Looking to build Vinyl setup to play my 80's hairband music,

[Mikado463]

Your friend (tho well meaning I'm sure) is wrong and your budget is backwards! Think about it, what is actually producing the sound at the end of your system chain? You absolutely should focus more budget on speakers and less on amplification. Even most of the goofier cable-believing audiophools I've run into will acknowledge that speakers rank at the top of the list in importance for good sound quality.

Agreed and I'll add that 'working knowledge' of your room will also aide in the selection process. Afterwhich one can address amplifier needs / wants

 

[Eppie]

Well I decided to buy the Marantz 2235B completely reconditioned with new caps. Now it’s the speakers, Polks new Reserve series, BMR Philharmonitors.( they company is only 1 hour away from me ) or the Paradigms. It seems to me the Polk L200’s appear to be a Home Theater Speaker as opposed to a 2 channel speaker?

I found the manual for the 2235B here.

I know you said you don't plan to play it very loud, but that receiver is only 35W per channel rated at 8 ohms (the 4 ohm rating will be higher, but it's not stated). The manual says to use 8 ohm speakers when connecting two pairs, so it should handle 4 ohm speakers in a single pair but I would lean towards 6 ohm and 8 ohm speakers with old electronics. With lower power amps you need to take speaker sensitivity into consideration. Higher sensitivity will produce more volume at the same power level. Something probably in the 89 dB per 1W @ 1m area and above.

The Polk Legends are great speakers, but the L200 has a sensitivity of 84dB and they recommend 80W or more of amplification. Might want to see if @shadyJ jumps in on whether the L200 is appropriate for that receiver. Any decent bookshelf or tower can be appropriate for 2-channel music. A home theater speaker would be more along the lines of an on-wall or in-wall to mount next to a TV screen. Plenty of people using ELAC and Buchardt bookshelves for music and they are not that big. The L200 does go down to a respectable 46Hz (extension down to 36Hz) which is deep for a speaker its size.

The Philharmonitor is in the same boat. Sensitivity around 84 or 85dB and likes 50W plus, so 35W might be stretching it if you want higher volumes on occasion. It also has pretty decent bass for a speaker its size. It is fully reviewed here. Which company is close? If it's Salk, they also have some great slim towers, both sound quality wise and finish. I would definitely pay them a visit for some listening sessions if you can.

With a tower you will typically get more bass extension which will be a plus if you don't want to add a subwoofer. The Paradigm Premier 800F for example goes down to 43Hz with extension down to 27Hz. It has sensitivity of 92dB so will work well with less amplification. Knowing that you have the 2235B might change some of the speaker recommendations from others.

 

[Pogre]

I found the manual for the 2235B here.

I know you said you don't plan to play it very loud, but that receiver is only 35W per channel rated at 8 ohms (the 4 ohm rating will be higher, but it's not stated). The manual says to use 8 ohm speakers when connecting two pairs, so it should handle 4 ohm speakers in a single pair but I would lean towards 6 ohm and 8 ohm speakers with old electronics. With lower power amps you need to take speaker sensitivity into consideration. Higher sensitivity will produce more volume at the same power level. Something probably in the 89 dB per 1W @ 1m area and above.

The Polk Legends are great speakers, but the L200 has a sensitivity of 84dB and they recommend 80W or more of amplification. Might want to see if @shadyJ jumps in on whether the L200 is appropriate for that receiver. Any decent bookshelf or tower can be appropriate for 2-channel music. A home theater speaker would be more along the lines of an on-wall or in-wall to mount next to a TV screen. Plenty of people using ELAC and Buchart bookshelves for music and they are not that big. The L200 does go down to a respectable 46Hz (extension down to 36Hz) which is deep for a speaker its size.

The Philharmonitor is in the same boat. Sensitivity around 84 or 85dB and likes 50W plus, so 35W might be stretching it if you want higher volumes on occasion. It also has pretty decent bass for a speaker its size. It is fully reviewed here. Which company is close? If it's Salk, they also have some great slim towers, both sound quality wise and finish. I would definitely pay them a visit for some listening sessions if you can.

With a tower you will typically get more bass extension which will be a plus if you don't want to add a subwoofer. The Paradigm Premier 800F for example goes down to 43Hz with extension down to 27Hz. It has sensitivity of 92dB so will work well with less amplification. Knowing that you have the 2235B might change some of the speaker recommendations from others.

