Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[PENG]

@PENG - If you heard the Hegel H90 side by side with the Denon 4700 in Direct mode with the BMRs it would open your eyes. It's not subjective. It's a much different sound.

I have not found a measurement tool for bass grip effect. But you can hear it with the BMR even though it does not show up in REW results. The H90 makes the music sound completely different to me ears. I am sure the DAC in the H90 has something to do with the sound quality along with the Hegel SoundEngine Technology.

SoundEngine

Manufacturer of hi-end audio electronics - amplifiers, preamplifiers, power amplifiers, D/A converters, CD-players and custom installation amplifiers.

www.hegel.com

I don't know if these differences will show up in all speakers yet. I have my Sierra Towers in the home theatre with another Denon 4700. I might try them with the Hegel H90, but if I really like it, it's another thing to buy. Sometimes it's cheaper to be ignorant and think everything sounds the same if the measurement are good or the same.

I told you before I had done similar comparisons with real separates and a mere X3400h, so I know and am sure if you compare yours in pure direct and dbt, you will change your mind but until then, enjoy.., can't dispute subjective findings. Again, I am talking about apples to apples comparison, and you are not, based on what you said in one of your earlier posts.

 

[Trebdp83]

Interesting...I’ll consult my magic 8 ball.

I tried calling Miss Cleo, but she died. She never even saw it coming. Well, she never told me anyway. I really should start tipping.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

I told you before I had done similar comparisons with real separates and a mere X3400h, so I know and am sure if you compare yours in pure direct and dbt, you will change your mind but until then, enjoy.., can't dispute subjective findings. Again, I am talking about apples to apples comparison, and you are not, based on what you said in one of your earlier posts.

So are you saying if I play the Denon CD player thru the Hegel H90 to BMR and compare that to Denon CD player to 4700 to BMR the difference will not show up?

 

[Sachb]

So are you saying if I play the Denon CD player thru the Hegel H90 to BMR and compare that to Denon CD player to 4700 to BMR the difference will not show up?

Just invite Peng for this, & let him experience it live. If this is not possible the least you can do is record a video & by video I mean with a Full range microphone & a quality camera 1080p will do, but even that will not be true to its source.

I've seen audiophiles like Z reviews reviewing speakers, and although he uses quality full range microphones, its still hard to pick the difference.

If you think my idea sucks just ignore this.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

 

[PENG]

So are you saying if I play the Denon CD player thru the Hegel H90 to BMR and compare that to Denon CD player to 4700 to BMR the difference will not show up?

The Hegel H90 has a limited set of I/O so it isn't that easy to do an apples to apples comparison without comparing their DACs. If you use the Denon CD players coax or optical to drive the H90 and the Denon in pure direct, it would still be a fair comparison if the Denon is set to pure direct mode with no bass management applied, in fact no subwoofers, and of course level matched. So you will be comparing, as you clarified much earlier, that you are comparing the two as a whole, using the same source contents, media player and of course volume matched.

If you do that, and have someone to set it up such that you wouldn't know which system you are listening to, then it would be a single blind test. Not one that the likes of Dr. Toole would approve, but would still be much more credible than a sighted comparison test. It is quite possible that when compared as a whole unit, there could be an audible difference between the two, but it wouldn't be as significant as you have been experiencing.

As to the Hegel's so called SoundEngine technology, that's just their marketing hypes, same idea as Denon's DDSC, AL32, Marantz HDAM etc., they all do their own things, different ways, same idea..., that is to prejudice the outcome, create preconception and bias. The bottom line is, whatever and however the electronics change the music, if the end result is say -90 dB THD, then the distortions would 90 dB below the original music signal. If the noise floor of your room is exceptionally quite, it may 20 dB or a little less, so even if you listen at reference level of 105 dB from you mlp, the distortions will be well below the noise floor. So for the -90 dB THD+N to be an audible issue, let alone night and day, really would defy science. I have research (I meant search and read on the topics only, not academic/lab research) the distortions topic (THD, IMD, TIM, you name it I probably have read a lot about it..) to the nth degree, I would suggest you do the same if not yet.

I didn't do those research and then concluded electronics don't make so much difference, it is the other way around, I didn't think they made a lot of difference over the years, then I did my search for reasons/explanations.

