Yamaha A- S801 or Arcam SA 20 to drive Monitor Audio Gold 100 5g

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smallboydanger

Junior Audioholic
Hey I said you were forgiven for the dislike that generated my response. I still think most audio sales people are useless, tho. You'll get better info here in any case.
Thank you I appreciate you guys helping me out.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
How about replacing the Yamaha 870 with a Marantz SR 7012?
In the light of this would a Marantz Sr7013 be good replacement for the Yamaha RXA 870?
If you are totally in love with the Marantz "port window" look, go for it - looks matter, but that is what you are paying extra for. I envy that you can buy this stuff in silver. It is all black over here!
You're new here, but when it comes to the electronics, PENG is about as knowlegeable as it gets! Guys like Pogre and I can and will help, but PENG is the EE guy who understands this stuff!
So to reiterate, if it is about performance, get the Denon, the only reason to pay extra for Marantz is the looks. Marantz may actually measure worse, but I don't believe the differences are big enough to be something a person could ever hear (kind of like the difference between 0.01% THD and 0.001% THD. If I have the choice, I would prefer the lower level of distortion, but both are below the threshold of human hearing)!

Sorry accidentally clicked dislike wanted to click like, I thought Denon and Marantz were the same company and supposed to be very similar
dont know why they would say one is better for music?
They essentially are the same company (or sister companies). In a way they are doing what Chevrolet and Buick do! The Denon is marketed as a value oriented Home Theater AVR and the Marantz is marketed as a higher quality music oriented AVR. Here in the states, Marantz has a deeper legacy and that is why they chose these positions. If they were up front about them being essentially being identical, Marantz would lose sales to Denon. More importantly, by representing these AVRs as diversified with different specializations in the market, they will capture more of the market that might otherwise go to Yamaha, Pioneer, etc!

Marantz ad-copy:
The Most Musical Sound
Extensively tuned by Marantz sound masters at the most state of the art facilities to deliver an exquisite sonic signature. No component leaves the hands of Marantz sound masters until it passes rigorous testing. Envelop yourself with the most musical sound, from any source.
Notice how vague they are by saying "Marantz sound masters"! I you are an avid "Absolute Sound" (a magazine that does no testing because they seem to believe we can hear differences better than we can measure them) reader, you might assume they are people with well trained ears. If you are more scientific about this stuff you might assume these are guys testing the performance. I have participated in blind testing and I can tell you it makes a difference! If I know one cost twice the other and if it looks more substantial, I will hear the difference! But if you set it up so I don't know which unit is which (and assuming neither is being asked to perform at or beyond their capability) I cannot hear the difference! Such is the imprecision of being human! A good salesman can get you excited about one sounding better than the other and that excitement will alter your perception. He might not even realize what he is doing; as he may well be convinced that it sounds better!
 
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smallboydanger

Junior Audioholic
If you are totally in love with the Marantz "port window" look, go for it - looks matter, but that is what you are paying extra for. I envy that you can buy this stuff in silver. It is all black over here!
You're new here, but when it comes to the electronics, PENG is about as knowlegeable as it gets! Guys like Pogre and I can and will help, but PENG is the EE guy who understands this stuff!
So to reiterate, if it is about performance, get the Denon, the only reason to pay extra for Marantz is the looks. Marantz may actually measure worse, but I don't believe the differences are big enough to be something a person could ever hear (kind of like the difference between 0.01% THD and 0.001% THD. If I have the choice, I would prefer the lower level of distortion, but both are below the threshold of human hearing)!


They essentially are the same company (or sister companies). In a way they are doing what Chevrolet and Buick do! The Denon is marketed as a value oriented Home Theater AVR and the Marantz is marketed as a higher quality music oriented AVR. Here in the states, Marantz has a deeper legacy and that is why they chose these positions. If they were up front about them being essentially being identical, Marantz would lose sales to Denon. More importantly, by representing these AVRs as diversified with different specializations in the market, they will capture more of the market that might otherwise go to Yamaha, Pioneer, etc!

