highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I wouldn't mind a drive to Wisconsin. Never been there. Indiana's roads are awful, I'll stay away. :D
If you think Indiana's roads are awful, you'll really hate what we have here- WI was rated D+ by the American Society of Civil Engineers.


I think they were being generous.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Yeah, it's decentralized here too, and even though Illinois has enacted 1B+ groups, each county can decide individually whether or not they want to vaccinate people in 1B+ yet. I'm signed up with at least 6 different services, doctor's offices, medical facilities, pharmacies, etc. to get updates on when stuff is available.
Be patient and wait. Things will open up.

After I got impatient and drove 3½ hours for my 1st dose, things finally began to open up where I live. Last week I got 4 emails or texts saying I could get appointments in Maryland. Some were not far away, and some were in Baltimore, about 40 miles north. Today I got an email from my own county's health department, saying I'm eligible to sign up now for my 1st dose tomorrow at a nearby high school. They do use the same Moderna vaccine that I need for my 2nd dose, but tomorrow is too soon. I have to wait at least 4 weeks after my 1st dose, to at least April 1st.

So continue to hang in there.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Moderna testing new COVID-19 vaccine as potential booster shot | Reuters

Now I'll have to get a third shot. I haven't even received my second dose yet.
From the article:

>>>The early-stage study will assess the safety and immunogenicity of mRNA-1283 at three dose levels, and will be given to healthy adults either as a single dose or in two doses 28 days apart, the company said.<<<

If nothing else, it would be nice to have data on dose levels and timing.

Hopefully the new vaccine can be stored in refrigerators as suggested in the article.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
This feels so dumb, since there's no proven correlation between the blood clots and the vaccine:


I thought Germany was smarter...
Drug regulatory agencies have to take a cautious approach. They are the last line of defense against toxic or adverse side effects in new drugs that are just beginning to be used widely. All modern countries in Europe, North America, Asia, and elsewhere have laws regulating new drugs.

This is no known link between vaccines and blot clotting. That is to say, there is no known link between the biological processes of immunization and blot clot formation, as we now understand them. So, in theory, it shouldn't happen. Likewise, no database has evidence of such links. We have not identified such a link in previous cases. So, in practice as well as in theory, it shouldn't happen. But that does not mean that we can rule it out as impossible. That's where drug regulatory agencies do their work. I see nothing wrong with temporarily stopping vaccinations while they look into the existence of a previously unknown or unrecognized link. They would be negligent if they failed to do this.

I sometimes wonder what it would be like if the same rigorous regulatory approval process that new drugs must pass, was applied to other industries. Imagine the uproar if airplane or automobile manufacturers had to run the equivalent of large clinical trials – before they could sell any new product. What if Boeing had to perform rigorous tests of a new commercial airliner, such as the 737 Max, and then submit all their data to an agency with real legal & law enforcement powers before they could ever sell their new airliner? Same for General Motors, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, etc.

I wish people would stop complaining about this. (Irv, I'm not singling you out. TLS Guy is the lead offender at this.) This is nothing like the corrupt French or East German Figure Skating judges at past Olympics. The European nations have an absolute right as well as a legal & moral responsibility to investigate such problems before they become a widespread hazard.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Drug regulatory agencies have to take a cautious approach. They are the last line of defense against toxic or adverse side effects in new drugs that are just beginning to be used widely. All modern countries in Europe, North America, Asia, and elsewhere have laws regulating new drugs.

This is no known link between vaccines and blot clotting. That is to say, there is no known link between the biological processes of immunization and blot clot formation, as we now understand them. So, in theory, it shouldn't happen. Likewise, no database has evidence of such links. We have not identified such a link in previous cases. So, in practice as well as in theory, it shouldn't happen. But that does not mean that we can rule it out as impossible. That's where drug regulatory agencies do their work. I see nothing wrong with temporarily stopping vaccinations while they look into the existence of a previously unknown or unrecognized link. They would be negligent if they failed to do this.

I sometimes wonder what it would be like if the same rigorous regulatory approval process that new drugs must pass, was applied to other industries. Imagine the uproar if airplane or automobile manufacturers had to run the equivalent of large clinical trials – before they could sell any new product. What if Boeing had to perform rigorous tests of a new commercial airliner, such as the 737 Max, and then submit all their data to an agency with real legal & law enforcement powers before they could ever sell their new airliner? Same for General Motors, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, etc.