Edit: When I said research I did not mean academic/university/lab research, just reading as much on the top as I could find.

 

[PENG]

You MIGHT be able to see a difference if you measured IR, or possibly something in the time domain like RT60 or waterfall, but those usually show ringing in the room. @PENG is much more advanced with rew tools than I am so maybe he could guide you there. Also, Wayne Pflughaupt is great with it too. Just some ideas. Like you said, (paraphrase) ignorance is bliss too.

Absolutely, can't just compare the FR curves.

 

[3db]

Not singling you out VMPS ...just in general... the audiophile who shuns structured listening tests and prefers sighted tests are not cognizant or just plainly ignore the fact that human bias really REALLY affects what we hear. Human bias comes in many forms from mood to sight, sight being one of the biggest influencers. Sight is a dominant sense, far more than hearing. Mood too... How many of us listened to a piece of music and found it lacking in some way and yet another occasion, it sound spectacular. I usually try and ignore my niggling doubts until it becomes consistent. This hasn't happened to me yet. My PSB speaker swaps are a result of being curious about that line up. Its my way of rearranging the furniture in the house.

 

[PENG]

At this point I thought it is time to not repeat things myself, but take a look of what some experts have commented on related topics supported by measurements and related theories, all pointing to while they could be audible difference between the gear mentioned on this thread so far, if the sort of night and day kind of differences were heard, there would likely be other factors than the dac, preamp, amps.

In his review on the Yamaha CX-A5200, Gene commented:

While 23dB sounds like a really big number, it's important to note that the overall distortion level is still quite low for the CX-A5200 model and below the threshold of audibility in my testing. While I'm not happy about this result, as it certainly is NOT State-of-the-Art (SOTA), it never diminished my enjoyment of this product even during my critical listening sessions.

And he obviously referred to the Yamaha's measurements below:

Yamaha CX-A5200

CX-A5200:
Purple: Unbal -88dB @ 1kHz
Blue: Bal -72dB @ 1kHz

Note that -72 dB is 0.025%

and then in his review on the little AVR-X3300W, he also commented on distortions vs audibility:

AH review on the Denon AVR-X3300W

".....At 1Vrms, the FFT of the AVR-X3300W pre-out was squeaky clean, with the 2nd-order distortion 97dB below the fundamental. That is an excellent result and well below audibility...."

and he commented on distortions again in his more recent review on the Marantz SR8012:

AH review on the SR8012

"..At 1Vrms, the FFT of the SR8012 was good but I was surprised at the 3rd order harmonic byproduct that was about 3dB higher than I observed on the Denon AVR-X3300W prior but it was very low at .0018% THD. ..."

So while AH has not review any Denon AVR since 2017, you can put the 2 and 2 together and have an idea of what he considered the threshold of audibility.

The fact that the AVR-X4700H's THD+N at 1 kHz measured by ASR was so much lower than the 3 he measured above, if those 3 cleared the threshold, it is hard to imagine the X4700H would not.

Just for reference, Gene also reviewed the improved SR8015 recently:

AH review on the Marantz SR8015

Its distortions much lower, comparable to that of ASR's numbers for the AVR-X4700H.

Finally, our resident audio expert Matthew Poes on distortions:

Audio Distortion: What is It and Why Should You Care? | AV NIRVANA

If you don't have time, please at least read the last 4 paragraphs, starting from the one on "Masking".

All of the above are easy to read, there are many more technical articles if any is interested, I have downloaded and book marked many good ones.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

At this point I thought it is time to not repeat things myself, but take a look of what some experts have commented on related topics supported by measurements and related theories, all pointing to while they could be audible difference between the gear mentioned on this thread so far, if the sort of night and day kind of differences were heard, there would likely be other factors than the dac, preamp, amps.

In his review on the Yamaha CX-A5200, Gene commented:

While 23dB sounds like a really big number, it's important to note that the overall distortion level is still quite low for the CX-A5200 model and below the threshold of audibility in my testing. While I'm not happy about this result, as it certainly is NOT State-of-the-Art (SOTA), it never diminished my enjoyment of this product even during my critical listening sessions.