Marantz ad-copy:

Notice how vague they are by saying "Marantz sound masters"! I you are an avid "Absolute Sound" (a magazine that does no testing because they seem to believe we can hear differences better than we can measure them) reader, you might assume they are people with well trained ears. If you are more scientific about this stuff you might assume these are guys testing the performance. I have participated in blind testing and I can tell you it makes a difference! If I know one cost twice the other and if it looks more substantial, I will hear the difference! But if you set it up so I don't know which unit is which (and assuming neither is being asked to perform at or beyond their capability) I cannot hear the difference! Such is the imprecision of being human! A good salesman can get you excited about one sounding better than the other and that excitement will alter your perception. He might not even realize what he is doing; as he, too, may be convinced that it does sound better!
If you are totally in love with the Marantz "port window" look, go for it - looks matter, but that is what you are paying extra for. I envy that you can buy this stuff in silver. It is all black over here!
You're new here, but when it comes to the electronics, PENG is about as knowlegeable as it gets! Guys like Pogre and I can and will help, but PENG is the EE guy who understands this stuff!
So to reiterate, if it is about performance, get the Denon, the only reason to pay extra for Marantz is the looks. Marantz may actually measure worse, but I don't believe the differences are big enough to be something a person could ever hear (kind of like the difference between 0.01% THD and 0.001% THD. If I have the choice, I would prefer the lower level of distortion, but both are below the threshold of human hearing)!


They essentially are the same company (or sister companies). In a way they are doing what Chevrolet and Buick do! The Denon is marketed as a value oriented Home Theater AVR and the Marantz is marketed as a higher quality music oriented AVR. Here in the states, Marantz has a deeper legacy and that is why they chose these positions. If they were up front about them being essentially being identical, Marantz would lose sales to Denon. More importantly, by representing these AVRs as diversified with different specializations in the market, they will capture more of the market that might otherwise go to Yamaha, Pioneer, etc!

Marantz ad-copy:

Notice how vague they are by saying "Marantz sound masters"! I you are an avid "Absolute Sound" (a magazine that does no testing because they seem to believe we can hear differences better than we can measure them) reader, you might assume they are people with well trained ears. If you are more scientific about this stuff you might assume these are guys testing the performance. I have participated in blind testing and I can tell you it makes a difference! If I know one cost twice the other and if it looks more substantial, I will hear the difference! But if you set it up so I don't know which unit is which (and assuming neither is being asked to perform at or beyond their capability) I cannot hear the difference! Such is the imprecision of being human! A good salesman can get you excited about one sounding better than the other and that excitement will alter your perception. He might not even realize what he is doing; as he may well be convinced that it sounds better!
This place has really changed my perception and is opening my eyes about audio and is saving me wasting my hard earned £ by guiding me to make better choices.
I value looks but will take performance over looks every day as over time thats more important.
Will be leaning towards the Denon 4500.
When I asked one of the shops about the Yamaha pre amps low voltage on the 870 The sales guy confirmed its very true but they will never tell you this and were the same people telling me how great it is that they even use one themselves at home!!
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I value looks but will take performance over looks every day as over time thats more important.
This comment reminded me! Get one of these (I assume they are available in the UK)! It is cheap insurance ($26 US) since heat is the enemy of electronics. It has a choice of high, medium, or low speed and I just run low which stays quiet and keeps the AVR cool! I use these with any AVR/brand because "why not?"!

If you have your AVR in a cabinet with tight clearance, they also make some more sophisticated units that will exhaust to the back or to the front or to ventilate cabinets as shown in the link below:

However if you have a few inches clearance, the $26 option is less expensive and quieter or maybe it is that the fan makes extra noise when it starts up - whatever the reason, I never notice the $26 fan on low, but I do notice (when things are quiet between songs) when the thermostat kicks on the $120 option!
 
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smallboydanger

Junior Audioholic
This comment reminded me! Get one of these (I assume they are available in the UK)! It is cheap insurance ($26 US) since heat is the enemy of electronics. It has a choice of high, medium, or low speed and I just run low which stays quiet and keeps the AVR cool! I use these with any AVR/brand because "why not?"!

