Yamaha A- S801 or Arcam SA 20 to drive Monitor Audio Gold 100 5g

[Beave]

No problem. The reason I asked about how exactly you compared the two is that the details matter - a lot. Normally people just think you can listen to one, then listen to the other, and determine which you like better. But our ears are easily fooled. Salespeople often know this and take advantage of it, or they don't know it and just mislead you unintentionally.

But the comparisons have to be done in a controlled manner.

If one amp/receiver is just slightly louder than the other, most people will say that it sounds better and not even realize that it's slightly louder. You could even take two of the same model amps/receivers, and set one of them to be slightly louder than the other, then do a comparison.

Listeners will say the one that is slightly louder sounds better.

But they're the same amp/receiver!

So it's important to do any comparisons at precisely the same levels or it isn't a fair comparison.

It's also even more complicated than that, because our hearing is easily influenced subconsciously by what our eyes see and what our brain is doing. Take two of the exact same amplifier design, put one in a beautiful chassis and put a high price tag on it, and put the other one in an ugly, cheap-looking chassis with a low price tage, and then let people listen to them.

People will say the nice looking, more expensive one sounds better.

But they're the same amp!

So the moral of the story is that casual listening sessions at dealers, and even at home, can be very misleading even when you think you're making fair comparisons.

That's why the details matter.

 

[smallboydanger]

No problem. The reason I asked about how exactly you compared the two is that the details matter - a lot. Normally people just think you can listen to one, then listen to the other, and determine which you like better. But our ears are easily fooled. Salespeople often know this and take advantage of it, or they don't know it and just mislead you unintentionally.

But the comparisons have to be done in a controlled manner.

If one amp/receiver is just slightly louder than the other, most people will say that it sounds better and not even realize that it's slightly louder. You could even take two of the same model amps/receivers, and set one of them to be slightly louder than the other, then do a comparison.

Listeners will say the one that is slightly louder sounds better.

But they're the same amp/receiver!

So it's important to do any comparisons at precisely the same levels or it isn't a fair comparison.

It's also even more complicated than that, because our hearing is easily influenced subconsciously by what our eyes see and what our brain is doing. Take two of the exact same amplifier design, put one in a beautiful chassis and put a high price tag on it, and put the other one in an ugly, cheap-looking chassis with a low price tage, and then let people listen to them.

People will say the nice looking, more expensive one sounds better.

But they're the same amp!

So the moral of the story is that casual listening sessions at dealers, and even at home, can be very misleading even when you think you're making fair comparisons.

That's why the details matter.

Wow I didn't realise this, quite an eye opener.
When I got my Yamaha avr realised that although it had all the fancy features great sound effects for movies (atmos, 4k, smart features etc) for music no matter how I tuned it, even using the ypao software and mic for some strange reason the old arcam just sounded better
I used my ears as gauge to determine the levels, play the same songs from tidal and the Arcam 250 always sounded better. Its better built and weighs a ton compared to my Yamaha Avr shame its soo old and kind of on its last legs now

 

[PENG]

Wow I didn't realise this, quite an eye opener.
When I got my Yamaha avr realised that although it had all the fancy features great sound effects for movies (atmos, 4k, smart features etc) for music no matter how I tuned it, even using the ypao software and mic for some strange reason the old arcam just sounded better
I used my ears as gauge to determine the levels, play the same songs from tidal and the Arcam 250 always sounded better. Its better built and weighs a ton compared to my Yamaha Avr shame its soo old and kind of on its last legs now

Seem like you are open minded, Beave has given you some or all of the reasons why you old Arcam "just sounded better".

There are numerous examples and even double blind comparison listening tests that show the way you did your comparison would be very prone to expectation bias and Placebo effects. So your impression from such comparison listening sessions were unreliable, anecdotal at best.

Just one example, food for thought:

Arcam AVR10 Review

I am following this forum from long time but have never written here. So this is my first post. I recently replaced my Arcam AVR390 with Denon X3600 for obvious reasons. I was never satisfied with the Arcam for the two years i owned it. I made a lot of measurements trying to fix the problems i...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This owner of both an Arcam AVR390 and a Denon AVR-X3600H, now he is considering selling the Arcam, may be you can PM him if you are interested in it. The AVR390 is a much newer and higher end version than your AVR250. Now he never said anything about music, but just compare the measured distortions of the Arcam with that of the Denon, before you may say the Arcam would sound better in music. All such subjective impressions really mean little, because the listeners knew which device is playing. I am only quoting this one here as an example.

Another thing, I would rather believe you listening impression were skewed because it was a sighted test, than to think that you actually prefer more distorted sound, though that is not impossible.

