Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[PENG]

I can see your point because the Marantz AV7700 series didn't measure as well as the AV8800 series. So if I were buying a DM Pre-pro, it would be the AV8800 series, not AV7700 series.

So what if it were the $4500 Marantz AV8805 vs $5500 Denon a110?

BTW, in general, I would also buy the components with excellent THD+N, but it doesn't have to be "rank #1".

Neither, I would buy the X8500H at <$3,000, or wait for the AV8806 to drop below $4,000 in 2022.
Probably won't happen though as the lowest price I can find right now for the AVR-X8500H is for about $4,000, or $4,500 for the AV8805 at Mognolia. I don't know where DJ7675 go this 8500 for less than 3 K, it might have been an open box.

My gut feeling is that right now is now a good time to buy an AVP because both Yamaha and Marantz's (the AV88XX) are due to a major overhaul. Yamaha likely will increase processing to 13 or 15 channels, and Marantz will have the same better HDAMs as the SR8015, the 8K/HDMI2.1 are of course a given. So 2022 will be better times, when the HDMI/8K bugs would have been worked out, and price would have dropped significantly.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

The numbers don't tell you if one component sounds better than another component, or if one component is more reliable or more functional or produces less heat.

I totally agree. The SINAD test results are nice to have but they don't always tell you about the actual sound quality or if you will like one device over another.

Here's an example. My Purifi based March Audio P452 amplifier arrived and I have been testing it. The numbers on this amp are absolutely great. As expected, the amp is mostly neutral. Meaning what you feed into it is what you will get.

However, there are all sorts of other details I didn't know until I tested it with the BMR's and my Denon 4700 and Hegel H90 via pre-outs.

As it turns out the volume control on the Denon has to be 3 steps higher to match 75dB with the March P452 vs the internal Denon 4700 amps. AND with the Hegel H90 the volume has to be 5 clicks higher to match the same 75dB. My guess is this may be a result of the 26.5dB gain while using XLR to RCA cables. I'll try an XLR DAC and see how that compares.

The other thing I discovered was the March P452 amp only requires 16 watts to get to 75dB while my Monolith 7X takes 160 watts. lol

The really interesting part is out of all these tests REW shows the BMR freq. response to be almost identical with every setup and yet the little 60W Hegel H90 offers the tightest bass and midrange of all the options in my listening tests including the $1600 Purifi 420W amp connected to the Denon 4700 or the pre-outs on the Hegel H90. If I had to rate which setup I liked best it would look like this:

1. Hegel H90 with 60W internal amp.
2. Hegel H90 with March P452.
3. Denon 4700 internal amp.
4. Denon 4700 with March P452.

It's really interesting how REW can provide nice freq responses but it's not going to tell you whether you will actually like the sound better than XYZ with the same freq response.

The journey to find the lowest numbers will not always take you to the best sound! It's an expensive lesson to learn.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I totally agree. The SINAD test results are nice to have but they don't always tell you about the actual sound quality or if you will like one device over another.

Here's an example. My Purifi based March Audio P452 amplifier arrived and I have been testing it. The numbers on this amp are absolutely great. As expected, the amp is mostly neutral. Meaning what you feed into it is what you will get.

However, there are all sorts of other details I didn't know until I tested it with the BMR's and my Denon 4700 and Hegel H90 via pre-outs.

As it turns out the volume control on the Denon has to be 3 steps higher to match 75dB with the March P452 vs the internal Denon 4700 amps. AND with the Hegel H90 the volume has to be 5 clicks higher to match the same 75dB. My guess is this may be a result of the 26.5dB gain while using XLR to RCA cables. I'll try an XLR DAC and see how that compares.

The other thing I discovered was the March P452 amp only requires 16 watts to get to 75dB while my Monolith 7X takes 160 watts. lol

The really interesting part is out of all these tests REW shows the BMR freq. response to be almost identical with every setup and yet the little 60W Hegel H90 offers the tightest bass and midrange of all the options in my listening tests including the $1600 Purifi 420W amp connected to the Denon 4700 or the pre-outs on the Hegel H90. If I had to rate which setup I liked best it would look like this:

1. Hegel H90 with 60W internal amp.
2. Hegel H90 with March P452.
3. Denon 4700 internal amp.
4. Denon 4700 with March P452.

It's really interesting how REW can provide nice freq responses but it's not going to tell you whether you will actually like the sound better than XYZ with the same freq response.

View attachment 42524
The journey to find the lowest numbers will not always take you to the best sound! It's an expensive lesson to learn.

I have to say, it seems like you would feel like your missing a lot of midbass by looking at your graph. The range from 40-just over 100 is down by about 16db at its lowest point of roughly 70hz. I’m not criticizing, just wondering if this is something you’ve noticed.

 

[mazersteven]

But you Don't buy $8000+ in AVR/Amps for $6000 speakers

 

[VMPS-TIII]

I have to say, it seems like you would feel like your missing a lot of midbass by looking at your graph. The range from 40-just over 100 is down by about 16db at its lowest point of roughly 70hz. I’m not criticizing, just wondering if this is something you’ve noticed.

