Monolith by Monoprice HTP-1 16 Channel Dolby Atmos & DTS:X Home Theater Processor w/Dirac & Alexa Compatibility

[ryanosaur]

No! We must never let Matthew forget his mistakes! Remember this always, and hold it against him!
View attachment 45007

So vindictive. Are you still mad at him building that big heavy Sub in his basement and asking you for help moving it?

 

[bobof]

Well 4 volts is the official max. I thought I recalled Amir indicating he didn't see extreme clipping until 4.5 volts, so I didn't think to question it. Since I don't have the device anymore I can't recheck and have to go by what I think I did 3 months ago. I corrected the voltage values from 3 months ago based on testing a different device last night to figure out the difference if I didn't compensate for the gain of the QA480.

I think this sounds right. I did push it up above 0 earlier and saw similar results to what you observed. It is possible to get a little more out before performance nosedives. Not sure it is likely ever going to be worth it though.

The QA480 does have 12dB of gain, but if you type in -12dB into the external gain of the analyzer software it won't give accurate voltages. I don't know why, Matt is looking into it. While I told him about it months ago, he apparently didn't understand what I was saying and now thinks its a glitch. I don't see how it could be a glitch given that this particular thing is pretty straight forward. I've measured a lot of devices that Matt or the manufacturer also has to measure and we have had good agreement once everything is calibrated right, so I can't figure out what would cause this gain problem. I think it's related to the dewarping process?

Sounds plausible, I've not played around with this kind of notch filter setup with dewarping before.

What are you using to measure?

Most of the time a Spectral Measurement (was Prism Sound) dScope M1, but also a dScope III in the lab. Full disclosure, I do some work for the manfacturer of the dScope. My interest here though is just as an HTP1 user.

 

[bombadil]

I may have missed some of this discussion, but I am confused by the fact that Amir gave this unit a headless panther (worst rating) and Audioholics gives it 5 stars. The unit cannot be poor and excellent so I'm guessing there were issues that ASR found important that Audioholics either didn't measure or don't feel are important. If someone cares to explain the different views I'd appreciate it.

 

[ryanosaur]

I may have missed some of this discussion, but I am confused by the fact that Amir gave this unit a headless panther (worst rating) and Audioholics gives it 5 stars. The unit cannot be poor and excellent so I'm guessing there were issues that ASR found important that Audioholics either didn't measure or don't feel are important. If someone cares to explain the different views I'd appreciate it.

short version: Amir insisted that he measure at 4vrms, if I understand correctly, which creates more distortion, however this unit would not be used like that by most (if any!) users, and at 1.6-2 vrms, its distortion ratings are pretty flippin stellar.
Amir's rating is based on his ego rather than common use. Pretty much what it boils down to.

I think if you take the time to research Amir;'s review discussion thread and the HTP-1 Users thread from around that time, you'll find all the info needed!

Keep in mind, he re-measured the Denon 3600? after denon called him on some foolery. He would not devisit the review of the HTP-1, though he may have made an addendum far down in the thread.

 

[bombadil]

short version: Amir insisted that he measure at 4vrms, if I understand correctly, which creates more distortion, however this unit would not be used like that by most (if any!) users, and at 1.6-2 vrms, its distortion ratings are pretty flippin stellar.
Amir's rating is based on his ego rather than common use. Pretty much what it boils down to.

I think if you take the time to research Amir;'s review discussion thread and the HTP-1 Users thread from around that time, you'll find all the info needed!

Keep in mind, he re-measured the Denon 3600? after denon called him on some foolery. He would not devisit the review of the HTP-1, though he may have made an addendum far down in the thread.

Thanks. I did review the ASR testing and he did use a lower output and it helped but not much:
"Reducing the level to 2.7 volts which is the max that some other processors/AVRs produce before clipping gave a bit better performance: "
He also found that the unit truncated 24 bit inputs and when a setting was changed truncation was less but the output was still clipped. Jitter was also high:

"Seems like the same shop that supplied the audio subsystem for XMC-1 is behind the same mistaken design in HTP-1. We could forgive the XMC-1 for being old but no such excuse holds for HTP-1. Folks, this is ABCs of design. You verify simple things like whether the device can process 24-bit data. After all, almost all video soundtracks are 24 bits.