I wish people would stop complaining about this. (Irv, I'm not singling you out. TLS Guy is the lead offender at this.) This is nothing like the corrupt French or East German Figure Skating judges at past Olympics. The European nations have an absolute right as well as a legal & moral responsibility to investigate such problems before they become a widespread hazard.
I'm unrepentant, because this bureaucratic thinking will cost lives, and lots of them.

These are the facts.

According to the charity Thrombosis UK, up to one in 1,000 people each year will experience a dangerous blood clot in a vein, known as a venous thrombosis. That means about 66,000 people in Britain might be expected to suffer a blood clot annually – or 1,269 a week.

According to AstraZeneca, there have been 15 events of deep vein thrombosis (DVT) and 22 events of pulmonary embolism (PE) reported among those given the vaccine so far across the EU and UK, based cases up to March 8.

The company estimates that 17 million AstraZeneca vaccines have been delivered in that time. That means that the risk of suffering from DVT or a PE after vaccination is 37 in 17 million, or roughly one in 460,000.
At the current prevalence rate, in a population of 17 million we might expect 326 cases to naturally show up in the week following a vaccine, so 37 starts to look very low.
The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (Nice) estimates the risk of a blood clot is even higher - around one in 500 - meaning that even more cases would be expected.
Even if all 37 cases were linked to the vaccine – which is highly unlikely – the risk is still far lower than that of dying from coronavirus, which has an infection fatality rate of between 0.5 and one per cent.
Dr Peter English, the immediate past chair of the BMA Public Health Medicine Committee, said: "When a vaccine is administered to millions of people, it is inevitable that some adverse events, that would have happened anyway, will happen shortly after vaccination.
"It is most regrettable that countries have stopped vaccination on such 'precautionary' grounds. It risks doing real harm to the goal of vaccinating enough people to slow the spread of the virus, and to end the pandemic."
Another factor that must be taken into account is the characteristics of the vaccinated population.
Both DVT and PE are most common in people aged 50 and over, as well as those with underlying health conditions and those who are overweight or obese. In other words, they are most common in the very population which is being prioritised for the jabs.
For people under 40 years the annual incidence a blood clot is 1 in 10,000, whereas for people over 80 years the incidence rises to 1 in 100.
Jo Jerrome, the CEO of Thrombosis UK, said: "We need to remember the risk of DVT/PE increases with age and that we are currently vaccinating the very oldest in our population.
"If the figure is 37 per 17 million, who will be mainly over-60s, we think this is very low and less than the background risk associated in the general population, so would agree with current statements from the Medical and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency and the WHO that there appears to be no association."
In Britain at least, the numbers of incidents of DVT and PE do not differ between the vaccines.
Michael Makris, professor of Haemostasis and Thrombosis at the University of Sheffield, pointed to reports showing that there have been 13 cases of pulmonary embolism in 10 million doses of the AstraZeneca jab, and 15 cases in the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccination.

And there is one more possibility. Blood clotting is very common in people suffering from coronavirus itself, so the figures could be picking up people who caught the virus around the time of vaccination.
Stephen Evans, professor of pharmacoepidemiology at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, said: "Coagulation disorders are very common in patients with Covid-19. Early reports from China noted over 30 per cent of patients reaching hospital had thrombocytopenia.
"Unless we are sure that those who suffered these unfortunate events very definitely did not have Covid-19, then it would seem to be premature to suggest it was the vaccine that caused these events."
Ronan Glynn, Ireland's deputy chief medical officer, said it was important to halt the vaccinations as a precaution but admitted the country may be overreacting. "It may be nothing," he said on Sunday. "I sincerely hope that in a week's time we are accused of being overcautious."
But a week is a long time in a national vaccination programme, and such a pause may come with consequences. Let us hope lives are not lost because of this overreaction.

What has been occuring in continental Europe is just pure folly and can be quickly shown to be extremely harmful. Physicians have to assess risk on a daily basis. Many are difficult, this risk assessment on the other hand is easy.

The British regulator has not, and does not, intend to stop vaccinations proceeding apace, and that is the correct decision.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Drug regulatory agencies have to take a cautious approach. They are the last line of defense against toxic or adverse side effects in new drugs that are just beginning to be used widely. All modern countries in Europe, North America, Asia, and elsewhere have laws regulating new drugs.
I like the cautious approach, but I would like it to be based on more data than the very sparse causality.