Looking at REW I see exactly what you're saying. And that's something I may play with. However, these tests were with no EQ and Direct Mode on the Denon 4700 and the Hegel H90 offers no EQ features.

What you are seeing is my room's impact on the freq. response with the relatively flat BMR's. What I found the most interesting is how you can compare items with REW measurements that are almost identical and they can still sound significantly different.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Looking at REW I see exactly what you're saying. And that's something I may play with. However, these tests were with no EQ and Direct Mode on the Denon 4700 and the Hegel H90 offers no EQ features.

What you are seeing is my room's impact on the freq. response with the relatively flat BMR's. What I found the most interesting is how you can compare items with REW measurements that are almost identical and they can still sound significantly different.

I think that’s interesting as well. I for one expected to see a midbass FR that was elevated on the hegel.
For your dip, I think the only way to deal with that is with placement. If you boost 70hz like 3-6db and it doesn’t move, than placement is the only cure.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Neither, I would buy the X8500H at <$3,000, or wait for the AV8806 to drop below $4,000 in 2022.
Probably won't happen though as the lowest price I can find right now for the AVR-X8500H is for about $4,000, or $4,500 for the AV8805 at Mognolia. I don't know where DJ7675 go this 8500 for less than 3 K, it might have been an open box.

My gut feeling is that right now is now a good time to buy an AVP because both Yamaha and Marantz's (the AV88XX) are due to a major overhaul. Yamaha likely will increase processing to 13 or 15 channels, and Marantz will have the same better HDAMs as the SR8015, the 8K/HDMI2.1 are of course a given. So 2022 will be better times, when the HDMI/8K bugs would have been worked out, and price would have dropped significantly.

Assuming you don't have a dealer as friend of the family and all prices are MSRP, you already have all the amps, and you own $10K/pair speakers, then what?

$4000 X8500
$4500 AV8805
$5500 A110

 

[lovinthehd]

LOL MSRP wars! Deal wars! AVP vs AVR wars! Audio consumers are an endless stream of amusement.

 

[Sachb]

Assuming you don't have a dealer as friend of the family and all prices are MSRP, you already have all the amps, and you own $10K/pair speakers, then what?

$4000 X8500
$4500 AV8805
$5500 A110

For that much price why not just get the premium brands likes Arcam or Anthem?


Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

 

[killdozzer]

It's an expensive lesson to learn.

Well, no. Not really. The only expensive lesson is you buying Hegel for no good reason when you could've gotten whatever it is you like for 1/3 of the price.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Well, no. Not really. The only expensive lesson is you buying Hegel for no good reason when you could've gotten whatever it is you like for 1/3 of the price.

Actually, the Hegel is the best sounding piece of gear I have and it cost less than the Denon 4700 or the P452. The Hegel H90 sound quality compared to my Denon is amazingly more defined, with much tighter mid and low bass.

If I had to give up all my amps and keep one item it would definitely be the Hegel. It sounds far superior to my ears. After spending 30 days with the Hegel H90 and my BMRs it's hard to listen to anything else.

 

[PENG]

Assuming you don't have a dealer as friend of the family and all prices are MSRP, you already have all the amps, and you own $10K/pair speakers, then what?

$4000 X8500
$4500 AV8805
$5500 A110

If you are forcing me to make such a hypothetical decision, I would say A110, I can still use the internal amps to power more speakers because my HT amps can only feed 11 channels at the moment. I like the build quality of the A110, superior to that of the AV8805. It has an E-I core power transformer but seems to be a custom wound one with meticulous shielding. I doubt it was a cost issue because toroids are only more expensive in general, not when compared with custom made E-I's. Luxman only use E-Is and they would do it just to lower the cost.

I know you are pushing AVP now, and100% I see your points. Been there, done that twice, but like HD, people do change their minds when forced to adapt. In my case, I have stated multiple times that I agreed with your take/logic on the SINAD thing, that I believe even Marantz's 75 dB SINAD won't be a factor for most people who don't listen too close to reference level in a large room but there are other factors that are keeping me away from the current crops of the <$5,000 AVPs.

By the way, we can all see clearly now that Gene has measured the SR8015 and SR8012. Why do you think the SR8015 has its SINAD improved so much, now close to the likes of the Denon AVR-X3700/4700H? My educated guess is that both Gene and Amir, and Dr. Rich of HTHF too actually, who have been critical of their HDAMs got their attention, finally!! Hopefully the same improvements will trickle down to the lower models in 2021 (appeared to be not yet for the 2020's based on ASR's measurements on the 2020 SR7015).

 

[PENG]

Actually, the Hegel is the best sounding piece of gear I have and it cost less than the Denon 4700 or the P452. The Hegel H90 sound quality compared to my Denon is amazingly more defined, with much tighter mid and low bass.

