Is AVR-4400H good enough KEF R11?

[john20182050]

My current 7.1 config has the following
Denon AVR-4400H
Front: KEF R500
Center: KEF R200c
Back and surround: JBL 530
Sub: Monolith 15 inch

I want to upgrade my front speaker from KEF R500 to KEP R11. Is AVR-4400H good enough or do I need to upgrade my receiver as well?

 

[ryanosaur]

Is there anything wrong with your receiver? Why would you need to upgrade?

 

[john20182050]

Is there anything wrong with your receiver? Why would you need to upgrade?

No, the receiver is fine. Wondering AVR-4400H good enough KEP R11 because right now I use it with KEF R500.

 

[ryanosaur]

There is no reason to change your receiver if you buy those speakers. Someone somewhere may argue that “it’s just a Denon and isn’t worthy” but that’s just audio-fool bs.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

There is no reason to change your receiver if you buy those speakers. Someone somewhere may argue that “it’s just a Denon and isn’t worthy” but that’s just audio-fool bs.

I agree. By all accounts I’ve seen, the 4400 is very capable. I personally too much is made of the “take the load off the AVR” thing with an amp. But if for some reason the 4400 isn’t enough, an amp for the mains at least, is a good option.

 

[PENG]

My current 7.1 config has the following
Denon AVR-4400H
Front: KEF R500
Center: KEF R200c
Back and surround: JBL 530
Sub: Monolith 15 inch

I want to upgrade my front speaker from KEF R500 to KEP R11. Is AVR-4400H good enough or do I need to upgrade my receiver as well?

If your listening environment and habits remain the same you should be find with the X4400H. The R11 is definitively considered 4 Ohms nominal, same as the R500. It's sensitivity is about 2 dB higher so it may actually be a touch easier to drive. I think they will sound very similar to the R500 in a small to small medium size room.

In either case, it really depends on your power need (distance, desired SPL?). If you sit far enough and listen to high enough SPL then you need an external power amp, no AVRs can help much regardless of price. For power amp, you should go for something rated at least 3 dB more output than your X4400H, such as the Parasound A21+, Anthem MCA 225, AT52, March Audio P502.

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: KEF R11 Loudspeakers
SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com

R11:

R500:

 

[john20182050]

I agree. By all accounts I’ve seen, the 4400 is very capable. I personally too much is made of the “take the load off the AVR” thing with an amp. But if for some reason the 4400 isn’t enough, an amp for the mains at least, is a good option.

Which power amp or stereo amp I should buy?

 

[john20182050]

If your listening environment and habits remain the same you should be find with the X4400H. The R11 is definitively considered 4 Ohms nominal, same as the R500. It's sensitivity is about 2 dB higher so it may actually be a touch easier to drive. I think they will sound very similar to the R500 in a small to small medium size room.

In either case, it really depends on your power need (distance, desired SPL?). If you sit far enough and listen to high enough SPL then you need an external power amp, no AVRs can help much regardless of price. For power amp, you should go for something rated at least 3 dB more output than your X4400H, such as the Parasound A21+, Anthem MCA 225, AT52, March Audio P502.

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: KEF R11 Loudspeakers
SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com

R11:

View attachment 46854


R500:

View attachment 46853

Is it better to buy a stereo amp and use it with R500 than buying R11 for $5500? Please help me. Which stereo amp I should buy to use with R500 and Denon 4400h?

 

[PENG]

Is it better to buy a stereo amp and use it with R500 than buying R11 for $5500? Please help me. Which stereo amp I should buy to use with R500 and Denon 4400h?

Instead of guessing, I would like to know the following before suggesting a power amp.

- you distance from the front left/right R500s.
- your desired sound pressure level, I mean during the maximum peaks of the loudest movie you have listened to.

In a movie cinema the loudest would be about 105 to 115 dB, such as during the loudest part of the dragon attack in the Hobbits. THX reference level is 105 dB maximum peak or 85 dB with 20 dB headroom for peaks, from just one speaker.

Or just tell me the maximum volume setting, and the level settings for the LCR post Audyssey auto setup.

 

[john20182050]

Instead of guessing, I would like to know the following before suggesting a power amp.

- you distance from the front left/right R500s.
- your desired sound pressure level, I mean during the maximum peaks of the loudest movie you have listened to.

In a movie cinema the loudest would be about 105 to 115 dB, such as during the loudest part of the dragon attack in the Hobbits. THX reference level is 105 dB maximum peak or 85 dB with 20 dB headroom for peaks, from just one speaker.

Or just tell me the maximum volume setting and the level settings for the LCR post Audyssey auto setup.