If you have your AVR in a cabinet with tight clearance, they also make some more sophisticated units that will exhaust to the back or to the front or to ventilate cabinets as shown in the link below:

However if you have a few inches clearance, the $26 option is less expensive and quieter or maybe it is that the fan makes extra noise when it starts up - whatever the reason, I never notice the $26 fan on low, but I do notice (when thing are quiet between songs) when the thermostat kicks on the $120 option!
Thanks for the tip Kew, have my Avr hidden in middle of media unit but got clearance will check both options out
 

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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, I'd add cooling to a location like that from what I can see in the photo.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
This place has really changed my perception and is opening my eyes about audio and is saving me wasting my hard earned £ by guiding me to make better choices.
I value looks but will take performance over looks every day as over time thats more important.
Will be leaning towards the Denon 4500.
When I asked one of the shops about the Yamaha pre amps low voltage on the 870 The sales guy confirmed its very true but they will never tell you this and were the same people telling me how great it is that they even use one themselves at home!!
I do think you have come to the right place. Super stores such as Bestbuy are good for looking, but not for hearing and asking questions because the reps there are rarely knowledgeable. There are always exceptions but the chance that you would meet one of the knowledgeable and yet unbiased is extremely low.

Higher end dealers do tend to have more knowledgeable reps, but the chance you would get accurate information is still very low, the main reasons for that are a) they are naturally biased and would likely say things to get you purchase their high margin models, b) many don't (again, there are exceptions) have much technical knowledge, they may sound technical but they really don't understand the concepts of what they may be talking about, c) they are likely also biased by their training, often provided by the manufacturers/distributors of the products they sell and/or promote.

Here, we have some very experienced hobbyists, many have learnt from their past mistakes after paying and wasting lots of money/time too. A few of us were/are electrical engineers who were either have worked/still working in the related fields, or have acquired a lot of audio related technical knowledge by their research after work, taking courses, and reading service manuals etc. There are of course also exceptions, now and then you will encounter people who simply regurgitate hearsay not supported by facts and figures, you just have to be careful in choosing who you listen to, this is just an audio hobbyist forum after all.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Sorry Im not full of bullshit there is no need for rudeness
here in the Uk when you go to the Audio shops and ask to buy an av Receiver they are fond of asking what you will be using it primarily for movies or music and recommend different makes based on that. I might not be as clever as you and have an advanced understanding on such matters that's why I am trying to learn and make a better choice
First of all, if you have been here longer you will know that our HD friend is a very helpful and resourceful member who don't get rude easily. In this case I am sure he meant the dealers BS, not you ("or" is the key word here:D) so he does not deserve that "dislike". Hope you could remove it.

Now, regarding the music vs movie thing. That is one of the worse bs created by people who likely meant good, but got taken out of context, then got repeated enough times for it to become one of those fake facts, or myths, that the likes of audiophiles, magazine reviewers and sales rep who would use it to influence their potential customers to buy the products that they have reason to push at a given time.

Think about this:

wiki's definition of distortion: "Distortion is the alteration of the original shape (or other characteristic) of something"

So if a device such as the SR6014 vs AVR-X3600H have identical audio specs that include distortions, noise, frequency response, and bench test measurements show that both have the following results that are generally accepted as below the threshold of audibility, and are working well within their power output limits, why would one be better for music and the other better for movies?

- Total harmonic distortions, full bandwith (20-20,000 Hz)
- Flat frequency response from 20 to 20,000 Hz*
-
Intermodulation distortions
- Signal to noise ratio
- Dynamic range
- Linearity

Also, both models have identical preamp and power amp parts and circuitry with the two exceptions:
a) The SR6014 appears to have a very slightly larger power supply transformer.
b) The SR6014 has an extra buffer stage they called HDAM.

a) does not apply to the SR7013 and AVR-X4500H that have the same size power supply, with identical specs/ratings.

On the HDAM thing, it is something Marantz insisted on having them included in their AVRs except the slimline models (the NR series), as a marketing tactics, perhaps so their dealers can use it as a reason if customer pushes back citing the similarity between Marantz and Denon. In theory, and seems to be supported by available bench measurements now, that extra stage might actually explain why the AVR-X3600H actually has lower measured distortions than the Marantz AV7705. That's because the current HDAM is a unity gain buffer amplifier stage, so it will add distortions right? You don't need an EE degree to understand that as it is simple logic!! The resulting difference in THD+N is mostly just on paper as it appears to be well below the threshold of audibility.