EDIT: There is a setting in the menu to override the low level muting. The output clips though. See: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...me-theater-processor-review.11416/post-326504"

Jitter was another disappointment"

So it seems that there is more to it. I don't want to start an argument, I am neutral in this thing and was hoping the Monolith was a good alternative to the Anthem processors. I was set to get one of the new Anthem processors but of course you know how screwed up that launch has been so just looking at alternatives.

 

[ryanosaur]

Thanks. I did review the ASR testing and he did use a lower output and it helped but not much:
"Reducing the level to 2.7 volts which is the max that some other processors/AVRs produce before clipping gave a bit better performance: "
He also found that the unit truncated 24 bit inputs and when a setting was changed truncation was less but the output was still clipped. Jitter was also high:

"Seems like the same shop that supplied the audio subsystem for XMC-1 is behind the same mistaken design in HTP-1. We could forgive the XMC-1 for being old but no such excuse holds for HTP-1. Folks, this is ABCs of design. You verify simple things like whether the device can process 24-bit data. After all, almost all video soundtracks are 24 bits.

EDIT: There is a setting in the menu to override the low level muting. The output clips though. See: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...me-theater-processor-review.11416/post-326504"

Jitter was another disappointment"

So it seems that there is more to it. I don't want to start an argument, I am neutral in this thing and was hoping the Monolith was a good alternative to the Anthem processors. I was set to get one of the new Anthem processors but of course you know how screwed up that launch has been so just looking at alternatives.

I'm not an owner, have been actively following the HTP-1 owners thread over at that other site, though. I am interested strongly in this device.
With the exception of a very small group of people, almost everybody I have seen comment loves the HTP-1. While there are growing pains with the new device, the HTP-1 seems to be crushing the competition. This includes MANY users who have abandoned Emo and Anthem.
At the end of the day, I'm not a super tech-head so a lot of the stuff Amir comments on is above my pay grade. That said, for pretty much anybody that I've seen comment, there is a lot of disagreement with Amir. Again, to really see the details yourself, you would need to read both those threads in completion to get a feel for the device. Unless you just take the plunge.

 

[Erod]

I may have missed some of this discussion, but I am confused by the fact that Amir gave this unit a headless panther (worst rating) and Audioholics gives it 5 stars. The unit cannot be poor and excellent so I'm guessing there were issues that ASR found important that Audioholics either didn't measure or don't feel are important. If someone cares to explain the different views I'd appreciate it.

Kris Deering gave the HTP-1 a stellar review in Sound & Vision. Always take Amir with a grain of salt.

 

[shadyJ]

The stuff that ASR dinged the HTP-1 for is stuff that is inconsequential in real-world use for 99.99% of users. There may be some exotic circumstance where the stuff he penalized the HTP-1 could become a problem in certain scenarios, but the vast majority of users will never have to worry, it will perform beautifully.

 

[PENG]

If we ignore Amir's narrative part, the measurements do seem very comparable/consistent:

Within +/- 0.5 dB !!

So again, aside from the narrative part, take Amir with a grain of salt, but his measurements so far has been quite consistent to those published by others, including Denon/Marantz, Hometheaterhifi, and now Audioholics.

ASR:
Monoprice HTP-1 Home Theater Processor Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Shady's:

I was curious what would happen if I pushed the output, so I raised the level to 4.2 Vrms balanced output or 2.1 Vrms per phase. This was the maximum clean output I could manage before the HTP-1 seemed to fall apart. Performance decreased to a still excellent -97.5 dB THD+N.

Same for SNR/DR, both reviews measured around 112 dB, not A-weighted.

 

[Gunny]

Thanks for an excellent review. Sadly it seems all of the current crop of AV processors have some serious flaws to contend with. Just as with Anthems new processors, I have high hopes, but will not be investing in them just yet.

 

[ryanosaur]

Thanks for an excellent review. Sadly it seems all of the current crop of AV processors have some serious flaws to contend with. Just as with Anthems new processors, I have high hopes, but will not be investing in them just yet.

This from an owner, active on the HTP-1 Owners Thread at that other site:

I'm a long time Denon/Marantz guy. The HTP-1 is, in my opinion, the best of the bunch.

There is little to be unhappy with in the HTP-1 compared to any of the other Super Processors. If you explore that thread, you will see many others share the same sentiment as the person quoted above, who only posted that "a moment ago."

 

[Cos]

Thanks for an excellent review. Sadly it seems all of the current crop of AV processors have some serious flaws to contend with. Just as with Anthems new processors, I have high hopes, but will not be investing in them just yet.

