Audyssey Speaker Levels Issue

[Bonscott]

Thank You for your detailed response. Do you know if using XLR attenuators would be a better solution then RCA?

 

[PENG]

Thank You for your detailed response. Do you know if using XLR attenuators would be a better solution then RCA?

If you tell me what you have in mind, I can look at the specs.

By the way, if it is within the window, it may be unthinkable for you but from a practical point of view the x4700h is really superior even if you don't have use for the build in amps.

 

[PENG]

Those speakers have build in powered woofers, so are you using ext subs as well.?

 

[Bonscott]

Those speakers have build in powered woofers, so are you using ext subs as well.?

Yep SVS. Speakers all set to small

 

[Bonscott]

If you tell me what you have in mind, I can look at the specs.

By the way, if it is within the window, it may be unthinkable for you but from a practical point of view the x4700h is really superior even if you don't have use for the build in amps.

Parts Express. 10db. XLR

 

[PENG]

Parts Express. 10db. XLR

10 dB seems too much, 6 dB would be enough. I would suggest you contact Emotiva for their recommendation. The matching MM8807 or even better, the MM8003 would have been better for the AV7706.

I really don't like using those passive attenuators but I can't say any degradation would be an audible issue. Use RCA unbalanced output would really be your best bet. If you read the reviews/measurements on the AV8801 (that I have but no longer use it), the AV8802, and AV8805 you will see that the difference in bench performance between the using unbalanced and balanced outputs were negligible. Sometimes unbalanced/RCA even measured better for whatever reasons.

 

[Bonscott]

Thanks. Yea I contacted Emotiva. Spoke to someone who sounded like an engineer. He suggested not to use attenuators because of loss of headroom and leave it the way it is now and not worry about the Audyssey speaker levels

 

[PENG]

Thanks. Yea I contacted Emotiva. Spoke to someone who sounded like an engineer. He suggested not to use attenuators because of loss of headroom and leave it the way it is now and not worry about the Audyssey speaker levels

That is not good advice, coming from the manufacturer's engineer, if he really is an engineer. I agreed with TLSGuy, that since -12 is the maximum, you can't be sure it is the right setting. I would bet that they aren't because the odds of having all 7 speakers set to -12 dB is next to "0".

I would at least turn down the subwoofer volume a little until you can see that none of the channels are set to -12. -11 would at least indicate that Audyssey was able to do its thing.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks. Yea I contacted Emotiva. Spoke to someone who sounded like an engineer. He suggested not to use attenuators because of loss of headroom and leave it the way it is now and not worry about the Audyssey speaker levels

Well you really got bad advice from that twerp!

First off, there is no quality difference between for your short run between a balanced and unbalanced connection, none at all. So that is your simplest solution.

In fact the 10 db attenuator would be correct, if you insist on using a balanced connection. I have years of experience with this sort of thing. When you get an amp like Emotiva that has standard unbalanced line gain on the balanced input, the 10 db attenuator works perfectly. That is why the Shure attenuator was 10 db. In years passed I used these for just these kind of problems. You can tell that is correct, as you say Audyssey is setting your speaker levels at -12 db, which is the max cut. So if the cut is correct then with the attenuator Audyssey will set your speakers at -2db. If it actually needs greater then the 12db cut it now shows, then your speakers might get set at - 3 or 4 db. So if your insist on using balanced connections, those attenuators will do the job for you.

 

[Bonscott]

Well he sounded like an engineer describing how an amplifier works from top to bottom. Went way over my head. Maybe from a 2 channel perspective you would not want or need Audyssey so attenuators would not be a good thing but I am using this for Home theatre surround sound.

 

[Bonscott]

Well you really got bad advice from that twerp!

First off, there is no quality difference between for your short run between a balanced and unbalanced connection, none at all. So that is your simplest solution.

In fact the 10 db attenuator would be correct, if you insist on using a balanced connection. I have years of experience with this sort of thing. When you get an amp like Emotiva that has standard unbalanced line gain on the balanced input, the 10 db attenuator works perfectly. That is why the Shure attenuator was 10 db. In years passed I used these for just these kind of problems. You can tell that is correct, as you say Audyssey is setting your speaker levels at -12 db, which is the max cut. So if the cut is correct then with the attenuator Audyssey will set your speakers at -2db. If it actually needs greater then the 12db cut it now shows, then your speakers might get set at - 3 or 4 db. So if your insist on using balanced connections, those attenuators will do the job for you.

Awesome. Thanks. Frustrating. Just paid $2500 for a new Pre/Pro and the AVR with preouts had zero issues. I guess that’s what I get for thinking i need something that I dont. But hey I wanted it now I got it

 

[PENG]

Well he sounded like an engineer describing how an amplifier works from top to bottom. Went way over my head. Maybe from a 2 channel perspective you would not want or need Audyssey so attenuators would not be a good thing but I am using this for Home theatre surround sound.

I am just curious, why wouldn't you just trying turning down the sub volume a little? You are getting -7.5 now right? So if it gets down to say -10, you may be able to get all the speakers higher than -12 but you won't know until you try. The attenuators may not do anything bad that would be audible but they don't come free either.

