Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[Irvrobinson]

The average audiophile doesn't even have a clue of what those two terms mean. Nor does he care.

Just curious... have you read post #13?

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Just curious... have you read post #13?

As a matter of fact, yes.

And I'm looking forward to the "ample supply of alcohol involved".

Hope to see you there.

 

[john24061968]

very interesting when they do these ABX --- tests --- how they never go into the actual enviroment --- of those of us -- who it is very obvious -- that amps do sound -- different -- I.E ---- test -- our ears --- with equipment -- that we know -- which is out own hifi equipment --- then let --- the games -- begin --- and then have the amplifeirs being changed --- funny how this test is never done ---

-- and yes you can hide our equipment so we can't see if it is our own hifi equipment or the (other amplifier)

as a metaphor ---- it its like a person who you know intimately well -----(our own hifi equipment)-----and then you go somewhere --- and you are meeting a person for the first time -- who you have no idea about their character -(persona)-(personality) (ABX TEST)

that is the easiest -- way to explain the hifi -- situation --- test all us supposedly deaf(stupid) -- people in our own environment -- and yes you can make sure we cant see our own equipment -- amplifiers and so on ---

also sorry being blunt as it gets --- why is it that that some of the people who say all amplifiers -- sound the same --- happen to own in the grand scheme of things --- pretty cheap hifi equipment

maybe a bit of envy --- ???---or not

it is all horses for courses -- at the end of the day --- as i have no doubt --- if someone has the hifi equipment further up the ladder from where -- i am-- they proberbly think of what i have as cheap and cheerful --- thats life -- just saying

SPEAKERS :- ENERGY VERITAS V2.8
PREAMP:- HOVLAND HP100
POWER AMP:- CLASSE CA200
CABLES:- CARDAS QUAD LINK 5C

 

[PENG]

why is it that that some of the people who say all amplifiers -- sound the same --- happen to own in the grand scheme of things --- pretty cheap hifi equipment

Not sure if you are late to the party, as I alluded to before, no one has really ever said such a thing on this forum, not without qualifications. This thread, obvious started by a robot (bad robot I guess ) asked the question without stating any preconditions.

So in theory, everyone should have voted yes because all amplifiers imply "all" that therefore include those >100 W $55 stereo amps and the available on Amazon and the likes of the >$100,000 Boulder mono block pairs. Who would think/believe such amps would sound the same under any conditions?

As to your point regarding "envy", I doubt that as many voters do own expensive and so called "high end" (relatively speaking) electronic gear and loudspeakers. It is more about science/engineering/data/measurements based opinions vs subjective listening experience based opinions.

 

[Speedskater]

very interesting when they do these ABX --- tests --- how they never go into the actual enviroment --- of those of us -- who it is very obvious -- that amps do sound -- different -- I.E ---- test -- our ears --- with equipment -- that we know -- which is out own hifi equipment --- then let --- the games -- begin --- and then have the amplifeirs being changed --- funny how this test is never done ---

-- and yes you can hide our equipment so we can't see if it is our own hifi equipment or the (other amplifier)

In the past that could have easily been arranged, but there was little interest from the audiophiles that thought they heard a difference.
Maybe in the future, we could do these types of tests.
Don't think that all amplifiers sound the same. Don't that that all amplifier that pass a few simple tests sound the same. But if they sound different there are real engineering reasons why the sound different.

 

[AVUser001]

I liked this quote from an earlier post in this thread

"Someone recently said that if not driven to clip, all SS amps sound the same. Do all SS amps sound the same?

Cordell's answer:
No, because they all misbehave differently. However, well-designed SS amps operating well below clipping, that are not misbehaving, and which have high damping factor across the band, will tend to sound the same…"

 

[cornemuse]

Does this include audio portion of AV recievers? Because tho I'm ½ deaf, I can tell easily. I have an old Kenwood stereo amp, with media player input to actually 2x rca's -> CD in (video to cheap portable 8" tv, only need this to get started or change folders/etc) With K-wood, music sounds sooo sweet.
Moving ahead a 5 ± year old Sony avr, sounds not as good as the K-wood, now,
yamaha tsr7850, music, sound is poor, Sony even sounds better, video music/voice terrible.
Plus, the yamaha, I gave up on setting the BS 'scene' business. If I hit the wrong button, volume setting reverts to what yammer thinks(?) I want, tone settings are bypassed/etc, very frustrating.
Right now I have 'conjunctivitis' (pink eye!) highly contageous, so waiting for this to clear up, Costco will let me wait till its gone to return the yahama

-c-

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

"also sorry being blunt as it gets --- why is it that that some of the people who say all amplifiers -- sound the same --- happen to own in the grand scheme of things --- pretty cheap hifi equipment"

Yeah man. There's some real cheap-sounding electrons out there. You better be careful.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

"Right now I have 'conjunctivitis' (pink eye!) highly contageous, so waiting for this to clear up, Costco will let me wait till its gone to return the yahama"

Please disinfect that Yamaha first.