If You saw Amir's review of the AVM60 (really bad) lets hope they fixed it with the current crop of Pre/Pros

 

[Hubbard32]

short version: Amir insisted that he measure at 4vrms, if I understand correctly, which creates more distortion, however this unit would not be used like that by most (if any!) users, and at 1.6-2 vrms, its distortion ratings are pretty flippin stellar.
Amir's rating is based on his ego rather than common use. Pretty much what it boils down to.

I think if you take the time to research Amir;'s review discussion thread and the HTP-1 Users thread from around that time, you'll find all the info needed!

Keep in mind, he re-measured the Denon 3600? after denon called him on some foolery. He would not devisit the review of the HTP-1, though he may have made an addendum far down in the thread.

Nope the dude never admitted his mistake and the review never got the edit it should have....

 

[Erod]

I loved my Anthem 60. Best processor I'd ever bought.

But this HTP-1 sounds notably better. I'm not sure if it's the DACs, Dirac, better internal components, or all of the above, but there's noticeably more separation and dynamics, especially in the heights and surrounds.

 

[PENG]

short version: Amir insisted that he measure at 4vrms, if I understand correctly, which creates more distortion, however this unit would not be used like that by most (if any!) users, and at 1.6-2 vrms, its distortion ratings are pretty flippin stellar.
Amir's rating is based on his ego rather than common use. Pretty much what it boils down to.

I think if you take the time to research Amir;'s review discussion thread and the HTP-1 Users thread from around that time, you'll find all the info needed!

Keep in mind, he re-measured the Denon 3600? after denon called him on some foolery. He would not devisit the review of the HTP-1, though he may have made an addendum far down in the thread.

That's not quite fair, Amir often stressed the "audibility" part and that his "harsh" comments were based on SOTA 115 to 120 dB of SINAD, not that anything below even 75 dB would sound bad. As for the 4 Vrms used, that's pretty standard for balanced output, or 2 V for unbalanced output. Gene typically do the same, so are Hometheaterhifi.com and stereophile. In fact Gene has been emphasizing the need for clean output up to 2 V, or 4 V unbalanced.

He did not re-measure the 3600 either, I think you got that mixed up with the 4700, and he did admit his mistake on that one.

He had the Monolith ranked top for a while based on the reduced output to 2.7V (balanced/XLR) for a while, until it was passed by the Denon AVR-X8500H. For the 4 V output test, it still ranked quite high, only a few dB lower than the Denon and Emotiva's. For $4,000, I do think Monolith could have done better, and Amir gave it a "passing grade", that seems reasonable.

What is it about the HTP-1's measurements that he should revisit? If there are mistakes in his measurements, people should let him know, like Denon did on the AVR-X4700H. In that case, Amir should have been more careful and investigated his results before publishing, but in that case Denon did have that downmix issue that ultimately render Amir's test procedure problematic. If they did the test same way Amir did, they would have the same poorer results due to the downmix issue, that other products don't have. I don't listen to 7.1 downmixed to 2.1 but quite a few ASR members said they did, and some of them would not buy Denon because of that issue, so mistake it was, but the result turned out to be helpful regardless.

Monoprice HTP-1 Home Theater Processor Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

And yes, if you don't need more than 2.7 V (XLR), 1.35 V (RCA), that unit still has the second highest SINAD, only 1 dB below the Denon, that's within margin or error. That's just measurements. Threshold of audibility is a whole different story, it would be debatable anyone can tell the difference between even 66 dB SINAD and 95 dB SINAD. 66 dB SINAD is 0.05% THD+N, seems good enough for me.

 

[caustic386]

I'm just coming into the realm of surround sound; I'm really confused on this unit. Why is the cost so high compared to other players wherein you would get multiple zones, amps, etc? Yamaha CX5200 measures almost as well but 30% cheaper. It can't simply be economy of scale? I understand it's fully, properly, balanced and measures accordingly but the rest of the features seem so lacking I can't get my head around such a high price tag.

 

[ryanosaur]

I'm just coming into the realm of surround sound; I'm really confused on this unit. Why is the cost so high compared to other players wherein you would get multiple zones, amps, etc? Yamaha CX5200 measures almost as well but 30% cheaper. It can't simply be economy of scale? I understand it's fully, properly, balanced and measures accordingly but the rest of the features seem so lacking I can't get my head around such a high price tag.

