Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[Ken32]

There are a lot of reviews that regard many speakers "well."
B&W 600, and even their 700 series show several flaws in their measurements and electronic behavior (impedance and Phase Angle). Same with the Polks.
How B&W makes those lesser speakers and sells them, I don't get. The reputation is amazing

Polk LSiM703 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I used DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone to measure the Polk LSiM703's frequency response in the farfield, and an Earthworks QTC-40 for the nearfield and spatially averaged room responses. With its ¼" capsule, the Earthworks mike is small enough...

www.stereophile.com

The Lsim don't seem to be as "flawed" as they're made out to be....Especially without being heard first. Lots of reviews/people seem to like them and the series seem to measure pretty well overall... So, an offset measurement here and there make a speaker unsaleable or no good? I've heard MA Silver and to me they're too harsh and nothing special. I hear at 19kHz, maybe that's why they and klipsch sound annoying to me. I wouldn't say they don't know how to make speakers or ask how they sell so well. It's all just preference, isn't it? OTOH I've heard speakers with the claim of "Flat response" that sound dull compared to a "flawed" measured speaker. I don't think measurements regarding speakers are always everything, they’re kind of subjective if your ears don’t like what they’re hearing to begin with.... jmo

 

[Hi-Fi-Guy]

Regarding speakers, it seems I need to do some more research and find best quality for my money.

Yesterday I compared AVRs a lot, RX-A1080 vs some DM, and Onkyo, and some things might or might not be of value.

Yamaha has better DAC specs, 384khz/32 bit vs 192 in others, and Y doesn't downsample when played from USB/network. Also, has higher DSD sampling rate when playing from USB/network at 11.2MHz, 5.6 and 2.8, others can just the latter two.

I do listen FLAC whenever possible, so Im not sure if these differences can be heard and do these specs really make a difference.

I see that all companies have proprietary sound enhancement technologies, like Yamaha's surround:AI, adaptive DRC, Dennon's DDSC, AL32 processing, Marantz HDAM, MDAX2...etc.

Other thing is that Y has weaker power supply and whenever I watched Gene's videos I saw he looves big power supply in an AVR.

 

[Ken32]

Regarding speakers, it seems I need to do some more research and find best quality for my money.

Yesterday I compared AVRs a lot, RX-A1080 vs some DM, and Onkyo, and some things might or might not be of value.

Yamaha has better DAC specs, 384khz/32 bit vs 192 in others, and Y doesn't downsample when played from USB/network. Also, has higher DSD sampling rate when playing from USB/network at 11.2MHz, 5.6 and 2.8, others can just the latter two.

I do listen FLAC whenever possible, so Im not sure if these differences can be heard and do these specs really make a difference.

I see that all companies have proprietary sound enhancement technologies, like Yamaha's surround:AI, adaptive DRC, Dennon's DDSC, AL32 processing, Marantz HDAM, MDAX2...etc.

Other thing is that Y has weaker power supply and whenever I watched Gene's videos I saw he looves big power supply in an AVR.

FWIW The Onkyo TX-RZ840 AV receiver utilizes 32-Bit architecture with Dual 32-Bit DSP Engines and a 384kHz/32-Bit Hi-Grade DAC for exceptional sound quality. The Onkyo TX-RZ840 employs powerful and highly accurate 32-bit DSP (Digital Signal Processor) engines for better surround sound reproduction. The AV receiver also incorporates a premium-quality AK4458 digital-to-analog converter from Asahi Kasei for all channels. This 384kHz/32-bit DAC implements unique low-distortion filtering technologies for clear sound, and unlocks the full potential of of your high resolution multichannel audio formats - including Apple Lossless, FLAC, WAV, DSD, LPCM, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD.

Straight from the source....

The RZ830 uses the same DAC and you could find it much cheaper.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I see. You just made my life more complicated lol. I read on a few places, even here, that they are in fact good speakers, but I guess some people love their equipment too much to be objective

I found B&W 603 5.1 system in Ireland for 3.255$ and thought to get away with them.