I am following this forum from long time but have never written here. So this is my first post. I recently replaced my Arcam AVR390 with Denon X3600 for obvious reasons. I was never satisfied with the Arcam for the two years i owned it. I made a lot of measurements trying to fix the problems i was hearing and never completely achieved what i was looking for ( measuring with REW and calibrating with Dirac). Testing the denon for 1 week and made only 2 measurements with audyssey and 2-3 different curves and i can honestly say after watching the movies i always watch as reference that it is completely insane difference. The denon is soo much better to the point that am hating arcam for loosing 2 years of my life not listening to my theatre the way it is supposed to sound. I can post numerous REW files with the arcam compared to what I now have with denon and audyssey for evidence if required even seat to seat consistency is almost perfect. As a reference i have 3 subs pre-calibrated with miniDSP and separate amps ( Audiolab 8200m and 8200p) for the main layer of speakers + 4 channel NAD for atmos ceiling. I was about to purchase Arcam AV40 but i am glad i didn’t. I do not miss XLR outs. I am even wondering whether to sell the AVR390 and disappointing someone else.

I will post more info about why I consider the A-S801 is an AVR based amp, not that it means bad..

 

[smallboydanger]

Seem like you are open minded, Beave has given you some or all of the reasons why you old Arcam "just sounded better".

There are numerous examples and even double blind comparison listening tests that show the way you did your comparison would be very prone to expectation bias and Placebo effects. So your impression from such comparison listening sessions were unreliable, anecdotal at best.

Just one example, food for thought:

Arcam AVR10 Review

I am following this forum from long time but have never written here. So this is my first post. I recently replaced my Arcam AVR390 with Denon X3600 for obvious reasons. I was never satisfied with the Arcam for the two years i owned it. I made a lot of measurements trying to fix the problems i...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This owner of both an Arcam AVR390 and a Denon AVR-X3600H, now he is considering selling the Arcam, may be you can PM him if you are interested in it. The AVR390 is a much newer and higher end version than your AVR250. Now he never said anything about music, but just compare the measured distortions of the Arcam with that of the Denon, before you may say the Arcam would sound better in music. All such subjective impressions really mean little, because the listeners knew which device is playing. I am only quoting this one here as an example.

Another thing, I would rather believe you listening impression were skewed because it was a sighted test, than to think that you actually prefer more distorted sound, though that is not impossible.

I am following this forum from long time but have never written here. So this is my first post. I recently replaced my Arcam AVR390 with Denon X3600 for obvious reasons. I was never satisfied with the Arcam for the two years i owned it. I made a lot of measurements trying to fix the problems i was hearing and never completely achieved what i was looking for ( measuring with REW and calibrating with Dirac). Testing the denon for 1 week and made only 2 measurements with audyssey and 2-3 different curves and i can honestly say after watching the movies i always watch as reference that it is completely insane difference. The denon is soo much better to the point that am hating arcam for loosing 2 years of my life not listening to my theatre the way it is supposed to sound. I can post numerous REW files with the arcam compared to what I now have with denon and audyssey for evidence if required even seat to seat consistency is almost perfect. As a reference i have 3 subs pre-calibrated with miniDSP and separate amps ( Audiolab 8200m and 8200p) for the main layer of speakers + 4 channel NAD for atmos ceiling. I was about to purchase Arcam AV40 but i am glad i didn’t. I do not miss XLR outs. I am even wondering whether to sell the AVR390 and disappointing someone else.

I will post more info about why I consider the A-S801 is an AVR based amp, not that it means bad..

Thanks soo much for that. I was under the impression that a dedicated 2 channel stereo amp would be much better at music than an Avr. which is crammed full of soo many other features and devices .

Before the lockdown in the Uk 3 months ago I had a listen to the Yamaha AS 801 at a dealers and even put a very small deposit like £60 on it. To be honest I believe I got carried away by the low price it was going for at £589 because it sounded ok but nothing special. Its been held for 3 months for me , I think I made a wrong move and I am not going to notice much difference from what I have now when I go for it, needless to say the dealership will be furious but I think I made a wrong decision and after the strong but honest criticism by some members on here which I know is all in good faith I think I will save my money and think twice before parting with the £520 left.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks soo much for that. I was under the impression that a dedicated 2 channel stereo amp would be much better at music than an Avr. which is crammed full of soo many other features and devices .