Consider this to be a premium unit built to be affordable by more people than whom can afford the other Super Processors. Even the Emo RMC-1 at $5K has issues and many unfillfilled promises. But above that, these 16-channel+ AVPs go up to $7-, $8-, $13000 and more!
What ATI did for Monoprice is take their access to some of their Uber-Premium AVPs from Data-sat and Theta and strip it down to the bare essentials that will deliver an excellent single room processor at an affordable price. Yes $4K is something I have trouble calling affordable, BUT, it is half the cost of most of the competition, AND: it works.
To simplify and streamline the device, it does not have a pure analog pathway, on-screen display, or controls for multiple zones. But what it delivers is a very high quality sound, is DIRAC enabled, and highly customizable as one would expect a "computerized" Processor to be.
Is it for everybody? No.
Mind, this doesn't even address you comment about AVRs vs Separates, and I will not go there: too much time and space has already been dedicated to that all over the audio-verse of internet fora.
So if you want to see where the HTP-1 fits in as a Sparate AVP, look at the competition from the RMC-1 to the JBL SDP-55 and the new Anthems; look at Storm Audio and Trinnov, Audio Control....

And yes, economy of scale is a major reason why separate Processors cost more. They are easier to biuild, but instead of producing 10s of thousands, they maybe produce 1000-5000. All the R&D, plant design, labor, licensing fees... All of that has to be accounted for in a much smaller production run.

 

[caustic386]

.
Mind, this doesn't even address you comment about AVRs vs Separates, and I will not go there: too much time and space has already been dedicated to that all over the audio-verse of internet fora.
So if you want to see where the HTP-1 fits in as a Sparate AVP, look at the competition from the RMC-1 to the JBL SDP-55 and the new Anthems; look at Storm Audio and Trinnov, Audio Control....

Thanks! I do understand a lot of the separates vs AVRs, I think in this case that's what it makes it even more confusing. Outboard amps bring more power, less distortion, etc etc. Like many here, I question of the audibility of such an upgrade but I do understand it. But what I see here is $4K for a 16ch DAC with proprietary codec support.

Thinking it through, I guess costs are equivalent to go all-in on something like a Mac Mini, jRiver, 2x okto8's and Dirac plugins + learning curve to get it all going. But, I'd have a Mac Mini that can do so many other things... I guess my bias is I have 20 years IT experience so I'm not intimidated at all by the setup I just described whereas most others probably don't feel the same way.

You bring reliability as a chief selling point for the HTP1, maybe I don't have enough experience with HT to truly understand that. Any reliability issue I have with a 2ch product simply goes back for warranty service. Or, if it dies in what I would consider a premature timeframe, I go with a different brand. I think I'm starting to understand, though - thanks again for laying it out a bit

 

[ryanosaur]

@PENG
Totally lost track of this, didn't mean to ignore you.

You know I'm not an EE, and I still don't have a good grasp of managing Gain Structure. There are many finite points that I just can't speak to.
However, the way I understand the HTP-1 to be set up with the variable output voltage setting was clever to begin, but not without its flaws. This has been addressed over time in their updates and manual revisions.
I commented that in real world usage, most people have no reason to set the output up at 4 vrms, and this is largely agreed upon by everybody in the AVS thread. Most amps users are operating are in the 1.6-2.6 vrms range.
As to why Mono/ATI may not have talked to Amir about the measurement or why Amir didn't revisit the review? Can't say.
But, in real world usage with appropriate output settings, the HTP-1 performs well beyond what a headless panther indicates. Many of us know to not take any single review at face value, and this is no different. My comments about Amir's review and headless rating, though, stand, and I think actual HTP-1 owners would resoundingly agree that this review from Amir is not representative of what this unit brings to the table.
Just to keep it real, I don't think the HTP-1 is perfect, and I don't think most owners would claim it to be either. It does check a lot of boxes though, and it beats out a lot of the competition in real world usage.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm just coming into the realm of surround sound; I'm really confused on this unit. Why is the cost so high compared to other players wherein you would get multiple zones, amps, etc? Yamaha CX5200 measures almost as well but 30% cheaper. It can't simply be economy of scale? I understand it's fully, properly, balanced and measures accordingly but the rest of the features seem so lacking I can't get my head around such a high price tag.

Just depends on 3 things.
1. If you want a 9.1.6 setup
2. If you want an AVP that has among the best numbers on that ASR website, even though these numbers are inaudible
3. If you want Dirac Room EQ