My sitting distance from the front speaker is about 13 feet. My living room is a great room model. The left half is where the living room, sofa and TV and speaker. Right is where kitchen and dining without any walls between the living room and kitchen. Great room size, 16 ft cross 30 feet. The living room takes about 16 ft cross 16 ft.

For me, the loudness that I get from R500 is enough with Denon 4400h if I put the volume at 80 (in 0 - 100 range). But my problem is with a volume less than 80, I feel the room is not fully filled with sound. If I increase the volume to 90 it's too loud. What I want is even with volume level 50, I want the room to fill with more sound, not more loudness. If I increase the volume level to 95, it's too loud. I don't want more loudness than loudness at 80 volume level. Loudness at 80 or 85 is enough. I'm trying to get more sound-filled in the room than loudness increases. How do achieve that? Maybe two front left and two right speakers will help or stereo amp will help?

 

[PENG]

My sitting distance from the front speaker is about 13 feet. My living room is a great room model. The left half is where the living room, sofa and TV and speaker. Right is where kitchen and dining without any walls between the living room and kitchen. Great room size, 16 ft cross 30 feet. The living room takes about 16 ft cross 16 ft.

For me, the loudness that I get from R500 is enough with Denon 4400h if I put the volume at 80 (in 0 - 100 range). But my problem is with a volume less than 80, I feel the room is not fully filled with sound. If I increase the volume to 90 it's too loud. What I want is even with volume level 50, I want the room to fill with more sound, not more loudness. If I increase the volume level to 95, it's too loud. I don't want more loudness than loudness at 80 volume level. Loudness at 80 or 85 is enough. I'm trying to get more sound-filled in the room than loudness increases. How do achieve that? Maybe two front left and two right speakers will help or stereo amp will help?

What are the level settings? I see two issues:

1) If the levels are 0, +/- 1 dB, then at volume 80 you are at or very close to reference level.
The R11's sensitivity is about 2 dB higher so you can reach about the same "loudness" at volume 78.
That means your AVR-X4400H is being pushed to the limit, you should put a fan on top to help cool it, and consider adding a 3 channel power amp such as the Monolith 3X200W, 3 Outlaw M2220, Anthem MCA325 or more powerful amps. The R11 can help but not a whole lot for a lot of money. As it is now, you are actually not just pushing the AVR hard, you are also pushing the R500s close to their limits though not dangerously close.

2) If volume at 80 is as loud as you want, and you want the room to be "filled". I assume that would mean you want the sound to be just as or almost as loud as it is at your main listening position (MLP). If that's the case, you can try the multichannel stereo mode and see if that helps.

Two front left and two front right speakers will certainly help, but do you have the option to spread out the existing R500's, say push each by 2 feet or more out?

If that doesn't help then yes you can consider using two pairs of front speakers but it is complicated to do it right, and safe.

 

[oupee]

Is it better to buy a stereo amp and use it with R500 than buying R11 for $5500? Please help me. Which stereo amp I should buy to use with R500 and Denon 4400h?

How did it end up? For example, the Parasound Hint 6 is an excellent amplifier and has a bypass to the home theater.

 

[john20182050]

What are the level settings? I see two issues:

1) If the levels are 0, +/- 1 dB, then at volume 80 you are at or very close to reference level.
The R11's sensitivity is about 2 dB higher so you can reach about the same "loudness" at volume 78.
That means your AVR-X4400H is being pushed to the limit, you should put a fan on top to help cool it, and consider adding a 3 channel power amp such as the Monolith 3X200W, 3 Outlaw M2220, Anthem MCA325 or more powerful amps. The R11 can help but not a whole lot for a lot of money. As it is now, you are actually not just pushing the AVR hard, you are also pushing the R500s close to their limits though not dangerously close.

2) If volume at 80 is as loud as you want, and you want the room to be "filled". I assume that would mean you want the sound to be just as or almost as loud as it is at your main listening position (MLP). If that's the case, you can try the multichannel stereo mode and see if that helps.

Two front left and two front right speakers will certainly help, but do you have the option to spread out the existing R500's, say push each by 2 feet or more out?

If that doesn't help then yes you can consider using two pairs of front speakers but it is complicated to do it right, and safe.

Thanks a lot for the details. I bought KEF R11. Placed the order. Not received yet. Currently, I'm bi-amping the KEF R500 with Denon X4400H. Now, what wonder is why do I need to buy a 2 channel or a 3-channel power amp to use R11? Is X4400H doesn't have enough power for R11? Can you explain what's the advantage that I will get by buying an 2 channel or a 3-channel power amp? Since, now, I bi-amp my R500, if I buy a 2 channel or a 3-channel power amp, I need to buy two amps to bi-amp R11? And what is the difference between a 2 channel or a 3-channel power amp? a 3-channel power amp is used for 2.1 setup to power 2 front speakers and also power a sub?"

