 0.001% or 0.01% or 0.1%.

Whether its bias or whatever, it’s their OPINION.

I have heard ARC, Dirac, Lyngdorf and Audyssey. So I also have an OPINION just like everyone else.

Person A: I believe this, this is my opinion. This is what I buy.
Person B: I believe this, this is my opinion. This is what I buy.
Persons A & B: Ha ha, so we disagree. That’s cool. No biggie. Let’s go watch some great movies and TV series.

 

[PENG]

It’s not that. I am not going to call anyone a liar for having a different opinion on something.

Just like people who believe every amplifier and preamp sound different or have a sound signature of its own.

Or that some people can hear THD of 0.0001% or 0.001% or 0.01% or 0.1%.

Whether its bias or whatever, it’s their OPINION.

I have heard ARC, Dirac, Lyngdorf and Audyssey. So I also have an OPINION just like everyone else.

Person A: I believe this, this is my opinion. This is what I buy.
Person B: I believe this, this is my opinion. This is what I buy.
Persons A & B: Ha ha, so we disagree. That’s cool. No biggie. Let’s go watch some great movies and TV series.

Well said.. By the way, I came across a good AP article on distortions and posted it here:

Amplifier distortions - what, and how much are audible | Page 3 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

It says:
"Audio Distortion
The primary job of any audio device is to faithfully reproduce or transmit the audio signal that is input to it. An ideal, linear audio device will produce an output signal that is an identical scaled version of its input signal. Anything that alters the input signal in any way, other than changing its magnitude, is known as distortion."

Surely we have to consider other measurable metrics such as DF, noise, DR, Slew rate, TIM, CT etc., but to say distortions has almost no correlation to "sound quality" as a general blanket statement is really misleading..

Do you who is our moderator who might be able to add this link to my amplifier distortions thread?

Thank you.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well said.. By the way, I came across a good AP article on distortions and posted it here:

Amplifier distortions - what, and how much are audible | Page 3 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

It says:
"Audio Distortion
The primary job of any audio device is to faithfully reproduce or transmit the audio signal that is input to it. An ideal, linear audio device will produce an output signal that is an identical scaled version of its input signal. Anything that alters the input signal in any way, other than changing its magnitude, is known as distortion."

Surely we have to consider other measurable metrics such as DF, noise, DR, Slew rate, TIM, CT etc., but to say distortions has almost no correlation to "sound quality" as a general blanket statement is really misleading..

Do you who is our moderator who might be able to add this link to my amplifier distortions thread?

Thank you.

@Steve81 might be able to help us out with that.

 

[PENG]

@Steve81 might be able to help us out with that.

Thanks, if I remember right, last time I asked him he said he wasn't a moderator any more.

Found a video in which the AP person (a product manager iiuc) demo how to use the AP to generate an amp test report that looks like those Monolith and Emotiva posted on their website:

Stereo Power Amplifier Test - YouTube

In each test, he commented on what he/AP would consider "good" and what would be "excellent". The bars appear to be much lower than Amir's, probably more in line with Gene's.

 

[Steve81]

Thanks, if I remember right, last time I asked him he said he wasn't a moderator any more.

You don't remember right

 

[PENG]

You don't remember right

Thank you Steve, can you do it for me then?

I think people interested in knowing more about distortions and came across that thread, would likely want to know how some of the audio tests were done. I am sure Gene posted some videos on measurements too but that AP article has a link to a whole bunch more.

By the way, are you still be a "writer/contributor" though? You are such a greater writer on technical subjects..

PS Just noticed you got it done already, thanks again!!

 

[Steve81]

By the way, are you still be a "writer/contributor" though? You are such a greater writer on technical subjects..

Not anymore. Life got a lot more complicated in the last few years. In truth, I don’t have a lot of new and fascinating things to write about either.

 

[PENG]

Not anymore. Life got a lot more complicated in the last few years. In truth, I don’t have a lot of new and fascinating things to write about either.

Haha may be that's the one I asked you if you still are....before and you told me no.., or I remember that wrong too.
The last one I read was an interview you did with Audyssey.

There is something that I would love for you to write about. If you have 5 minutes to spare, please take a read of the discussion between me and @Verdinut and you will see what I mean.

Need advice on an Integrated Amp to drive Dynaudio Heritage speakers | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

You can see how I struggled in trying to explain to him the difference between the meaning of "continuous" used in the context of bench tests and the in the literal sense that continuous means non stop, or at least 5 minutes based on FTC's §432.1.

I bet if you were to write it, it would be much easier to understand by all members.

Time and again, people read such bench tests and really believe a small integrated amps (as opposed to a big and heavy Krell amp rated truly "continuous" in literal sense) or even a mid range AVR can output much more into 4 ohm continuously, like 1.5X their output spec into 8 ohms based on the bench test results available online.

The only saving grace is that in practice perhaps more often that not there would be no harm done because the contents (music, movies) a lot of people listen to really don't care if "continuous" means 10 seconds or 10 minutes. So to some extent, my point may be moot, but in some specific applications, if the speakers are like the Dynaudio Heritage Special (based on info provided by @TLS Guy that have impedance at 4 ohm or a relative wide range over the low and lower mid range and low sensitivity, their misguided understanding of those bench tests could get them in trouble if they attempt to use amps not officially rated for 4 ohm loads, depending on their listening habits and distance.