What would you suggest me to look for that price range, speaker-wise? I'd go for a 5.1 and later add another sub.

What's available in USA might not be in small country of Ireland

Well, I say "consensus".

What's important is what you think. If you think they sound great, then they sound great regardless of the consensus.

That's one "problem" (for your money) with many audio forums. You will see a lot of "consensuses" that might not coincide with your system.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Regarding speakers, it seems I need to do some more research and find best quality for my money.

Yesterday I compared AVRs a lot, RX-A1080 vs some DM, and Onkyo, and some things might or might not be of value.

Yamaha has better DAC specs, 384khz/32 bit vs 192 in others, and Y doesn't downsample when played from USB/network. Also, has higher DSD sampling rate when playing from USB/network at 11.2MHz, 5.6 and 2.8, others can just the latter two.

I do listen FLAC whenever possible, so Im not sure if these differences can be heard and do these specs really make a difference.

I see that all companies have proprietary sound enhancement technologies, like Yamaha's surround:AI, adaptive DRC, Dennon's DDSC, AL32 processing, Marantz HDAM, MDAX2...etc.

Other thing is that Y has weaker power supply and whenever I watched Gene's videos I saw he looves big power supply in an AVR.

The main reason I personally go with Yamaha:

1A. Might have best reliability.
1B. Might be the ONLY Company (at least in USA) that will Pay for Shipping Both Ways if you ever need Repairs for any Brand New or even Refurbished Warranty Service.
2. Might have best compatibility with HDMI, WiFi, Apps, Streaming.
2. Operates significantly cooler than any Denon/Marantz I've ever used or owned.
3. Giant corporation (makes just about everything) that keeps just about everything IN-HOUSE, not outsourcing like Denon/Marantz and other brands.

These are my personal reasons for CURRENTLY choosing Yamaha. I use words like "Personally" and "Might" because that's just how I feel based on personal experience and what some other dealers and insiders have said (namely @M Code).

 

[Hi-Fi-Guy]

I got the impression that Onkyo is sort of forgotten between D, M & Y. Maybe rightfully, maybe not, I dont know.

Onkyo TX-RZ840 has a whopping 850W! Im not sure if I can find Onkyos in Ireland, will see. Im about to move there in a few months.

So far I have not been using any streaming services, I usually listen FLACs from my computer, but when I read that USB DACs in AVRs downgrade those FLACs a was like well how should I listen if not from the USB?! Isnt the point to use high end DACs on all sources of the AVR and not low-end for the USB...

I've been comparing specs on the www.zkelectronics.com like some kid. it seems like a good website.

 

[Hi-Fi-Guy]

The main reason I personally go with Yamaha:

1. Might have best reliability
2. Might have best compatibility with HDMI, WiFi, Apps
2. Operates significantly cooler than any Denon/Marantz I've ever used or owned
3. Giant corporation (makes just about everything) that keeps just about everything IN-HOUSE, not outsourcing like Denon/Marantz and other brands

These are my personal reasons for CURRENTLY choosing Yamaha. I use words like "Personally" and "Might" because that's just how I feel based on personal experience and what some other dealers and insiders have said (namely @M Code).

Thanks, Im weighing the options, we'll see.

I must tell you, it is a great feeling knowing I will buy a new receiver and speakers in the next few months

Ill try to choose wisely. Yamaha is attractive for me because of somewhat compatibility, but the big power of DM is attractive, too.

 

[Pogre]

Regarding speakers, it seems I need to do some more research and find best quality for my money.

Boom. This.

Don't let others (myself included) tell you what you think sounds good. Because I don't care for the B&W 600 series is irrelevant if you think it sounds good to you. I have some hearing loss so I think a slightly more forward speaker appeals to me more. If you're happy with the sound you have now don't let anyone's opinion convince otherwise. Like you said above, getting out and listening for yourself is the best thing you can do. Anytime you can audition a set in your own home, on your system (look for generous return policies), that's as good as it gets.