 

[TLS Guy]

Awesome. Thanks. Frustrating. Just paid $2500 for a new Pre/Pro and the AVR with preouts had zero issues. I guess that’s what I get for thinking i need something that I dont. But hey I wanted it now I got it

There are a lot more benefits from a pre/pro than just balanced outputs.

One thing does occur to me. Obviously those balanced inputs on the Emotiva are not correctly designed. I would have definite headroom concerns about those balanced inputs. I would certainly like to review the circuit of those connections, and suspect they may not actually be what they seem. I have seen that before.

Certainly try Peng's suggestion to turn the subs down more. However I think your two best options are using the unbalanced connections, or purchasing the attenuators.

 

[lovinthehd]

Why don't we hear more about this? Surely other folk are using the xlr connectors with these amps. Why can't the Marantz adjust internally? I certainly have not read of such issues in any case except with Yamaha/YPAO setups. I'm about to make some changes soon so I'll probably repeat my experiments that sub level doesn't affect speaker level (did it a few years ago and found the speaker levels were unaffected) but mine were all rca based too. Still, I'd try a reset first

 

[TLS Guy]

Why don't we hear more about this? Surely other folk are using the xlr connectors with these amps. Why can't the Marantz adjust internally? I certainly have not read of such issues in any case except with Yamaha/YPAO setups. I'm about to make some changes soon so I'll probably repeat my experiments that sub level doesn't affect speaker level (did it a few years ago and found the speaker levels were unaffected) but mine were all rca based too. Still, I'd try a reset first

You don't here as much about this as most equipment is designed to accepted standards, this Emotiva obviously is not. It is pretty clear to me from the numbers that the input sensitivity of the line and balanced inputs are the same, which they should not be. That also makes me suspicious that those Emotiva balanced inputs, may be actually nothing of the sort, but a in fact a floated line.

 

[lovinthehd]

You don't here as much about this as most equipment is designed to accepted standards, this Emotiva obviously is not. It is pretty clear to me from the numbers that the input sensitivity of the line and balanced inputs are the same, which they should not be. That also makes me suspicious that those Emotiva balanced inputs, may be actually nothing of the sort, but a in fact a floated line.

I understand that part, but still hard to understand how the Marantz isn't built to adjust for such....while XLR users are probably much fewer, just haven't seen this issue before. I tried a wide range of sub level in my brief experiments a few years back when I found Audyssey didn't change my speaker levels but I don't have xlr preouts either. I'd still do a reset at least once.....

 

[TLS Guy]

I understand that part, but still hard to understand how the Marantz isn't built to adjust for such....while XLR users are probably much fewer, just haven't seen this issue before. I tried a wide range of sub level in my brief experiments a few years back when I found Audyssey didn't change my speaker levels but I don't have xlr preouts either. I'd still do a reset at least once.....

A reset is not going to help. Audyssey is designed to adjust speaker levels for position and speaker sensitivity. The range of level in the auto adjustment program is actually more than adequate. The designers have every right to assume that the unbalanced and balanced input connections of connected power amps, would follow accepted convention and standards. Obviously this Emotiva amp does not and that is no fault of the Audyssey program.

Balanced xlr connections are a professional standard, and if you design a unit with professional interconnects then it needs to adhere to professional standards and not domestic ones.

Put it another way, if the balanced outputs of my Marantz pre/pro followed domestic standards, then I would have a big problem and need a bunch of voltage gain preamps. So Marantz made the correct choice as it is much easier to reduce a signal than boost it. The former requires a passive network and the latter an active one.

This basically is another strike against Emotiva and another reason to avoid them.

 

[PENG]

I understand that part, but still hard to understand how the Marantz isn't built to adjust for such....while XLR users are probably much fewer, just haven't seen this issue before. I tried a wide range of sub level in my brief experiments a few years back when I found Audyssey didn't change my speaker levels but I don't have xlr preouts either. I'd still do a reset at least once.....

As far as I know, preamps don't usually offer gain adjustments. Some power amps do, your Crown amp, and my Halo amp have gain knobs. My Bryston doesn't have gain adjustment knobs but it does have a 1V/2 V selector, sort of like a hi/lo positions settings. The XPA gen3 amp apparent offers no such flexibility.

You are right about lowering the sub volume will not address the -12 speaker level issue. TLSGuy suggested that earlier, and it felt right at the time. Now that you mentioned it, I realized that was a misconception on my part. Thank you for waking me up.

Op: Ignore the part about lowering the sub volume, it won't work. I will edit my earlier posts to avoid misleading others.

Best way is to use the RCA and all will be fine.

 

[lovinthehd]

Personally I'd still try a reset Cheap and easy.

 

[PENG]

There are a lot more benefits from a pre/pro than just balanced outputs.

One thing does occur to me. Obviously those balanced inputs on the Emotiva are not correctly designed. I would have definite headroom concerns about those balanced inputs. I would certainly like to review the circuit of those connections, and suspect they may not actually be what they seem. I have seen that before.

Certainly try Peng's suggestion to turn the subs down more. However I think your two best options are using the unbalanced connections, or purchasing the attenuators.

Haha, I took your cue but now I realize HD is right, lowering the sub gain won't affect the speaker level. Audyssey will set each speaker's level to achieve 72 to 75 dB at the MMP just the same. Turning down the sub vol knob will only force Audyssey to increase the sub trim level, not the speaker's. I think you will agree with the logic too.