This is no known link between vaccines and blot clotting. That is to say, there is no known link between the biological processes of immunization and blot clot formation, as we now understand them. So, in theory, it shouldn't happen. Likewise, no database has evidence of such links. We have not identified such a link in previous cases. So, in practice as well as in theory, it shouldn't happen. But that does not mean that we can rule it out as impossible. That's where drug regulatory agencies do their work. I see nothing wrong with temporarily stopping vaccinations while they look into the existence of a previously unknown or unrecognized link. They would be negligent if they failed to do this.
With tens of millions of vaccinations already, and vaccination priority going to older and less healthy populations, aren't we more likely to see problems like this, so shouldn't the bar for cautious pauses be a little higher?

I sometimes wonder what it would be like if the same rigorous regulatory approval process that new drugs must pass, was applied to other industries. Imagine the uproar if airplane or automobile manufacturers had to run the equivalent of large clinical trials – before they could sell any new product. What if Boeing had to perform rigorous tests of a new commercial airliner, such as the 737 Max, and then submit all their data to an agency with real legal & law enforcement powers before they could ever sell their new airliner? Same for General Motors, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, etc.
Airplanes do have to undergo rigorous test flights and stress tests before they are certified, including testing to failure. And airplanes can't fly without certification. So I think airplanes are not a good example. Automobiles, well, design and manufacturing faults are in the noise compared to driver error.

I wish people would stop complaining about this. (Irv, I'm not singling you out. TLS Guy is the lead offender at this.) This is nothing like the corrupt French or East German Figure Skating judges at past Olympics. The European nations have an absolute right as well as a legal & moral responsibility to investigate such problems before they become a widespread hazard.
I'm not saying there's corruption, nor am I taken in by Mark's claim this is nothing but politics. I just don't see the logic of postponing vaccinations when we're discussing tiny numbers of clots in a huge population skewed towards older unhealthy people.
 
G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
Just took my 1st Moderna shot today, I go back for the 2nd in 28 days. They give me a COVID-19 Vaccination Record Card which is from CDC.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I like the cautious approach, but I would like it to be based on more data than the very sparse causality.



With tens of millions of vaccinations already, and vaccination priority going to older and less healthy populations, aren't we more likely to see problems like this, so shouldn't the bar for cautious pauses be a little higher?



Airplanes do have to undergo rigorous test flights and stress tests before they are certified, including testing to failure. And airplanes can't fly without certification. So I think airplanes are not a good example. Automobiles, well, design and manufacturing faults are in the noise compared to driver error.



I'm not saying there's corruption, nor am I taken in by Mark's claim this is nothing but politics. I just don't see the logic of postponing vaccinations when we're discussing tiny numbers of clots in a huge population skewed towards older unhealthy people.
Your points are well taken. However in following the European press you can see that the continental nations, are "royally pissed" about the lead in vaccinations the UK has opened up. The UK have given at least one injection to almost 50% of the population now and are closing in on that number fast. The beneficial effects of the vaccination campaign are become very clear in the data at this point. On the other hand most countries in Europe have only vaccinated around 15% of the population. That is not enough to significantly affect the trajectory of the pandemic there. There is now another serious infection surge overtaking continental Europe. They can ill afford to stack the deck further against themselves at this point in time. What is actually taking place there is totally unconscionable, whatever the politics may be. They should be bunging any effective vaccine they can get their hands on into people's arms. They should not be wasting anytime with this nonsense, as just a cursory examination of the data shows there is zero justification for their actions.
 
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D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Since about 30% in America will not be getting it, is 70% a sufficient low end to meet?
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Since about 30% in America will not be getting it, is 70% a sufficient low end to meet?
I'm willing to bet that getting an actual percentage will take quite a long time.

They can estimate as much as they want, but some people will say they aren't going to get it just to feel accepted in their particular group, then get it anyway. I've already seen people get called out for it, whether or not the posts are real...