Wow. Hope he didn't spend much for that receiver!

Yeah, that's going to really limit speaker suggestions. I think the BMR would be an excellent choice were it not such a small amp. Especially for your useage. They really fit that old school vibe, look great and are some of the best measuring speakers I've seen, period. It's just not a very sensitive speaker. That in fact, applies to just about all of Salk's speakers in that price range...

I agree the Premier 800F is a good candidate. I'll toss Ascend Acoustics Sierra towers in the mix too. They also measure very well and sound fantastic. In fact I like them so much I bought a pair (with the RAAL upgrade). They're not quite as sensitive as the Premiers, but still not bad at 89 dB anechoic. 90 dB if you can swing the extra for the RAAL ribbon upgrade.

SIERRA TOWER PAIR

Introducing our Flagship Loudspeaker "The midrange on the Towers...is a main event. Inner detail is fantastic even on large-ensemble recordings, and they are free from distortion and retain a hefty amount of dynamic headroom when played at spirited levels." -Enjoy the Music.com Combining...

www.ascendacoustics.com

 

[lovinthehd]

I do not understand the fascination with that series of Marantz receivers....owned one new in that era, it just wasn't all that great, competent, tho but not worth today's prices being asked for such. I also am in the crowd of unless you have the vinyl, I wouldn't start over with it (and I have a significant collection, altho only a small bit of hair in there ) and am still using my tt that I've had for 35 plus years....I just don't use it much anymore as digital IMO is simply better, easier to use and more accessible for content.

Since Shure no longer makes cartridges am also curious what model you got with the tt and what condition it is in stylus-wise.

The electronics and tt still take a back seat to the speakers in any case....but I'd look at relatively sensitive speakers since you got a relatively low-powered amp.

 

[TLS Guy]

I do not understand the fascination with that series of Marantz receivers....owned one new in that era, it just wasn't all that great, competent, tho but not worth today's prices being asked for such. I also am in the crowd of unless you have the vinyl, I wouldn't start over with it (and I have a significant collection, altho only a small bit of hair in there ) and am still using my tt that I've had for 35 plus years....I just don't use it much anymore as digital IMO is simply better, easier to use and more accessible for content.

Since Shure no longer makes cartridges am also curious what model you got with the tt and what condition it is in stylus-wise.

The electronics and tt still take a back seat to the speakers in any case....but I'd look at relatively sensitive speakers since you got a relatively low-powered amp.

I'm with you, and puzzled to understand the hyper inflation taking place in vintage audio. In particular, I really do not understand the high prices commanded for those Japanese receivers. You are correct they are nothing special and are ordinary in the extreme. I never owned one back in the day, and always regarded them very much as entry level mass produced gear.

The prices for things like Garrard 301 turntables I can understand to a degree, but not the prices they are now commanding. I guess some really want to own a part of history. At least the 301s were the high end of their day, and look and feel like it and were made by the Crown jewelers, which they were. They are special and an exquisite example of craftsmanship of years gone by. The giddy prices now being asked are making me nervous about even using the gear. I will and do, but now wonder if I need special insurance policies like you do for diamond jewelry. I honestly find this extremely surprising and to a degree disconcerting. I would never have predicted this.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm with you, and puzzled to understand the hyper inflation taking place in vintage audio. In particular, I really do not understand the high prices commanded for those Japanese receivers. You are correct they are nothing special and are ordinary in the extreme. I never owned one back in the day, and always regarded them very much as entry level mass produced gear.

The prices for things like Garrard 301 turntables I can understand to a degree, but not the prices they are now commanding. I guess some really want to own a part of history. At least the 301s were the high end of their day, and look and feel like it and were made by the Crown jewelers, which they were. They are special and an exquisite example of craftsmanship of years gone by. The giddy prices now being asked are making me nervous about even using the gear. I will and do, but now wonder if I need special insurance policies like you do for diamond jewelry. I honestly find this extremely surprising and to a degree disconcerting. I would never have predicted this.

Well we might be different in regards to Garrard....altho my dad had a Garrard early on, but a low end changer (or maybe for them high end, hard to know). Those 301s are rim drive? I remember seeing one in Willie Brown's house (knew his daughters, he was a big player in California politics, was mayor of SF at the time), he had one of the "linear tracking" versions but a really nice speaker/amp setup to go with it, don't remember what it was particularly but fairly west coast stuff at the time (as opposed to that weird brit stuff ).

ps He had an epic record collection, tho....