We can offer suggestions, but at the end of the day let your ears decide for you.

 

[KEW]

Ill try to choose wisely. Yamaha is attractive for me because of somewhat compatibility, but the big power of DM is attractive, too.

Honestly, I think you will do very well with any of the above (including Onkyo).
If buying Yamaha, I would go with A20X0 or better. The A860 reviewed here revealed some significant problems and I have heard mixed reports on the A10X0, but the 20X0 or 30X0 still have solid amp sections.
Starting over a decade ago, Onkyo was plagued by overheating and HDMI failures that (due to a slow response/fix) resulted in most of us removing them from consideration. Onkyo did make good on warranty claims and it wasn't cheap! For this reason, I am sure that they have addressed the reliability issues, but they still have the damage to their reputation to contend with. Consequently, they may be some of the best deals out there as they try to work their way back into consumer homes.
IMHO, Marantz is essentially an overpriced Denon. They are good units, but since D & M are one company, it made marketing sense to approach sales with the Marantz being positioned as a more expensive audiophile AVR (traditionally retaining phono inputs for those years before vinyl had a resurgence and having more analog inputs and pre-outs than the equivalent Denon). If you catch a special deal on a Marantz, it can offset the extra cost over the (roughly) equivalent Denon. Over the years, the design of Denon and Marantz has continued to take more advantage of the economies of scale associated with using the same components/assemblies. Aside from a special deal on the Marantz, the only reasons I can think of to buy a Marantz over a Denon is 1) because you need the extra analog connectivity, or 2) You just really like the look of the Marantz with the "port window".
Denon is my preference. I do think Yamaha might be a slightly better build, but all of these AVR's are currently designed to last around 8-10 years any more (on the presumption that the changes in technology will already render it obsolete in 10 years)
The reason I go with Denon is because the 3X00 or higher (as well as upper Marantz) has Audyssey XT32 which I believe to be the most advanced of the roomEQ systems along with a $20 phone app that allows you a great level of control over how XT32 is implemented including what frequency range you will apply it to. I believe that with good speakers, RoomEQ is not needed except below ~270Hz where room modes become a major influence. Of course YMMV depending on your room.
Whatever you get, I would spend $22 on a pair of these to make sure your electronics are well ventilated. these fans come with a three speed switch and I find the lowest setting is very quiet and keeps my AVR very close to room temperature.

Amazon.com: AC Infinity MULTIFAN S7, Quiet Dual 120mm USB Fan for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling: Electronics

Amazon.com: AC Infinity MULTIFAN S7, Quiet Dual 120mm USB Fan for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling: Electronics

www.amazon.com

 

[ryanosaur]

Boom. This.

Well said! And this was my message too!

@Hi-Fi-Guy, I researched over 100 different speakers before even going out for an audition.
Reading reviews is a great way to learn some stuff, but much like Billy Joel sings, “you can’t get the sound from a story in a magazine.” The best thing to do is find speakers that interest you, read the reviews... good reviews will site comparisons with other speakers... read those too. Compare reviews written by the same person, and reviews from different people. From this you start to build a vocabulary, so to speak.
When you do get to audition one, compare back to that “knowledge base.” Is it the same, different... how and why? Do you agree with the review... why or why not?

If you are truly lucky, you’ll be able to audition your favorite speakers in your home before fully committing. Sure you may have to buy them, but companies like SVS here in the US give a generous 45-day in home trial with free return shipping. Not many do that, but for those interested, it makes it easier to roll the dice!

That’s my last input on speakers. This isn’t a speaker thread, but wanted to address your coming quest with the best advice I can offer!

Cheers!