 

[Tenno6]

Most of my information come from sources outside of Denon....
Unfortunately..
Denon made a big push for HDMI 2.1 AVRs but failed to validate any HDMI 2.1 performance specifications.....

X-Box 1 and PS5 have HDMI 2.1 output capability and many game users purchased the Denon HDMI 2.1 AVRs as to get the promised upgrade capability for bandwidth and resolution. After 7 months of saying nothing about a fix and/or corrective action Denon announced the single HDMI port adapter box. But still are not saying exactly what HDMI 2.1 issues it fixes.
Being a CEDIA AV seller/installer we sold some of the Denon HDMI 2.1 AVRs, but was caught in the middle of users complaining about the lack of HDMI 2.1 performance and Denon saying nothing. For certain users we refunded some $$ and exchanged some Denon AVRs, the AVRs were returned to our distributor for credit. This story continues as it is up to Denon to provide an acceptable solution that should include replacement, updated HDMI boards to be retroed into customer's units. This solution should also include prepaid shipping costs to/from their service centers. As of now we have not received any further confirmation from Denon. In my opinion, I am very disappointed about their lack of support but I will hold back on making any further public rant...
I just hope that the executive management of Denon addresses this marketing dilemma in an equitable, satisfactory way.

Just my $0.02... .

Honestly these 2.1 denons have earc and the 2.1 TVs also have earc so I’m not really sure it’s a huge deal personally. Just go directly to tv and you get better hdmi handshaking and earc to the denon. Unless I’m missing an issue with earc. From what I can tell it supports sending plenty of bandwidth for full theater systems and the consoles don’t seem to even do atmos/dts:x without compression anyway.

 

[M Code]

Not everyone uses EARC..
Another problem is that Denon AVRs are not HDMI certified so frequent handshake problems arise. My complaint about Denon is that they boasted about being HDMI 2.1 yet they failed to verify any of its features. HDMI 2.1 and its higher bandwidth and video specs are crucial especially for game players, plus a purchaser of an HDMI 2.1 AVR is expecting it to be compatible with future HDMI 2.1 products and at least last a few years going forward.

Bottom line...
Because of the HDMI 2.1 debacle by Denon it cost me some $$ and credibility with certain customers...
And even today they have not clarified and/or confirmed what fixes and when they will provide these...

Just my $0.02...

 

[Bill_C]

Hello, I'm back with results of the Anthem 1140. I received it Wednesday and ran ARC last evening. While I have not heard the sound from the Denon 8500, I can tell you that compared to the Yamaha 2080 and its YPAO, my system now sounds as if gauze were removed, including the three subs, (two are self-powered in the Goldenear 2+ towers). Amazing sound stage, much enhanced and clearer bass, crystal clear dialogue. And the unit is smaller than the Yamaha. While I don't have a comparison to the Denon, I highly recommend the Anthem.

 

[Bill_C]

PS. No issues downloading ARC or running the program. Everything worked perfectly. I ran it first in Auto. When time permits I'll try Professional mode.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hello, I'm back with results of the Anthem 1140. I received it Wednesday and ran ARC last evening. While I have not heard the sound from the Denon 8500, I can tell you that compared to the Yamaha 2080 and its YPAO, my system now sounds as if gauze were removed, including the three subs, (two are self-powered in the Goldenear 2+ towers). Amazing sound stage, much enhanced and clearer bass, crystal clear dialogue. And the unit is smaller than the Yamaha. While I don't have a comparison to the Denon, I highly recommend the Anthem.

I wouldn't use YPAO either personally.

But did you ever compare the Yamaha in Bypass/THROUGH mode vs the Anthem ARC?

 

[Bill_C]

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I did listen using those modes as well as scrolled through all of its listening parameters. I did enjoy the sound of the Yamaha, and in fact, thought it was amazing until I heard the sound from the Anthem.

 

[PENG]

I wouldn't use YPAO either personally.

But did you ever compare the Yamaha in Bypass/THROUGH mode vs the Anthem ARC?

Great question, and wow, "sounds as if gauze were removed"..... , I am not going to buy any Yamaha AVR then I guess.. Good thing many of us don't take any subjective measurements too seriously, unless it's done in direct mode and follow the DBT protocol right? So I guess you don't have to start quit selling Yamaha and start selling Anthem yet.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I did listen using those modes as well as scrolled through all of its listening parameters. I did enjoy the sound of the Yamaha, and in fact, thought it was amazing until I heard the sound from the Anthem.

Thank you for the feedback and good to know you like it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Great question, and wow, "sounds as if gauze were removed"..... , I am not going to buy any Yamaha AVR then I guess.. Good thing many of us don't take any subjective measurements too seriously, unless it's done in direct mode and follow the DBT protocol right? So I guess you don't have to start quit selling Yamaha and start selling Anthem yet.

Don’t we see comments like that every week?

“I changed from this brand to that brand and the sound is so much better.“

It’s understandable.

We all know the drill.

It doesn’t matter if one person or 10 people say it. The key word is “subjective measurements and opinions”. Last Sunday it might have been YPAO. Yesterday Audyssey was the best. Today it might be Anthem ARC. Tomorrow it may be Lyngdorf (McIntosh) or Bohmer (Legacy Audio). The day after tomorrow it may be Dirac or Trinnov. And next Sunday it may be YoMaMa.

When all this backorder business goes away and everything is back to normal, I might be able to sell some NAD, Integra or Onkyo since they now have Dirac Live.

But I have a great feeling the bulk of the business will be Yamaha, Denon and Marantz as usual.