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm with you, and puzzled to understand the hyper inflation taking place in vintage audio. In particular, I really do not understand the high prices commanded for those Japanese receivers. You are correct they are nothing special and are ordinary in the extreme. I never owned one back in the day, and always regarded them very much as entry level mass produced gear.

The prices for things like Garrard 301 turntables I can understand to a degree, but not the prices they are now commanding. I guess some really want to own a part of history. At least the 301s were the high end of their day, and look and feel like it and were made by the Crown jewelers, which they were. They are special and an exquisite example of craftsmanship of years gone by. The giddy prices now being asked are making me nervous about even using the gear. I will and do, but now wonder if I need special insurance policies like you do for diamond jewelry. I honestly find this extremely surprising and to a degree disconcerting. I would never have predicted this.

Personally I think vintage simply being equated with old is part of it.....some old was stuff noted for being particularly competent, others didn't fare so well. Being old is not a great attribute in and of itself. Brit or German tts using rim drive never impressed me compared to the good Japanese dd tables....

 

[TLS Guy]

Personally I think vintage simply being equated with old is part of it.....some old was stuff noted for being particularly competent, others didn't fare so well. Being old is not a great attribute in and of itself. Brit or German tts using rim drive never impressed me compared to the good Japanese dd tables....

Back when the 301 was made, there were only rim drive turntables. Garrard did have a questionable approach in that they made borderline mass market turntables and used the profits to make the 301s. All the 301s were sold a loss, as were the 401s.

They may have been rim drive, but there are superbly engineered. They run absolutely true and silent with not a trace of rumble, and have eddy brake fine speed adjustment. They were better than the Swiss Thorens rim drives. The first belt drive turntable was the Thorens TD 150. Mine is one of the first built. This is the formula the Japanese copied, and is still common today.

Loricraft eventually obtained all rights to the Garrard name and trade mark, and made the 501, which is just a continuation of the 301/401 line, but with electric speed feedback control. It is rim drive and a superb turntable. So the tradition from the old Swindon works continued. Retired engineers from that works were involved in setting up production of the 501. The turntable was entirely built in the UK with old fashioned craftsmanship and precision engineering.

Three years ago SME bought Loricraft, which seems to have been an anti competitive move, as they have not produced Garrard turntables.

SME was bought by the Cadence Audio Group in 2016.

 

[lovinthehd]

Back when the 301 was made, there were only rim drive turntables. Garrard did have a questionable approach in that they made borderline mass market turntables and used the profits to make the 301s. All the 301s were sold a loss, as were the 401s.

They may have been rim drive, but there are superbly engineered. They run absolutely true and silent with not a trace of rumble, and have eddy brake fine speed adjustment. They were better than the Swiss Thorens rim drives. The first belt drive turntable was the Thorens TD 150. Mine is one of the first built. This is the formula the Japanese copied, and is still common today.

Loricraft eventually obtained all rights to the Garrard name and trade mark, and made the 501, which is just a continuation of the 301/401 line, but with electric speed feedback control. It is rim drive and a superb turntable. So the tradition from the old Swindon works continued. Retired engineers from that works were involved in setting up production of the 501. The turntable was entirely built in the UK with old fashioned craftsmanship and precision engineering.

Three years ago SME bought Loricraft, which seems to have been an anti competitive move, as they have not produced Garrard turntables.

SME was bought by the Cadence Audio Group in 2016.

I'd still prefer a better engineered dd table than the rim drive/belt drive stuff.

 

[lovinthehd]

Back when the 301 was made, there were only rim drive turntables. Garrard did have a questionable approach in that they made borderline mass market turntables and used the profits to make the 301s. All the 301s were sold a loss, as were the 401s.

They may have been rim drive, but there are superbly engineered. They run absolutely true and silent with not a trace of rumble, and have eddy brake fine speed adjustment. They were better than the Swiss Thorens rim drives. The first belt drive turntable was the Thorens TD 150. Mine is one of the first built. This is the formula the Japanese copied, and is still common today.

Loricraft eventually obtained all rights to the Garrard name and trade mark, and made the 501, which is just a continuation of the 301/401 line, but with electric speed feedback control. It is rim drive and a superb turntable. So the tradition from the old Swindon works continued. Retired engineers from that works were involved in setting up production of the 501. The turntable was entirely built in the UK with old fashioned craftsmanship and precision engineering.