 

[ryanosaur]

Honestly, I think you will do very well with any of the above (including Onkyo).
If buying Yamaha, I would go with A20X0 or better. The A860 reviewed here revealed some significant problems and I have heard mixed reports on the A10X0, but the 20X0 or 30X0 still have solid amp sections.
Starting over a decade ago, Onkyo was plagued by overheating and HDMI failures that (due to a slow response/fix) resulted in most of us removing them from consideration. Onkyo did make good on warranty claims and it wasn't cheap! For this reason, I am sure that have addressed the reliability issues, but they still have the damage to their reputation to contend with. For this reason, they may be some of the best deals out there as they try to work their way back into consumer homes.
IMHO, Marantz is essentially an overpriced Denon. They are good units, but since D & M are one company, it made marketing sense to approach sales with the Marantz being positioned as a more expensive audiophile AVR (traditionally retaining phono inputs for those years before vinyl had a resurgence and having more analog inputs and pre-outs than the equivalent Denon). If you catch a special deal on a Marantz, it can offset the extra cost over the (roughly) equivalent Denon. Over the years, the design of Denon and Marantz has continued to take more advantage of the economies of scale associated with using the same components/assemblies. Aside from a special deal on the Marantz, the only reasons I can think of to buy a Marantz over a Denon is 1) because you need the extra analog connectivity, or 2) You just really like the look of the Marantz with the "port window".
Denon is my preference. I do think Yamaha might be a slightly better build, but all of these AVR's are currently designed to last around 8-10 years any more (on the presumption that the changes in technology will already render it obsolete in 10 years)
The reason I go with Denon is because the 3X00 or higher (as well as upper Marantz) has Audyssey XT32 which I believe to be the most advanced of the roomEQ systems along with a $20 phone app that allows you a great level of control over how XT32 is implemented including what frequency range you will apply it to. I believe that with good speakers, RoomEQ is not needed except below ~270Hz where room modes become a major influence. Of course YMMV depending on your room.
Whatever you get, I would spend $22 on a pair of these to make sure your electronics are well ventilated. these fans come with a three speed switch and I find the lowest setting is very quiet and keeps my AVR very close to room temperature.

Amazon.com: AC Infinity MULTIFAN S7, Quiet Dual 120mm USB Fan for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling: Electronics

Amazon.com: AC Infinity MULTIFAN S7, Quiet Dual 120mm USB Fan for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling: Electronics

www.amazon.com

To borrow from my friend, @Pogre :

Boom. This.



Well said, KEW!

My only addition is that in shopping for AVRs, especially above a certain price point, most here agree that in Pure Direct mode they will sound identical. What should be considered more is the usability of the feature set, your comfort with the interface, the connectivity options, and how all of that fits into your plan for your system!

I know that Audyssey, like all room correction is flawed, but with Audyssey XT32, and the App, you can exercise more control over how Audyssey works. Frankly, many here are satisfied by using to correct only below ~250-300Hz (or the Schroeder Frequency of your room).

As always, YMMV.

 

[Hi-Fi-Guy]

Thank you guys for posting, these are all valuable infos. X4500H and RX-A3080 are the ones i believe, but will consider more in the next few months.

As I said lot of the speakers you mentioned and some of the AVRs are not available in Ireland so I'll go with what's available. There is one store in Dublin (https://www.hifihut.ie/home-cinema/av-amplifiers-receivers.html) where I believe I'll go when I move there. It looks promising.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thank you guys for posting, these are all valuable infos. X4500H and RX-A3080 are the ones i believe, but will consider more in the next few months.

As I said lot of the speakers you mentioned and some of the AVRs are not available in Ireland so I'll go with what's available. There is one store in Dublin (https://www.hifihut.ie/home-cinema/av-amplifiers-receivers.html) where I believe I'll go when I move there. It looks promising.

Yeah, the CONSENSUS is that most of the time it comes down to Yamaha vs Denon/Marantz.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Oh, when comparing these brands, you have to also look at warranty service. Yamaha will pay for shipping both ways for both new and refurbished components.

With Denon, Marantz, Anthem, and other brands, you have to pay shipping to them.

 

[ryanosaur]

Oh, when comparing these brands, you have to also look at warranty service. Yamaha will pay for shipping both ways for both new and refurbished components.

With Denon, Marantz, Anthem, and other brands, you have to pay shipping to them.