* Recent Marantz models such as the AV7705 did have 2.5 dB drop at 20,000 Hz, about 1 dB drop at 15,000 Hz, but how many people can hear -1 dB at such high frequency when listening to music, not a test tone? This is only the case since Denon/Marantz switched to the AK4458 DAC in around 2016, prior to that this was not even an issue.

I am taking the time to explain all these to you because you seem to be open minded, and may be less prone to hearsay, and are more the objective type.

Again, if you don't mind paying more for the better look (to you..) then Marantz is a great choice. If money matters, the fact that you do have a decent (not great for the Monitor Gold) Yamaha RX-A870, you really should wait for a few months, then you can decide whether to go with the 2020 models or the 2019 models that may be available at deep discounts.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
TLSGuy made it clear (also based on measurements) that your speakers drop to 2.7 ohms (well below the 4 ohms that Gene cautions about - lower is worse in this case) and the -65 degree phase make those especially demanding speakers!
Now that the OP seems getting close to a decision, I thought it may be good to repeat the fact while the Monitor Gold 100 are in fact not an easy load for the RX-A870, its real limitation is its ability to play loud (say ref level) from further than 7 to 8 ft, based on their own published specs. Actual measurements will likely show it is worse.

Sensitivity (1W@1M)
88 dB
Nominal Impedance
8 ohms
Maximum SPL
112.6 dB
Power Handling (RMS)
120 W
Recommended Amplifier Requirements
60 — 120 W

I just don't want him to think that a 200 W real power amplifier would fix the so called "hard to drive" speaker problem. It might, but as always, it depends..:D
 
S

smallboydanger

Junior Audioholic
I do think you have come to the right place. Super stores such as Bestbuy are good for looking, but not for hearing and asking questions because the reps there are rarely knowledgeable. There are always exceptions but the chance that you would meet one of the knowledgeable and yet unbiased is extremely low.

Higher end dealers do tend to have more knowledgeable reps, but the chance you would get accurate information is still very low, the main reasons for that are a) they are naturally biased and would likely say things to get you purchase their high margin models, b) many don't (again, there are exceptions) have much technical knowledge, they may sound technical but they really don't understand the concepts of what they may be talking about, c) they are likely also biased by their training, often provided by the manufacturers/distributors of the products they sell and/or promote.

Here, we have some very experienced hobbyists, many have learnt from their past mistakes after paying and wasting lots of money/time too. A few of us were/are electrical engineers who were either have worked/still working in the related fields, or have acquired a lot of audio related technical knowledge by their research after work, taking courses, and reading service manuals etc. There are of course also exceptions, now and then you will encounter people who simply regurgitate hearsay not supported by facts and figures, you just have to be careful in choosing who you listen to, this is just an audio hobbyist forum after all.
Thank you Peng, going by your advice I'm going to get the Denon 4500, nearly bought it today but will try and sell my Yamaha first
 
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smallboydanger

Junior Audioholic
I do think you have come to the right place. Super stores such as Bestbuy are good for looking, but not for hearing and asking questions because the reps there are rarely knowledgeable. There are always exceptions but the chance that you would meet one of the knowledgeable and yet unbiased is extremely low.

Higher end dealers do tend to have more knowledgeable reps, but the chance you would get accurate information is still very low, the main reasons for that are a) they are naturally biased and would likely say things to get you purchase their high margin models, b) many don't (again, there are exceptions) have much technical knowledge, they may sound technical but they really don't understand the concepts of what they may be talking about, c) they are likely also biased by their training, often provided by the manufacturers/distributors of the products they sell and/or promote.

Here, we have some very experienced hobbyists, many have learnt from their past mistakes after paying and wasting lots of money/time too. A few of us were/are electrical engineers who were either have worked/still working in the related fields, or have acquired a lot of audio related technical knowledge by their research after work, taking courses, and reading service manuals etc. There are of course also exceptions, now and then you will encounter people who simply regurgitate hearsay not supported by facts and figures, you just have to be careful in choosing who you listen to, this is just an audio hobbyist forum after all.
Thank you Peng and everyone who advised me on this well its here now!!!
 

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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I hear they can get misaligned in transit
It was open and not able to close right out of the factory box? Never heard of that happening before myself....

ps Saw your other thread and pics. If it arrived that way I'd return it.
 
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