Three years ago SME bought Loricraft, which seems to have been an anti competitive move, as they have not produced Garrard turntables.

SME was bought by the Cadence Audio Group in 2016.

Got any measurements to back this up? Hard to imagine rim drive being that accurate or noise-less.

 

[TLS Guy]

Got any measurements to back this up? Hard to imagine rim drive being that accurate or noise-less.

A lot of people have said that, however they run smooth and silent, and you hear not a trace of rumble. My rig has an excellent bass response and there is zero rumble audible.

I can assure you I would not have kept a substandard turntable in use all these years. Built like a tank is the correct description for a Garrard 301!

 

[highfigh]

I'm with you, and puzzled to understand the hyper inflation taking place in vintage audio. In particular, I really do not understand the high prices commanded for those Japanese receivers. You are correct they are nothing special and are ordinary in the extreme. I never owned one back in the day, and always regarded them very much as entry level mass produced gear.

The prices for things like Garrard 301 turntables I can understand to a degree, but not the prices they are now commanding. I guess some really want to own a part of history. At least the 301s were the high end of their day, and look and feel like it and were made by the Crown jewelers, which they were. They are special and an exquisite example of craftsmanship of years gone by. The giddy prices now being asked are making me nervous about even using the gear. I will and do, but now wonder if I need special insurance policies like you do for diamond jewelry. I honestly find this extremely surprising and to a degree disconcerting. I would never have predicted this.

It may be that some of the people paying the price have made a lot of cash with their investments, so they have decided that they need to balance the books. I see Pioneer SX-980 receivers selling for over a grand- OK, someone can pay what they want but that wasn't 'special' when it was new, it's not 'special' now. It's old and, as someone who sold them when they were a current model, I can say that with certainty and a little bit of pain caused by the fact that more than forty years have passed since I started selling audio.

The part that annoys me is the rampant practice of 'recapping' everything in sight. If it works and doesn't hum or do something wrong, it doesn't need this. Sure, part values drift, but they're usually in tolerance- these aren't precision instruments, after all. Tuners are about as precise as it gets, in analog audio.

 

[highfigh]

Got any measurements to back this up? Hard to imagine rim drive being that accurate or noise-less.

Well, once the platter is turning, there's not a lot that would cause the speed to vary, so the momentum of the platter (which should be relatively heavy) will help. If the spindle bearing is decent, there's really not much loss in speed and being driven at the outer rim, any variation from the motor should be minimal. As long as the platter & tonearm are well-isolated from the motor/s mounting and the rubber drive wheel is soft, it should be quiet. The cheap knock-offs (BSR in particular) were crap, but with the speakers of that time that would be in a system commensurate with its level of quality, rumble wouldn't have been audible, anyway.

Garrard 301. The Classic Transcription Turntable

Garrard 301. The Classic Transcription Turntable

www.gramophonemuseum.com

The Garrard 301 is back! (sort of) | High End 2019

Hi-Fi news, gear reviews, and interviews

parttimeaudiophile.com

 

[Eppie]

It may be that some of the people paying the price have made a lot of cash with their investments, so they have decided that they need to balance the books. I see Pioneer SX-980 receivers selling for over a grand- OK, someone can pay what they want but that wasn't 'special' when it was new, it's not 'special' now. It's old and, as someone who sold them when they were a current model, I can say that with certainty and a little bit of pain caused by the fact that more than forty years have passed since I started selling audio.

The part that annoys me is the rampant practice of 'recapping' everything in sight. If it works and doesn't hum or do something wrong, it doesn't need this. Sure, part values drift, but they're usually in tolerance- these aren't precision instruments, after all. Tuners are about as precise as it gets, in analog audio.

Yeah, I see recapped gear all over the marketplace and I don't get it either. I just restored my wife's Pioneer SX-424 and all it needed were LED lamps to replace the fuse style lamps in the display, a new stereo indicator lamp and new power cord. None of the caps are bulging and it works and sounds fine. Hooked it up to a pair of vintage KEF 103.2 reference speakers and sounded pretty damn good for only 12W per channel, but I'm not shaking any walls with this one. Would be fine for a small apartment or den though. They sold for $200 new and now sell for $250. I've seen people ask $400 for mint condition ones. Pretty sure I'll be able to get $200 for it. Cleaned up real nice and the LED lamps bring out the blue in the display.