 

[PENG]

I liked this quote from an earlier post in this thread

"Someone recently said that if not driven to clip, all SS amps sound the same. Do all SS amps sound the same?

Cordell's answer:
No, because they all misbehave differently. However, well-designed SS amps operating well below clipping, that are not misbehaving, and which have high damping factor across the band, will tend to sound the same…"

That's exactly my point, that one has to at least state some conditions under which the units are compared. Otherwise the blanket answer to the blanket question would have to be "No", that is, not all amps would sound the same. If anyone on this thread has made such blanket statement, I would be interested to see a link to it. The one you quoted is still too vague, for one thing, "clipping" is not well defined or at least not standardized though 0.1% and 1% are often cited by print magazines including Stereophile. Cordell's would seem much more reasonable.

 

[PENG]

Does this include audio portion of AV recievers? Because tho I'm ½ deaf, I can tell easily. I have an old Kenwood stereo amp, with media player input to actually 2x rca's -> CD in (video to cheap portable 8" tv, only need this to get started or change folders/etc) With K-wood, music sounds sooo sweet.
Moving ahead a 5 ± year old Sony avr, sounds not as good as the K-wood, now,
yamaha tsr7850, music, sound is poor, Sony even sounds better, video music/voice terrible.
Plus, the yamaha, I gave up on setting the BS 'scene' business. If I hit the wrong button, volume setting reverts to what yammer thinks(?) I want, tone settings are bypassed/etc, very frustrating.
Right now I have 'conjunctivitis' (pink eye!) highly contageous, so waiting for this to clear up, Costco will let me wait till its gone to return the yahama

-c-

Yes, they should be included, but no, you can't rely on subjective listening experience especially if done sighted and/or without making sure all other conditions remain the same.

 

[AVUser001]

The one you quoted is still too vague, for one thing, "clipping" is not well defined or at least not standardized though 0.1% and 1% are often cited by print magazines including Stereophile. Cordell's would seem much more reasonable.

1% is -40dB . Isnt that high enough distortion to become a factor, when it comes to faithful sound reproduction?
0.1% is -60 dB. Probably approaching the inaudible range.

I'm no Cordell..,but I'd have replaced "clipping" with "threshold of audible distortion" in that sentence....to read

"However, well-designed SS amps operating well below <threshold of audible distortion>, that are not misbehaving, and which have high damping factor across the band, will tend to sound the same…"

and again there are different thresholds published.

 

[Pogre]

Does this include audio portion of AV recievers? Because tho I'm ½ deaf, I can tell easily. I have an old Kenwood stereo amp, with media player input to actually 2x rca's -> CD in (video to cheap portable 8" tv, only need this to get started or change folders/etc) With K-wood, music sounds sooo sweet.
Moving ahead a 5 ± year old Sony avr, sounds not as good as the K-wood, now,
yamaha tsr7850, music, sound is poor, Sony even sounds better, video music/voice terrible.
Plus, the yamaha, I gave up on setting the BS 'scene' business. If I hit the wrong button, volume setting reverts to what yammer thinks(?) I want, tone settings are bypassed/etc, very frustrating.
Right now I have 'conjunctivitis' (pink eye!) highly contageous, so waiting for this to clear up, Costco will let me wait till its gone to return the yahama

-c-

Boy, lots of different factors to account for that could explain the differences you're hearing. Tone controls, EQ (or lack thereof) and level matching being a couple. Comparing amps and receivers apples to apples is trickier than it sounds sometimes.

 

[lovinthehd]

very interesting when they do these ABX --- tests --- how they never go into the actual enviroment --- of those of us -- who it is very obvious -- that amps do sound -- different -- I.E ---- test -- our ears --- with equipment -- that we know -- which is out own hifi equipment --- then let --- the games -- begin --- and then have the amplifeirs being changed --- funny how this test is never done ---