For my warranty service with D&M/Sound United, they covered shipping to and from the third party service contractor they assigned me to. That was just over a year ago.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For my warranty service with D&M/Sound United, they covered shipping to and from the third party service contractor they assigned me to. That was just over a year ago.

It wasn't Panurgy?

On Marantz Website (which has been my experience with Denon all these years):

• You must pay any shipping charges if it is necessary to ship the product for service. However, if the necessary repairs are covered under warranty, we will pay the return shipping charges to any destination within the United States, its possessions or territories.

Marantz US

m.us.marantz.com

It says the same thing on the Denon/Panurgy site:

http://forms.panurgyoem.com/denon/WARRANTY_DENON_E3_v07(4).pdf

 

[ryanosaur]

It wasn't Panurgy?

On Marantz Website (which has been my experience with Denon all these years):

• You must pay any shipping charges if it is necessary to ship the product for service. However, if the necessary repairs are covered under warranty, we will pay the return shipping charges to any destination within the United States, its possessions or territories.

Marantz US

m.us.marantz.com

It says the same thing on the Denon/Panurgy site:

http://forms.panurgyoem.com/denon/WARRANTY_DENON_E3_v07(4).pdf

No, not Panurgy. Don't recall the name (maybe Adam's Electronics?), but it was an electronics repair specialist in Orange County.
Perhaps Sound United changed their policies, but as my situation was elevated within their CS hierarchy to a Tier 2 Specialist, I said I needed a call tag for shipping what was clearly sold as a defective product, and they did. This was all occurring within the first 90 days of my having the AVR.
It was returned to me with no new diagnosis, but the tech wiped and reinstalled all updates, etc. It didn't take too long before the issue continued, and when I contacted SU again, i followed their same script, and mine: got another call tag for shipping a still-defective product... and this time I started prepping them for replacing it if it couldn't be fixed. (I sent videos of it failing so they, and the tech could see it happen.)
It was almost Christmas when the tech accidentally bumped the unit while running tests on it when she finally replicated the problem, traced it to a fault on the digital board and got it fixed.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No, not Panurgy. Don't recall the name (maybe Adam's Electronics?), but it was an electronics repair specialist in Orange County.
Perhaps Sound United changed their policies, but as my situation was elevated within their CS hierarchy to a Tier 2 Specialist, I said I needed a call tag for shipping what was clearly sold as a defective product, and they did. This was all occurring within the first 90 days of my having the AVR.
It was returned to me with no new diagnosis, but the tech wiped and reinstalled all updates, etc. It didn't take too long before the issue continued, and when I contacted SU again, i followed their same script, and mine: got another call tag for shipping a still-defective product... and this time I started prepping them for replacing it if it couldn't be fixed. (I sent videos of it failing so they, and the tech could see it happen.)
It was almost Christmas when the tech accidentally bumped the unit while running tests on it when she finally replicated the problem, traced it to a fault on the digital board and got it fixed.

I think you got lucky, especially with your unit being only 90 days old.

It probably would have been a different story if your unit were 365 days old or older.

It's also a good thing they didn't require you to use Panurgy.

 

[ryanosaur]

It's also a good thing they didn't require you to use Panurgy.

But...
I've heard such wonderful things!




I think living in CA has its merits afterall.
SU, at least at the time, was clearly using regional repair centers, and unless I am mistaken, Panurgy is NJ. Wheeeee!

 

[Txzick]

The reason I go with Denon is because the 3X00 or higher (as well as upper Marantz) has Audyssey XT32 which I believe to be the most advanced of the roomEQ systems along with a $20 phone app that allows you a great level of control over how XT32 is implemented including what frequency range you will apply it to. I believe that with good speakers, RoomEQ is not needed except below ~270Hz where room modes become a major influence. Of course YMMV depending on your room.

Audyssey XT32 is better than Yamaha EQ but not even close to Dirac.
Room EQ is effected up to 5khz and higher in some rooms.

If you need service out of warranty, avoid Panurgy or be prepared to pay big $, they're very expensive.