 

[scottyb70]

Well I hooked up the Marantz 6300 to the Yamaha RX-v2092 with Jenson Model 5 speakers and had to turn the volume all the way up to hear it at a reasonable sound. Same thing happenend when I hooked it up to my Denon AVR 4311Ci and Atlantic Technology Speakers Any ideas?

 

[lovinthehd]

Well I hooked up the Marantz 6300 to the Yamaha RX-v2092 with Jenson Model 5 speakers and had to turn the volume all the way up to hear it at a reasonable sound. Same thing happenend when I hooked it up to my Denon AVR 4311Ci and Atlantic Technology Speakers Any ideas?

What cartridge is it? You are using the phono inputs on each avr? Cartridges have generally low output but some cartridges are lower than others. Some avrs (pretty sure your Denon has it, not sure about your Yamaha) have an adjustment you can make to input level to bring it up some to help, too.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well I hooked up the Marantz 6300 to the Yamaha RX-v2092 with Jenson Model 5 speakers and had to turn the volume all the way up to hear it at a reasonable sound. Same thing happenend when I hooked it up to my Denon AVR 4311Ci and Atlantic Technology Speakers Any ideas?

Turntables need to be connected to a high gain RIAA equalized input. Cartridges also come in two types basically, moving magnet and moving iron. These need a phono input as I described. Moving coil cartridges require a moving coil preamp or MC transformers.

So we need to know what cartridge you are using, and what input you have it connected to. Clearly you have it connected to the wrong specification of input.

 

[lovinthehd]

A lot of people have said that, however they run smooth and silent, and you hear not a trace of rumble. My rig has an excellent bass response and there is zero rumble audible.

I can assure you I would not have kept a substandard turntable in use all these years. Built like a tank is the correct description for a Garrard 301!

Was curious so looked up the spec in the meantime at vinylengine.com. Better than I expected.

 

[Eppie]

Well I hooked up the Marantz 6300 to the Yamaha RX-v2092 with Jenson Model 5 speakers and had to turn the volume all the way up to hear it at a reasonable sound. Same thing happenend when I hooked it up to my Denon AVR 4311Ci and Atlantic Technology Speakers Any ideas?

Both of those AVRs have a phono input, so I doubt that it was connected incorrectly. There should be a ground wire on the phono cable as well. I asked earlier in this thread what model Shure cartridge you have? If the stylus has seen a lot of wear, you may want to replace it anyway. An Ortofon 2M Red is only $100 or upgrade to the Blue stylus if you want slightly better dynamics. There is also a 2M Bronze and Black with an improved cartridge if you want to go whole hog but with classic rock I doubt that you would notice the difference between the Red/Blue vs Bronze/Black.

 

[TLS Guy]

Was curious so looked up the spec in the meantime at vinylengine.com. Better than I expected.

Yes, one of my turntables has the original hard cover user manual. They are both series 2 production and were built between 1957 and 1965. I bought one in 1972, and the other in 1973. According to the user manual the rumble was below what they could measure then. Wow is less than 0.2%. Flutter which is a good surrogate for rumble is less than 0.05%. I paid $50 CDN for the first and I'm not sure I paid anything for the second!

How things have changed! In addition to detailed instructions and mounting template, the manual contains detailed engineering drawings of the entire turntable, including engineering drawings of every single part with part number!

Now you know why I get so hot about the state of things now. Small wonder there is less interest in the hobby now than back then.

We had a 301 at the OP since 1958. We did have a good bass response. My mother insisted that the gear not be seen. On the left we had an eighteen century corner cabinet with an antique Japanese china display. Underneath was a corner ported cabinet containing a KEF B 139 for the bass. The door of the antique corner cabinet was moved below it and close over the speaker and hide it from view. On the right side, there was TQAT build into a brick pillar in that corner of the room. That also had door that closed when not in use. The electronics and turntable were built into an antique eighteenth century oak clothes chest.

The house was early eighteenth century with the structural beam being on old ship's keel. So the audio system was installed without detracting from the period of the room. Anyhow those KEF B139s are capable of a very good bass response. I have six in use hear. Four in my rear backs, and two in my family room speakers. The Old Parsonage Frindsbury is a grade II listed building, so has the same architectural merit as the Royal Albert Hall, which is also a grade II listed building. So Hi-Fi had to heard and not seen! I am glad to say the new owners are devoted to the home.