And he obviously referred to the Yamaha's measurements below:

Yamaha CX-A5200

CX-A5200:
Purple: Unbal -88dB @ 1kHz
Blue: Bal -72dB @ 1kHz

Note that -72 dB is 0.025%

and then in his review on the little AVR-X3300W, he also commented on distortions vs audibility:

AH review on the Denon AVR-X3300W

".....At 1Vrms, the FFT of the AVR-X3300W pre-out was squeaky clean, with the 2nd-order distortion 97dB below the fundamental. That is an excellent result and well below audibility...."

and he commented on distortions again in his more recent review on the Marantz SR8012:

AH review on the SR8012

"..At 1Vrms, the FFT of the SR8012 was good but I was surprised at the 3rd order harmonic byproduct that was about 3dB higher than I observed on the Denon AVR-X3300W prior but it was very low at .0018% THD. ..."

So while AH has not review any Denon AVR since 2017, you can put the 2 and 2 together and have an idea of what he considered the threshold of audibility.

The fact that the AVR-X4700H's THD+N at 1 kHz measured by ASR was so much lower than the 3 he measured above, if those 3 cleared the threshold, it is hard to imagine the X4700H would not.

Just for reference, Gene also reviewed the improved SR8015 recently:

AH review on the Marantz SR8015

Its distortions much lower, comparable to that of ASR's numbers for the AVR-X4700H.

Finally, our resident audio expert Matthew Poes on distortions:

Audio Distortion: What is It and Why Should You Care? | AV NIRVANA

If you don't have time, please at least read the last 4 paragraphs, starting from the one on "Masking".

All of the above are easy to read, there are many more technical articles if any is interested, I have downloaded and book marked many good ones.

The article portions you quote focus on distortion or noise. However, you can have two units where distortion/noise are not an audible factor. Yet, they have quite different sound characteristics. One might offer tight bass while the other is more on the loose side. Or one might be more analytical sounding while the other is smoother. One may be more dynamic and the list goes on...

There are lots of characteristics that can impact the listening experience besides noise/sound. With most of today's audiophile gear meeting or beating acceptable noise/distortion levels it's important to focus on the elephant in the room - sound quality. If you don't, people start buying gear based on a SINAD number, when they may have actually liked the sound of XYZ better. You only reach that point if you are actively comparing gear side by side. A lot of gear will sound similar but others will not.

The more products I try the more I realize distortion/noise reports are only a starting point for evaluating an audio product. It's certainly not the deciding factor. Once you get past numbers you enter the realm of taste. Luckily, we are not all identical.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

CX-A5200:
Purple: Unbal -88dB @ 1kHz
Blue: Bal -72dB @ 1kHz

Note that -72 dB is 0.025%

".....At 1Vrms, the FFT of the AVR-X3300W pre-out was squeaky clean, with the 2nd-order distortion 97dB below the fundamental. That is an excellent result and well below audibility...."

"..At 1Vrms, the FFT of the SR8012 was good but I was surprised at the 3rd order harmonic byproduct that was about 3dB higher than I observed on the Denon AVR-X3300W prior but it was very low at .0018% THD. ..."

The CX-A5200's 0.025% THD of of the L/R Balanced XLR was at 4Vrms. At 2.7Vrms, it's 0.0039%.

(CX-A5100 XLR 4Vrms = 0.0031% vs 0.025% of CX-A5200)

I also doubt people can hear THD of 0.025%.

But the question is, when people are listening, are they actually using 4Vrms or 2.7Vrms or 1Vrms (since most of the time it's 1W and less than 100W)?

 

[PENG]

The article portions you quote focus on distortion or noise. However, you can have two units where distortion/noise are not an audible factor. Yet, they have quite different sound characteristics. One might offer tight bass while the other is more on the loose side. Or one might be more analytical sounding while the other is smoother. One may be more dynamic and the list goes on...

There are lots of characteristics that can impact the listening experience besides noise/sound. With most of today's audiophile gear meeting or beating acceptable noise/distortion levels it's important to focus on the elephant in the room - sound quality. If you don't, people start buying gear based on a SINAD number, when they may have actually liked the sound of XYZ better. You only reach that point if you are actively comparing gear side by side. A lot of gear will sound similar but others will not.

The more products I try the more I realize distortion/noise reports are only a starting point for evaluating an audio product. It's certainly not the deciding factor. Once you get past numbers you enter the realm of taste. Luckily, we are not all identical.

