Audyssey Speaker Levels Issue

[PENG]

The attenuators should be at the power amp, so they attenuate any noise picked up in the cables.

On another note, I would like your thoughts on the numbers (with attenuators) he posted#52. Remember without the attenuators (10 dB if I remember right), all 7 speakers were set to -12 dB (post#1)? The math just don't add up right?

 

[highfigh]

Do you know if the XLR attenuators will affect sound quality?

Or, just using the RCA connections will drop the level. Why keep adding crap to the signal path in a feeble attempt to change the levels when using equipment that was meant to be used together would probably get the job done. There's no benefit from using XLR connections in most cases and in fact, some equipment that has them aren't actually true 'balanced' in the first place.

 

[highfigh]

There are a lot more benefits from a pre/pro than just balanced outputs.

One thing does occur to me. Obviously those balanced inputs on the Emotiva are not correctly designed. I would have definite headroom concerns about those balanced inputs. I would certainly like to review the circuit of those connections, and suspect they may not actually be what they seem. I have seen that before.

Certainly try Peng's suggestion to turn the subs down more. However I think your two best options are using the unbalanced connections, or purchasing the attenuators.

My guess is that the Emotiva has 'quasi-balanced' inputs, not complementary balanced.

 

[Bonscott]

It actually sounds better with RCA cables as opposed to the attenuators. Sending them back. If I were to replace the Emotiva with another Amp brand. Parasound for example. Is any way to know if I would have the same problem with Audyssey using balanced connections?

 

[PENG]

It actually sounds better with RCA cables as opposed to the attenuators. Sending them back. If I were to replace the Emotiva with another Amp brand. Parasound for example. Is any way to know if I would have the same problem with Audyssey using balanced connections?

Yes, just read the specs carefully, and if you have questions, come back and ask..

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you for the feed back, I always appreciate it because it helps me help others in the future. What you just found was not surprising. Hum, ground loops and other related issues could be hard to understand, and solving it sometimes require trial and error. I have read tons of info, even own a few books on the related topics and still found it very much a hit and miss thing on occasions. Even with no shortages of qualified electrical personnel, I lost count how many times my teams got into real troubles in industrial power distribution systems because of grounding issues and electro magnetic interference, let alone just hum and other funny noise in home audio systems.

I hope your attenuators were refundable, I never liked those things but I understand why you wanted to stay with balanced. If you compared the level trims for the channels, I bet they all look more reasonable than those with the attenuators in place.

Hence my suspicion that those so called balanced inputs on the Emotiva, are in fact actually not truly balanced. They appear to have the same gain structure as the unbalanced inputs.

On the right is a circuit for a balanced attenuator. If the input is in fact not truly balanced but floating, then one of the output limbs is grounded.

Also we don't really know the provenance of those Parts Express attenuators, and clearly they were not all the same.

I have found out that Shure still make and market their excellent high quality line attenuator, which would be the one to buy if you did actually need one. For the these to work correctly very close tolerance components have to be sourced. I highly doubt that is happening with the Parts Express attenuators.

 

[TLS Guy]

It actually sounds better with RCA cables as opposed to the attenuators. Sending them back. If I were to replace the Emotiva with another Amp brand. Parasound for example. Is any way to know if I would have the same problem with Audyssey using balanced connections?

Well, this issue is not a good reason to dump the Emotiva. The reason to dump it is reports of very poor after sales service which have veracity. It seems they refuse to service under any terms units bought used and the original owner's equipment if it requires out of warranty service. This sort of practice is just not acceptable. That would be the reason to bale out of their gear, not the RCA issue.

 

[Leemix]

It actually sounds better with RCA cables as opposed to the attenuators. Sending them back. If I were to replace the Emotiva with another Amp brand. Parasound for example. Is any way to know if I would have the same problem with Audyssey using balanced connections?

I use a Marantz av8805 connected with XLR to a Parasound 31a and have no issues like you have described.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[PENG]

Well, this issue is not a good reason to dump the Emotiva. The reason to dump it is reports of very poor after sales service which have veracity. It seems they refuse to service under any terms units bought used and the original owner's equipment if it requires out of warranty service. This sort of practice is just not acceptable. That would be the reason to bale out of their gear, not the RCA issue.

Agreed, but I am pretty sure he meant to send the attenuators back, not the amplifier.

 

[TLS Guy]

Agreed, but I am pretty sure he meant to send the attenuators back, not the amplifier.

Read his post again. It is the Emotiva he is contemplating dumping.

 

[lovinthehd]

It actually sounds better with RCA cables as opposed to the attenuators. Sending them back. If I were to replace the Emotiva with another Amp brand. Parasound for example. Is any way to know if I would have the same problem with Audyssey using balanced connections?

It's not Audyssey particularly, but rather Marantz' implementation of such.

 

[TLS Guy]

It's not Audyssey particularly, but rather Marantz' implementation of such.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the speaker levelling of Audyssey on his Marantz. That is not the cause of the OP's problem.