Before the lockdown in the Uk 3 months ago I had a listen to the Yamaha AS 801 at a dealers and even put a very small deposit like £60 on it. To be honest I believe I got carried away by the low price it was going for at £589 because it sounded ok but nothing special. Its been held for 3 months for me , I think I made a wrong move and I am not going to notice much difference from what I have now when I go for it, needless to say the dealership will be furious but I think I made a wrong decision and after the strong but honest criticism by some members on here which I know is all in good faith I think I will save my money and think twice before parting with the £520 left.

I'm glad you are taking a step back. This notion you have of using different amps for movies and music makes no sense. The problem at the heart of people's dissatisfaction is in fact speakers almost always when you get down to it. Now you can add in amplification in that many speakers, most actually are 4 ohm what ever the manufacturer claims.

The problem has arisen especially of late is the as features have been added to AVRs the amps have been skimped on. Most are no longer comfortable with four ohm loads and difficult phase angles. This is especially likely to be a source of AVR failure.

Now the voltage gain and DACS you can trust in an AVR. So there are two good solutions. The high road is to get a pre/pro with external amplification. The second is to use an AVR that has preouts and use external amplification for the left and right mains, or the front three.

But I have to return to those speakers. I can not imagine they sound good on a lot of musical program. So my vote goes to you putting those up for sale and choosing your next speakers very carefully. If you stay with an AVR and want to continue using small bookshelves then there are plenty that an AVR can drive. In addition AVRs have proper bass management which these integrated amps lack. That is important for movies and music. I should add there is no conflict technically between the two sources, and you need to rid yourself of that notion.

You are in the UK and have access to some fine speaker companies, like Harbeth, ATC, mordant Short, Spendor etc. Those are in no particular order.

 

[PENG]

Thanks soo much for that. I was under the impression that a dedicated 2 channel stereo amp would be much better at music than an Avr. which is crammed full of soo many other features and devices .

All else being equal, that would be true, but all is not always equal! Think about this, a tiny IC has lots of parts in it.

Wiki: "An integrated circuit or monolithic integrated circuit (also referred to as an IC, a chip, or a microchip) is a set of electronic circuits on one small flat piece (or "chip") of semiconductor material that is normally silicon. The integration of large numbers of tiny MOS transistors into a small chip results in circuits that are orders of magnitude smaller, faster, and less expensive than those constructed of discrete electronic components. "

So the fact is, it depends.................you can pack a lot of things together without audible degradation, depending on the design and layout.

Before the lockdown in the Uk 3 months ago I had a listen to the Yamaha AS 801 at a dealers and even put a very small deposit like £60 on it. To be honest I believe I got carried away by the low price it was going for at £589 because it sounded ok but nothing special. Its been held for 3 months for me , I think I made a wrong move and I am not going to notice much difference from what I have now when I go for it, needless to say the dealership will be furious but I think I made a wrong decision and after the strong but honest criticism by some members on here which I know is all in good faith I think I will save my money and think twice before parting with the £520 left.

If it was me, I would get my deposit back while I can and ignore what the dealer is going to say. It is just not good practice to connect a preamp to another preamp. If you want better sound quality, try the following:

- seek out media contents (CD, digital files, etc.) that are know to have good recording quality.
- since you sit only 7 ft from them, if you keep the volume at below -10

By keeping the volume below -10, you can be sure the RX-A870 will not over heat because of the low impedance and slightly high phase angles within the 30 to 120 Hz range.

The A-S801's power amp is obviously stronger, but the difference is not going to be more than 3 dB for the 2 channel driven into 4 ohms condition. It takes double the power output to gain 3 dB of SPL (sound pressure level).

 

[KEW]

But none of the companies have reduced their ability to inflate specs!

True, but Yamaha especially dropped the ball on this one. That is perplexing because Yamaha (in many ways) has been a model of "doing it the right way"! I would switch to Yamaha if they used the Audyssey w/app technology the Denon/Marantz do!
Here is a review with the power chart for the A860 above the chart for the Denon X3300H. Most telling to me is Gene didn't even report the results of CFP-BW 2 channels into 4 ohms for the Yamaha. That is a measurement he has taken on every other amp section he has measured!

Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X networking AV receiver features the latest in HD audio and video processing, music streaming and offers future expandability with solid preamp outputs.

www.audioholics.com

 

[PENG]

Seating distance is 7 feet. Like I said I replaced a 20 year old Arcam Avr with the yamaha 870 thats how come I ended up with two Avrs but discovered that whilst the yamaha was brilliant for movies when it came to 2 channel music my old Arcam was far superior. working on the same principle i am looking at keeping the 870 for movies but needed something better for when Im listening to music , any knowledge of the Arcam sa 20?