Evidently you have been conditioned by those myths.. You should probably revisit the definition of distortion. Again, if an amp measures well, and I mean measured not just on one thing such as harmonic distortions, but on a battery of tests such as what ASR, HTHF, Stereophile, and some of Audioholics.com typically would measure, then it will sound good, or at least not much difference than others that measured just as good.

I don't want to be as blunt as others, but would repeat one more time what Dr. Toole said about comparison listening tests on speakers, that is, if you know which one you are listening to, I don't care what you think....... Obviously the same would apply to comparing amps. I hope by now you are clear that I have never said, and am not going to say, that you did not hear what you heard. If you insist on the validity of sighted and/or not "controlled" apples to apples comparisons then I have nothing else to say or I would be repeating..

Time for me to move on and may be others to chime in. Where's @mtrycrafts when we need him?

 

[PENG]

The CX-A5200's 0.025% THD of of the L/R Balanced XLR was at 4Vrms. At 2.7Vrms, it's 0.0039%.

(CX-A5100 XLR 4Vrms = 0.0031% vs 0.025% of CX-A5200)

I also doubt people can hear THD of 0.025%. But the question is, when people are listening, are they actually using 4Vrms or 2.7Vrms?

I know that, but Gene's point is about the audibility of that 22 dB difference.

To you second point, don't forget 4 V balanced is comparable to 2 V unbalanced when matched with many power amps that typically have 6 dB lower sensitivity when balanced inputs are used. Emo, and probably some ATI's would have the same sensitivity as we found out and have discussed many times.

I dare say more people would not need 4 V than those who would/may. I know I would need less than 2 V (or less than 1 V if unbalanced) most of the time but others may hit 4 V (or 2 V unbalanced) depending on the individual's listening habits (how loud..) and conditions (distance, speaker impedance and sensitivities etc.).

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

Time for me to move on and may be others to chime in. Where's @mtrycrafts when we need him?

Other things more important is taking me away from these rehashed importance of unbiased(DBT) protocols.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
What you are seeing is my room's impact on the freq. response with the relatively flat BMR's. What I found the most interesting is how you can compare items with REW measurements that are almost identical and they can still sound significantly different.

Well, that is the real question, isn't it. Unless one compares components under tight levels matched, to 0.1dB spl, bias controlled(DBT0 protocol, it is a sheer guess what the sound quality difference is if any. Historical records on this will not support your supposition though. But, we are all allowed our own reality. Facts are singular, they are or are not.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... I’m curious what the deal is with VMPS. I would have thought for sure there’d be a rise in the midbass range based on what he said. Instead we se a trough, but it’s at least consistent. Interesting...

That is the speaker/room response in the room, not an FR of an amp, no? And, we don't really know, I don't, what the speaker's anechoic response is.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So are you saying if I play the Denon CD player thru the Hegel H90 to BMR and compare that to Denon CD player to 4700 to BMR the difference will not show up?

Possibly, yes. But, it would be nice to have a good bench test measurement data for that Hegel to see what it is doing. Maybe it is euphonic in design?
If not and well designed to be transparent, it will be indistinguishable under blind testing condition. History on this will not support your beliefs.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...


Finally, our resident audio expert Matthew Poes on distortions:

Audio Distortion: What is It and Why Should You Care? | AV NIRVANA

If you don't have time, please at least read the last 4 paragraphs, starting from the one on "Masking".

All of the above are easy to read, there are many more technical articles if any is interested, I have downloaded and book marked many good ones.

I am surprised that Matthew didn't reference Doug Self as well:

Distortion In Power Amplifiers (douglas-self.com)

 

[PENG]

Thanks to 3dB, william and mtrycraft for sharing their views. It's great to hear from others including those who hold opposing views and don't mind sharing their findings/evidence, or just experience.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

That is the speaker/room response in the room, not an FR of an amp, no? And, we don't really know, I don't, what the speaker's anechoic response is.

Yes I believe that’s the IR(in room) response. I think @PENG tried to find some FR measurements of the amp, but had no luck. I do think there are measurements of the speakers, and I believe they’re pretty flat but seeing them would be helpful.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Thanks to 3dB, william and mtrycraft for sharing their views. It's great to hear from others including those who hold opposing views and don't mind sharing their findings/evidence, or just experience.

Thank YOU peng for adding guard rails to the thread. lol.