I fully respect others opinions of how their gear sound to them, just that I hope people would state their opinions clearly as such, that is as opinions only, not facts. To be clear, I absolutely understand what you just stated above are facts to you, just that it should be taken as opinions to others, until they ("others") have done their own subjective assessments.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you are forcing me to make such a hypothetical decision, I would say A110, I can still use the internal amps to power more speakers because my HT amps can only feed 11 channels at the moment. I like the build quality of the A110, superior to that of the AV8805. It has an E-I core power transformer but seems to be a custom wound one with meticulous shielding. I doubt it was a cost issue because toroids are only more expensive in general, not when compared with custom made E-I's. Luxman only use E-Is and they would do it just to lower the cost.

I know you are pushing AVP now, and100% I see your points. Been there, done that twice, but like HD, people do change their minds when forced to adapt. In my case, I have stated multiple times that I agreed with your take/logic on the SINAD thing, that I believe even Marantz's 75 dB SINAD won't be a factor for most people who don't listen too close to reference level in a large room but there are other factors that are keeping me away from the current crops of the <$5,000 AVPs.

By the way, we can all see clearly now that Gene has measured the SR8015 and SR8012. Why do you think the SR8015 has its SINAD improved so much, now close to the likes of the Denon AVR-X3700/4700H? My educated guess is that both Gene and Amir, and Dr. Rich of HTHF too actually, who have been critical of their HDAMs got their attention, finally!! Hopefully the same improvements will trickle down to the lower models in 2021 (appeared to be not yet for the 2020's based on ASR's measurements on the 2020 SR7015).

That's surprising to me. I thought you would say either X8500 or AV8805 since both are significantly less expensive than the A110.

The difference between X8500 and AV8805 is only $500. So might be more difficult. But the difference between X8500 and A110 is $1500!

You could buy another AVR with $1500!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For that much price why not just get the premium brands likes Arcam or Anthem?


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Specifically which models from Arcam and Anthem? Assuming they need 13Ch of amps.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I fully respect others opinions of how their gear sound to them, just that I hope people would state their opinions clearly as such, that is as opinions only, not facts. To be clear, I absolutely understand what you just stated above are facts to you, just that it should be taken as opinions to others, until they ("others") have done their own subjective assessments.

Yep. Agreed. The hard part is that, perception is reality. Being objective and separating the two(perception and reality) isn’t even something most consider. I’m curious what the deal is with VMPS. I would have thought for sure there’d be a rise in the midbass range based on what he said. Instead we se a trough, but it’s at least consistent. Interesting...

 

[Trebdp83]

Yep. Agreed. The hard part is that, perception is reality. Being objective and separating the two(perception and reality) isn’t even something most consider. I’m curious what the deal is with VMPS. I would have thought for sure there’d be a rise in the midbass range based on what he said. Instead we se a trough, but it’s at least consistent. Interesting...

Sooo... if I have a vague perception, does that make it a virtual reality?

 

[VMPS-TIII]

I fully respect others opinions of how their gear sound to them, just that I hope people would state their opinions clearly as such, that is as opinions only, not facts. To be clear, I absolutely understand what you just stated above are facts to you, just that it should be taken as opinions to others, until they ("others") have done their own subjective assessments.

@PENG - If you heard the Hegel H90 side by side with the Denon 4700 in Direct mode with the BMRs it would open your eyes. It's not subjective. It's a much different sound.

I have not found a measurement tool for bass grip effect. But you can hear it with the BMR even though it does not show up in REW results. The H90 makes the music sound completely different to me ears. I am sure the DAC in the H90 has something to do with the sound quality along with the Hegel SoundEngine Technology.

SoundEngine

Manufacturer of hi-end audio electronics - amplifiers, preamplifiers, power amplifiers, D/A converters, CD-players and custom installation amplifiers.

www.hegel.com

I don't know if these differences will show up in all speakers yet. I have my Sierra Towers in the home theatre with another Denon 4700. I might try them with the Hegel H90, but if I really like it, it's another thing to buy. Sometimes it's cheaper to be ignorant and think everything sounds the same if the measurement are good or the same.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

@PENG - If you heard the Hegel H90 side by side with the Denon 4700 in Direct mode with the BMRs it would open your eyes. It's not subjective. It's a much different sound.

I have not found a measurement tool for bass grip effect. But you can hear it with the BMR even though it does not show up in REW results. The H90 makes the music sound completely different to me ears. I am sure the DAC in the H90 has something to do with the sound quality along with the Hegel SoundEngine Technology.

SoundEngine

Manufacturer of hi-end audio electronics - amplifiers, preamplifiers, power amplifiers, D/A converters, CD-players and custom installation amplifiers.

www.hegel.com

I don't know if these differences will show up in all speakers yet. I have my Sierra Towers in the home theatre with another Denon 4700. I might try them with the Hegel H90, but if I really like it, it's another thing to buy. Sometimes it's cheaper to be ignorant and think everything sounds the same if the measurement are good or the same.

You MIGHT be able to see a difference if you measured IR, or possibly something in the time domain like RT60 or waterfall, but those usually show ringing in the room. @PENG is much more advanced with rew tools than I am so maybe he could guide you there. Also, Wayne Pflughaupt is great with it too. Just some ideas. Like you said, (paraphrase) ignorance is bliss too.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Sooo... if I have a vague perception, does that make it a virtual reality?

Interesting...I’ll consult my magic 8 ball.