 

[john20182050]

How did it end up? For example, the Parasound Hint 6 is an excellent amplifier and has a bypass to the home theater.

I bought KEF R11. Placed the order. Not received yet. Now, what wonder is why do I need to buy a 2 channel or a 3-channel power amp to use R11? Is X4400H doesn't have enough power for R11? Can you explain what's the advantage that I will get by buying a 2 channel or a 3-channel power amp?

 

[Pogre]

I bought KEF R11. Placed the order. Not received yet. Now, what wonder is why do I need to buy a 2 channel or a 3-channel power amp to use R11? Is X4400H doesn't have enough power for R11? Can you explain what's the advantage that I will get by buying a 2 channel or a 3-channel power amp?

The 4400 shouldn't have any problems powering those speakers based on your distance and listening habits. Your comments about lower volumes "not filling the room"

But my problem is with a volume less than 80, I feel the room is not fully filled with sound.

Read that sentence back to yourself and think about it.

Of course the room isn't going to be filled with sound at lower volumes! A different or more powerful amp isn't going to change that at all. A bigger amp will allow you to listen at higher volumes with less distortion. Takes a little pressure off your avr too, but won't affect sound quality. At regular volumes you're likely not using more than a few watts. The rest of the power just sits there, unused, on reserve until it's needed.

 

[lovinthehd]

One thing you can do with the 4400 at lower volumes is use DynamicEQ, that's what it's for. Turn off Dynamic Volume, if it is on.

 

[ryanosaur]

The 4400 shouldn't have any problems powering those speakers based on your distance and listening habits. Your comments about lower volumes "not filling the room"

Read that sentence back to yourself and think about it.

Of course the room isn't going to be filled with sound at lower volumes! A different or more powerful amp isn't going to change that at all. A bigger amp will allow you to listen at higher volumes with less distortion. Takes a little pressure off your avr too, but won't affect sound quality. At regular volumes you're likely not using more than a few watts. The rest of the power just sits there, unused, on reserve until it's needed.

As I take a few precious moments to poke out of my cave...

@john20182050
I agree with Pogre, here...
You haven't received the Speakers yet; haven't listened to them on your AVR. Until you do, this is a pretty ridiculous continuation of the conversation.
If you want an Amp, get an Amp. Nobody is going to stop you and the only limit will be what you are willing to spend. I didn't need amps, and I have them! They don't magically change anything about the way my system performs when I'm listening from -10 to -5... They do likely help when I bump it to 0 and watch the world get destroyed by Godzilla!

I think you should sit tight and experience them on your AVR before making a decision. Unless you really just want Amps. If its the latter, shop smart, get something capable of delivering a good clean 300w or more into 4 ohms. I would highly recommend Purifi or Hypex based Class D amps, which you can get as 2- and even 3- channel MonoBlock in a single chassis.

 

[Pogre]

They do likely help when I bump it to 0 and watch the world get destroyed by Godzilla!

Just want to point out that 0 with Ryan's reference scale is the same as 80 for @john20182050.

PS, fixed for accuracy.

 

[lovinthehd]

Definitely I'd first get the speakers before deciding what further might be needed. Getting an amp sometimes isn't about need rather than basic want....but often makes little to no difference in use. Low impedance speakers at high volumes could be a reason for power amps, but seems the current amplification should be fairly capable.

@Pogre how do you figure on the volume scale? Reference on the absolute scale is usually 80/82....

 

[Pogre]

As I take a few precious moments to poke out of my cave...

@john20182050
I agree with Pogre, here...
You haven't received the Speakers yet; haven't listened to them on your AVR. Until you do, this is a pretty ridiculous continuation of the conversation.
If you want an Amp, get an Amp. Nobody is going to stop you and the only limit will be what you are willing to spend. I didn't need amps, and I have them! They don't magically change anything about the way my system performs when I'm listening from -10 to -5... They do likely help when I bump it to 0 and watch the world get destroyed by Godzilla!

I think you should sit tight and experience them on your AVR before making a decision. Unless you really just want Amps. If its the latter, shop smart, get something capable of delivering a good clean 300w or more into 4 ohms. I would highly recommend Purifi or Hypex based Class D amps, which you can get as 2- and even 3- channel MonoBlock in a single chassis.

Yes, this.

I'm almost certain you won't need an amp. That doesn't mean you can't want one tho. Like Ryan, I have more amp than I need for 99% of my listening but I've always wanted big beefy amplification so I got it. I knew before I bought it that it wasn't going to have any impact on sound quality for all but the loudest volumes, which comprises the remaining 1% of my listening. That used to be a bigger % but I'm a lot more careful than I used to be about preserving what hearing I have left.