There is no point going with the Arcam SA20 yet another integrated amp (class G in this case) that has no HT bypass. Rated only 90 W/8 ohms, the SA20 is even less powerful than the A-S801.

If you really like to have an external amp for your 4 ohm speakers, for about the same money, take a look of Parasound's A23+, at least it is a real power amp. It can handle low impedance load much than the A-S801 can for sure.

Model Halo A 23+ « Parasound

It has 29 dB gain, perfect for the RX-A870 that can perform well up to 1.2 V output. That's based on the review on the RX-A860 that should be extremely similar to the A870.

Yamaha RX-A860 AVENTAGE 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A860 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X AV receiver is packed with excellent networking features but it does fall short on power delivery making our recommendation conditional based on usage.

www.audioholics.com

 

[PENG]

Here is a review with the power chart for the A860 above the chart for the Denon X3300H. Most telling to me is Gene didn't even report the results of CFP-BW 2 channels into 4 ohms for the Yamaha. That is a measurement he has taken on every other amp section he has measured!

Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X networking AV receiver features the latest in HD audio and video processing, music streaming and offers future expandability with solid preamp outputs.

www.audioholics.com

I think Gene was very clear about not using that thing with 4 ohm speakers. That's why I asked the OP about his seating distance. He said 7 ft so I think the AVR can do the job as long as he doesn't listen anywhere close to reference level, 5 to 10 dB before reference would be fine. It really doesn't matter much either because the speakers are rated only 60-120 W, 8 ohms (we all know its nominal imp is more like 4 ohms, min 2.8 ohm) so you can't give them too much juice anyway.

 

[smallboydanger]

I'm glad you are taking a step back. This notion you have of using different amps for movies and music makes no sense. The problem at the heart of people's dissatisfaction is in fact speakers almost always when you get down to it. Now you can add in amplification in that many speakers, most actually are 4 ohm what ever the manufacturer claims.

The problem has arisen especially of late is the as features have been added to AVRs the amps have been skimped on. Most are no longer comfortable with four ohm loads and difficult phase angles. This is especially likely to be a source of AVR failure.

Now the voltage gain and DACS you can trust in an AVR. So there are two good solutions. The high road is to get a pre/pro with external amplification. The second is to use an AVR that has preouts and use external amplification for the left and right mains, or the front three.

But I have to return to those speakers. I can not imagine they sound good on a lot of musical program. So my vote goes to you putting those up for sale and choosing your next speakers very carefully. If you stay with an AVR and want to continue using small bookshelves then there are plenty that an AVR can drive. In addition AVRs have proper bass management which these integrated amps lack. That is important for movies and music. I should add there is no conflict technically between the two sources, and you need to rid yourself of that notion.

You are in the UK and have access to some fine speaker companies, like Harbeth, ATC, mordant Short, Spendor etc. Those are in no particular order.

It might not make sense to you but my reasoning is this
An AVR is a more complicated and feature-packed device that needs to do so many things, i.e. video switching, audio decoding, digital-analogue conversion etc that a 2channel stereo does not have to do.
When a 100w/ch stereo cost £700, and a seven channel AV amp also costs £700 , I suspect that something somewhere was sacrificed.

 

[smallboydanger]

There is no point going with the Arcam SA20 yet another integrated amp (class G in this case) that has no HT bypass. Rated only 90 W/8 ohms, the SA20 is even less powerful than the A-S801.

If you really like to have an external amp for your 4 ohm speakers, for about the same money, take a look of Parasound's A23+, at least it is a real power amp. It can handle low impedance load much than the A-S801 can for sure.

Model Halo A 23+ « Parasound

It has 29 dB gain, perfect for the RX-A870 that can perform well up to 1.2 V output. That's based on the review on the RX-A860 that should be extremely similar to the A870.

Yamaha RX-A860 AVENTAGE 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A860 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X AV receiver is packed with excellent networking features but it does fall short on power delivery making our recommendation conditional based on usage.

www.audioholics.com

Ith

Thats no true theArcam SA 20 does have ht bypass on it only they call it processor mode, the Parasound looks good but at almost £2000 way out of my budget. Im considering a Roksan k3 at the moment any knowledge on this?
Roksan K3 integrated review | What Hi-Fi?

Home review

An excellent all-rounder that not only delivers big sound, energy and texture in spades but does so for a very reasonable price

www.whathifi.com

 

[Pogre]

I'm a little shocked that MA would have a gold series speaker with impedance issues like that.