I don't understand the point of that way of thinking.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Isn't the rate of anaphylaxis from the mRNA vaccines greater than the rate of blood clots from the AZ vaccine? I understand that anaphylaxis is more easily treatable than blood clots, but I don't mind saying that as a person with some moderately annoying allergies (shellfish, stinging insects) I did steel myself a bit before I got the first Pfizer shot. (The second one is in about 2.5 weeks.)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Isn't the rate of anaphylaxis from the mRNA vaccines greater than the rate of blood clots from the AZ vaccine? I understand that anaphylaxis is more easily treatable than blood clots, but I don't mind saying that as a person with some moderately annoying allergies (shellfish, stinging insects) I did steel myself a bit before I got the first Pfizer shot. (The second one is in about 2.5 weeks.)
I would say that is a legitimate reason to try and seek out the J & J vaccine if you can. However any vaccination is better than no vaccination. If the AstraZeneca vaccine is approved that would fit the bill as well. The allergic reactions are to the Nanoparticle shield to the mRNA. Pfizer and Moderna have different shields, and both can cause allergic reactions, the Moderna very slightly more often than Pfizer. The mDNA vaccines do not have Nanoparticles. They use the time tested viral vector approach.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Since about 30% in America will not be getting it, is 70% a sufficient low end to meet?
I hope it will be higher than that, we need to get 80 to 90% vaccine take up. We also need to vaccinate children if the trials show that is safe, especially those 12 and over.
 
G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
I hope it will be higher than that, we need to get 80 to 90% vaccine take up. We also need to vaccinate children if the trials show that is safe, especially those 12 and over.
DOC, thank you! for your input on this Covid-19, I been reading just about all the post on this Thread, really its about All you guys who have posted up in here. Outstanding Thread guys!
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
I'm willing to bet that getting an actual percentage will take quite a long time.

They can estimate as much as they want, but some people will say they aren't going to get it just to feel accepted in their particular group, then get it anyway. I've already seen people get called out for it, whether or not the posts are real...

I don't understand the point of that way of thinking.
Agree we had this old die hard biker guy that said " I 'm not getting any dam shot, its all made up poop, a Govt way to get rid of people". I said, so your mother who had the shot wil be dead soon I guess and the majority of the doctors and lab people, Doesn't make sense, what are you smoking, get real. . Well his wife got Covid, she healed and as soon as the vaccine center opened he had an appointment for his first. I asked him what happened to the MR Macho crap you were talking about,, he said " well this Covid poop is real", . My work was done. LOL
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Agree we had this old die hard biker guy that said " I 'm not getting any dam shot, its all made up poop, a Govt way to get rid of people". I said, so your mother who had the shot wil be dead soon I guess and the majority of the doctors and lab people, Doesn't make sense, what are you smoking, get real. . Well his wife got Covid, she healed and as soon as the vaccine center opened he had an appointment for his first. I asked him what happened to the MR Macho crap you were talking about,, he said " well this Covid poop is real", . My work was done. LOL
Only a few million to go. I believe in you. :)
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Airplanes do have to undergo rigorous test flights and stress tests before they are certified, including testing to failure. And airplanes can't fly without certification. So I think airplanes are not a good example.
I deliberately choose Boeing as an example. They tested their new airliner, the 737 Max, were well aware of it's problems, but concluded that it was good to go. The Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) toothless certification method allowed Boeing to both perform the tests and evaluate the results, resulting in a fatally flawed airliner. Boeing's own actions ruined their previously stellar reputation. No one benefited from cutting corners.

In contrast, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has the force of federal law, the US Clean Food and Drug Act. They actually have police powers, rarely used, but they can arrest violators who repeatedly violate the law. They require drug manufacturers to perform clinical trials at their own expense, but insist that an independent outside review board evaluates the results. Nearly all US pharmaceutical companies make great efforts to comply with the FDA. Without the force of federal law, the FDA could easily be as toothless as the FAA.
Automobiles, well, design and manufacturing faults are in the noise compared to driver error.
That's an inadequate reason to allow producing and selling motor vehicles that are known by the manufacturer to be unsafe. There have been plenty of examples. No need to go further into this because there is no automoble equivalent to the FDA or the FAA. And I doubt if there will be.
I'm not saying there's corruption, nor am I taken in by Mark's claim this is nothing but politics. I just don't see the logic of postponing vaccinations when we're discussing tiny numbers of clots in a huge population skewed towards older unhealthy people.
I like the cautious approach, but I would like it to be based on more data than the very sparse causality.

With tens of millions of vaccinations already, and vaccination priority going to older and less healthy populations, aren't we more likely to see problems like this, so shouldn't the bar for cautious pauses be a little higher?
A two week delay in vaccinating people is small compared to the public backlash that could occur if in the future the public learned blood clotting was brought on by vaccinations, that the FDA (or other country's drug regulatory agency) knew about it and did nothing, citing the COVID-19 emergency as their reason. There would be hell to pay – the public reaction would be widespread distrust of vaccines. Suffice it to say that there is a very different 'culture' in the pharmaceutical world compared to the IT manufacturing world. They take the Hippocratic Oath of "First, do no harm" quite seriously.
 
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