-- and yes you can hide our equipment so we can't see if it is our own hifi equipment or the (other amplifier)

as a metaphor ---- it its like a person who you know intimately well -----(our own hifi equipment)-----and then you go somewhere --- and you are meeting a person for the first time -- who you have no idea about their character -(persona)-(personality) (ABX TEST)

that is the easiest -- way to explain the hifi -- situation --- test all us supposedly deaf(stupid) -- people in our own environment -- and yes you can make sure we cant see our own equipment -- amplifiers and so on ---

also sorry being blunt as it gets --- why is it that that some of the people who say all amplifiers -- sound the same --- happen to own in the grand scheme of things --- pretty cheap hifi equipment

maybe a bit of envy --- ???---or not

it is all horses for courses -- at the end of the day --- as i have no doubt --- if someone has the hifi equipment further up the ladder from where -- i am-- they proberbly think of what i have as cheap and cheerful --- thats life -- just saying

SPEAKERS :- ENERGY VERITAS V2.8
PREAMP:- HOVLAND HP100
POWER AMP:- CLASSE CA200
CABLES:- CARDAS QUAD LINK 5C

Hard to take someone seriously who buys Cardas cables....

 

[Beave]

very interesting when they do these ABX --- tests --- how they never go into the actual enviroment --- of those of us -- who it is very obvious -- that amps do sound -- different -- I.E ---- test -- our ears --- with equipment -- that we know -- which is out own hifi equipment --- then let --- the games -- begin --- and then have the amplifeirs being changed --- funny how this test is never done ---

-- and yes you can hide our equipment so we can't see if it is our own hifi equipment or the (other amplifier)

as a metaphor ---- it its like a person who you know intimately well -----(our own hifi equipment)-----and then you go somewhere --- and you are meeting a person for the first time -- who you have no idea about their character -(persona)-(personality) (ABX TEST)

that is the easiest -- way to explain the hifi -- situation --- test all us supposedly deaf(stupid) -- people in our own environment -- and yes you can make sure we cant see our own equipment -- amplifiers and so on ---

also sorry being blunt as it gets --- why is it that that some of the people who say all amplifiers -- sound the same --- happen to own in the grand scheme of things --- pretty cheap hifi equipment

maybe a bit of envy --- ???---or not

it is all horses for courses -- at the end of the day --- as i have no doubt --- if someone has the hifi equipment further up the ladder from where -- i am-- they proberbly think of what i have as cheap and cheerful --- thats life -- just saying

SPEAKERS :- ENERGY VERITAS V2.8
PREAMP:- HOVLAND HP100
POWER AMP:- CLASSE CA200
CABLES:- CARDAS QUAD LINK 5C

I read this --- with the cadence of ---- William --- Shatner --- and was --- impressed --- with your trolling --- ability.

 

[mtrycrafts]

very interesting when they do these ABX --- tests --- how they never go into the actual enviroment --- of those of us -- who it is very obvious -- that amps do sound -- different -- ...

How many test reports have you read that you base this statement on?
Tom Nousaine has gone into golden ears home to test with their gear, their known material. Why test their hearing? After all they are self proclaimed golden ears who could hear differences in everything.
There are others who have done the same.

 

[Auditor55]

 

[Auditor55]

It seems like that amp wasn't designed to that well. Anyway, I think a better question is, should amps sound the same since an amplifier has a single purpose.

 

[Pogre]

It seems like that amp wasn't designed to that well. Anyway, I think a better question is, should amps sound the same since an amplifier has single purpose.

I think since they all have the same goal, to faithfully reproduce audio with the least amount of distortion possible that once you've reached a certain point (distortion is completely inaudible whether .005% or .0005%- neither are audible) then yes, I think they should tend to sound the same operated within limits and all else being equal. If they don't then something is coloring the signal somewhere.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think since they all have the same goal, to faithfully reproduce audio with the least amount of distortion possible that once you've reached a certain point (distortion is completely inaudible whether .005% or .0005%- neither are audible) then yes, I think they should tend to sound the same operated within limits and all else being equal. If they don't then something is coloring the signal somewhere.

No, they do not all sound the same under different loads, and its fanciful to expect that they would and will. Amplifiers are tested with resistive loads, and is therefore limited in telling you how it will drive a given loudspeaker. Very few amp manufacturers actually test their amps under varying condition of load. This was another point that Peter Walker made continuously. For one thing source impedance varies from amp to amp, and those with a higher source impedance will sound more different under varying loads than one that has a very low source impedance. That is one reason that I am keen on Quad amps, as they have a very low source impedance.

In comparison to this issue, measuring amps for minute levels of distortion connected to a resistor gives very limited information. That is what you would expect the way impedance curves look and then even more to the point look at phase angles. When these get to negative 45 then there are huge differences in true and apparent shifts resulting in large current fluxes. To think that all amps will act similarly to these situations is absurd in the extreme. So no all amps do not sound the same. Not by a long shot.