 

[Pogre]

Wow I didn't realise this, quite an eye opener.
When I got my Yamaha avr realised that although it had all the fancy features great sound effects for movies (atmos, 4k, smart features etc) for music no matter how I tuned it, even using the ypao software and mic for some strange reason the old arcam just sounded better
I used my ears as gauge to determine the levels, play the same songs from tidal and the Arcam 250 always sounded better. Its better built and weighs a ton compared to my Yamaha Avr shame its soo old and kind of on its last legs now

Expectation bias and placebo play such a huge part in what you perceive. The level matching is really important too. Even a .5 or 1 dB difference can make one sound "better" than the other when really it's just the slight difference in volume that makes it stand out.

 

[PENG]

Ith

Thats no true theArcam SA 20 does have ht bypass on it only they call it processor mode

That is a good point but it is still true that the SA 20 does not have a HT Bypass. If you read the manual, it says "Processor Mode (PM) Volume Specify the required volume level for the processor mode input. The default is volume is 30. "

So it is obvious that it does not bypass, but simplify set it to a fixed level of your choice, to avoid the danger of having two variable volume control. I guess it is a cost saving issue so they resort to such a compromised solution via software, avoiding the cost of extra hardware, smart, but..

If it a real bypass, you won't be able to set the "fixed" level, it would be fixed at the maximum level because there won't be any volume control in between. I hope that is clear.

 

[smallboydanger]

That is a good point but it is still true that the SA 20 does not have a HT Bypass. If you read the manual, it says "Processor Mode (PM) Volume Specify the required volume level for the processor mode input. The default is volume is 30. "

So it is obvious that it does not bypass, but simplify set it to a fixed level of your choice, to avoid the danger of having two variable volume control. If it a real bypass, you won't be able to set the "fixed" level, it would be fixed at the maximum level because there won't be any volume control in between. I hope that is clear.

Oh ok thanks for clarification on that

 

[PENG]

Oh ok thanks for clarification on that

It is still a good feature though, that safeguards against accidental damage to speakers when two preamps are in the path.

 

[smallboydanger]

It is still a good feature though, that safeguards against accidental damage to speakers when two preamps are in the path.

Thank you but the parasound is over my budget on the other hand what do you think of this
Roksan K3 integrated review | What Hi-Fi?

Home review

An excellent all-rounder that not only delivers big sound, energy and texture in spades but does so for a very reasonable price

www.whathifi.com

or maybe this as a power amplifier?

Crown XLS 1502

Power Amplifier DriveCore 2, Class D circuit, Power: 2x 775 W / 2 Ohm, 2x 525 W / 4 Ohm, 2x 300 W / 8 Ohm, bridged 1x 1550 W / 4 Ohm, bridged 1x 1050 W / 8 Ohm, Amplifier modes: 2-channel stereo, bridged mono or Y mode, 24 dB Linkwitz-Riley...

www.thomann.de

 

[smallboydanger]

Expectation bias and placebo play such a huge part in what you perceive. The level matching is really important too. Even a .5 or 1 dB difference can make one sound "better" than the other when really it's just the slight difference in volume that makes it stand out.

How about using this as a power amplifier I know its meant more for pro audio?

Crown XLS 1502

Power Amplifier DriveCore 2, Class D circuit, Power: 2x 775 W / 2 Ohm, 2x 525 W / 4 Ohm, 2x 300 W / 8 Ohm, bridged 1x 1550 W / 4 Ohm, bridged 1x 1050 W / 8 Ohm, Amplifier modes: 2-channel stereo, bridged mono or Y mode, 24 dB Linkwitz-Riley...

www.thomann.de

 

[Pogre]

How about using this as a power amplifier I know its meant more for pro audio?

Crown XLS 1502

Power Amplifier DriveCore 2, Class D circuit, Power: 2x 775 W / 2 Ohm, 2x 525 W / 4 Ohm, 2x 300 W / 8 Ohm, bridged 1x 1550 W / 4 Ohm, bridged 1x 1050 W / 8 Ohm, Amplifier modes: 2-channel stereo, bridged mono or Y mode, 24 dB Linkwitz-Riley...

www.thomann.de

Those are pretty decent amps. A few guys here use them. Fan noise is a possible issue, but from what I've seen it's a powerful little amp.

 

[PENG]

Thank you but the parasound is over my budget on the other hand what do you think of this
Roksan K3 integrated review | What Hi-Fi?

Home review

An excellent all-rounder that not only delivers big sound, energy and texture in spades but does so for a very reasonable price

www.whathifi.com

I am surprised, the A23+ is listed under $1,500 to $1,600 in the USA.

If the Roksan K3 integrated amp is in your budget then I think it is a winner. I know nothing about it other than its excellent specs, and it has a real HT bypass. Is there a reason why you won't go for the K3 power amp?