 

[lovinthehd]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the speaker levelling of Audyssey on his Marantz. That is not the cause of the OP's problem.

Just saying it isn't something Audyssey particularly does, the levels are as Marantz implemented (and as you say is not really a fault due the way the Emotiva amps inputs were implemented). Which makes me curious what results might have been with a manual calibration....

 

[PENG]

Just saying it isn't something Audyssey particularly does, the levels are as Marantz implemented (and as you say is not really a fault due the way the Emotiva amps inputs were implemented). Which makes me curious what results might have been with a manual calibration....

I thought about that too. You can certainly set the levels manually so that they will all be higher than the -12 dB lower limit but then we won't be able to use Audyssey, or if you do, you would be back to the same issue.

 

[lovinthehd]

I thought about that too. You can certainly set the levels manually so that they will all be higher than the -12 dB lower limit but then we won't be able to use Audyssey, or if you do, you would be back to the same issue.

Yes, just curious how the balance of sub level and speaker levels would work out manually calibrating it....

 

[Bonscott]

I looked at other pre/pros before buying the Marantz. Many to choose from at different price levels. Heard great things about Dirac but was familiar with Audyssey and decided I want something easy that just works without a lot of effort. The Emotiva sounds good is quiet and stays cool. However I should be able to use either RCA or XLR without issues. Speakers sensitivity are all at 92 db. Dont know if thats got anything to do with it. But at some I will point replace whatever device that is causing the problem

 

[TLS Guy]

I looked at other pre/pros before buying the Marantz. Many to choose from at different price levels. Heard great things about Dirac but was familiar with Audyssey and decided I want something easy that just works without a lot of effort. The Emotiva sounds good is quiet and stays cool. However I should be able to use either RCA or XLR without issues. Speakers sensitivity are all at 92 db. Dont know if thats got anything to do with it. But at some I will point replace whatever device that is causing the problem

Trust me it is the Emotiva. I have a Marantz 7705 and the balanced outputs conform to International standards. Obviously the Emotiva does not. In addition I highly doubt those inputs are in fact balanced inputs. Actually I would be shocked if they were.

 

[Bonscott]

Trust me it is the Emotiva. I have a Marantz 7705 and the balanced outputs conform to International standards. Obviously the Emotiva does not. In addition I highly doubt those inputs are in fact balanced inputs. Actually I would be shocked if they were.

So I see where a lot of people pair Marantz with Emotiva Amps. Then why would this not be an obvious problem. Unless the majority of people all use unbalanced connections

 

[TLS Guy]

So I see where a lot of people pair Marantz with Emotiva Amps. Then why would this not be an obvious problem. Unless the majority of people all use unbalanced connections

I think that you will find that most people with external power amps are using receiver preouts as the front end. These are all unbalanced connections. In addition I suspect that people who do use pre/pros probably use more upscale power amps than Emotiva. Emotiva is certainly not in the top flight of equipment manufacturers by a long shot. I have three Marantz pre/pros in use and one in storage. I have to say they have been good performers. The ones in use are two 7701s and my 7705. I have done my own measurements on those and they conform to International standards for balanced and unbalanced outputs.

 

[PENG]

So I see where a lot of people pair Marantz with Emotiva Amps. Then why would this not be an obvious problem. Unless the majority of people all use unbalanced connections

Those who use Marantz AVRs, or Denon's obviously with the XPA gen3 are likely the majority so they would have no issues and those using the Marantz AVP may not all use XLR, I would guess 50/50, so you will see why most users won't have this issue.

A quick search found that those who use similar combinations do have the same issues. There must be more if you search harder:

Marantz AV7702 MKII to XPA-7. Input Gains. | The Emotiva Lounge (proboards.com)

I would agree with TLSGuy partially that it is an Emotiva issue, only partially because they haven't really done anything wrong except they should have provided some flexibility, if not variable, at least something like a selector switch (hi/lo selection).

The main reason for such kind of issue has more to do with your speaker's sensitivity and your seating distance. The BP7001's sensitivity was listed 92 dB (that's vague without stating /w or /2.83V, anechoic or in room) but it could well be 95 dB or more in your room, and the way you connect them as they have powered subs.

So to be fair, the Emotiva is not to blame, strictly speaking. As @lovinthehd alluded to earlier, you do have another simple solution if you want to go back to XLRs, by using a spl meter and adjust all channels to the same level. I don't like that simple solution because then you have to record what you have adjusted to each channel and allow for that in your head when you adjust the volume dial. That may not be an issue for most people who just do it once and are happy to forget and enjoy. It is for me, as I do enjoy playing around with REW and the Audyssey Editor App. You cannot do such manual adjustment and the re-run Audyssey, or more precisely, you can, but then Audyssey would set all channels back to -12.

Consider yourself lucky too, that switching to RCA is enough to do the trick, if you had certain Klipsch models, RCA outputs lower voltage may not be low enough.