Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

Hi-Fi-Guy

Hi-Fi-Guy

Junior Audioholic
If you must have hdcp 2.3 then the AVR-x3600h is the only alternative to the SR6014, but you would have to give up the 7.1 analog inputs that most people don't need. Other than the HDAMs the two are nearly identical in all audio critical areas. If you can give up hdcp 2.3 and the 7.1 analog inputs then the AVR-X4500H and the SR7013 are virtually identical in all audio critical areas, except the HDAMs, that I do not consider an advantage at all.
Thank you man, but what is the gain with HDCP 2.3? Or what would I be missing in the future if I skip on it? It's not that I want it, but it it's to be future proof.

And now when you mentioned it, what's about famous HDAM you don't like? ☺ It is advertised as an advantage for audiophiles.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
And now when you mentioned it, what's about famous HDAM you don't like? ☺ It is advertised as an advantage for audiophiles.
I did not say I dislike it, just don't see the benefits of it based on specs and measurements. If you compare the specs of the 6014 (has HDAM) and the NR1710 (no HDAM), they have the same THD. If you add the HDAM to the X3600H, the preamp/DAC sections will be identical. Now look at the measurements done by ASR, up to 1.5 V the X3500H is practically as good as the AV7705. At above 1.5 V the X3500H lose but that's because at that point the power amp section would clip, the same scenario apparently apply to the SR8012. Gene touched on it in his review on the SR8012, so the SR6014 could only do worse. To alleviate that issue, as Gene pointed out, you would have to set the FL/FR to pre out so those two power amps would be disconnected. For details, read Gene's review on the X3600H. I have the AV8801 that has HDAM, heard no difference, now I am using it in one of my two channel setup. From what I can see, HDAM's claimed benefits in terms of cleaner output is highly doubtful because it seems not logical. Even if it does improve the output signal by 0.0001% or so, it won't be audible anyway. There is no doubt an extra stage may mean more things to generate heat and increase the probability of failure, in other words there are pros and cons so overall may be a wash at best. Again, it is not a matter of like/dislike, just why pay more unless you like the look and need the multi-channel analog inputs.

I was going to buy the SR7013 for back up to my Denon when it was on sale for under US$900 at Bestbuy.ca and Amazon.ca, but decided not to do because by the time I need it we will be on HDCP2.8 and/or HDMI2.6 or higher already.:D I did recommend it over the Denon on this forum at the time, based on the much lower price.
 
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Hi-Fi-Guy

Hi-Fi-Guy

Junior Audioholic
Oh thank you, this is very informative. It's so interesting they tend to market it that well with no measurable benefits.

I do watch movies but two channel music is my passion really. I know I should probably go for some separates, but man must be reasonable and draw a line at some point. I read that dacs in avrs are good and think that with MA Silver 500 any avr would sound great.

I just fell for "Marantz better for music" story..so that's why I write now.

I'm not into analogue so Denon is fine too. I wanted to match Marantz avr with power amp MM7055... looks are important, too
Regarding the X3600 and auto-disconnection of the two amps for FL and FR, it happens only with 11 channel mode. And it's a great feature. I'm not sure if X4500 and X6400 do that too.

And I just realized that 7013 is 1000 eur more expensive than 6014. I missed it somehow.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Regarding the X3600 and auto-disconnection of the two amps for FL and FR, it happens only with 11 channel mode. And it's a great feature. I'm not sure if X4500 and X6400 do that too.

And I just realized that 7013 is 1000 eur more expensive than 6014. I missed it somehow.
Regarding the FL/FR power amp disconnect, all the 2017 through 2018/19 Denon/Marantz models can do it if they are 11 channel processing capable. Yes you have to set it up in the amp assign menu for 11 channels such as 7.2.4, but after that you can go back to the speaker menu to select 5, 7 or 9 channels. 1000 Euro more than the 6014 is ridiculous. In that case the SR6014 is a much better deal if you don't use Auro 3D anyway but the X3600H seems to be the best value.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I don't recall if I mentioned this here on this thread, but there is a difference between the direct modes of Yamaha and Denon/Marantz - favoring the DM.

Yamaha only has one direct mode - PURE DIRECT. It will shut off the front LCD of the AVR. And it will not output the Subwoofer. This is intended to be used for large full-range speakers or for outputting the Front L/R signal to an External Subwoofer Amp for external bass management.

Denon/Marantz has 2 direct modes - PURE DIRECT will shut off the front LCD, while DIRECT will keep the front LCD on. Both direct modes will allow Subwoofer Output if you use LFE+MAIN, instead of LFE THX.
 
S

SimplyEpic

Audioholic
Really late to the party but thought I would add to the discussion with my recent experience at best buy with the Denon 3600, 4500 and Marantz 6014. There was also a Pioneer Elite something but I do not know the exact model and it was very flat and lifeless with the Def Techs and Klipsch 8060's they had connected. Not that the speakers sounded bad it was just a flat presentation. Take this with a bucket of salt since it was at best buy and the store has issues. There were many speakers and receivers that were not available but on display and also several of the connected speakers were poorly configured. They had Yamaha receivers but all of the interfaces were locked down so we could not use them. The guy at best buy told me they were junk and he see's a lot returned for multiple issues and not worth listening to compared to the others. Personally I think he was just working on the sale and trying to steer me in a general direction.

The one thing I did notice was the 3600 seemed muffled. The sound on multiple speakers sounded like there was some sort of filter in place. I was not able to see what any of the configurations were set to but it was not pleasant and seemed like everything was under powered. The 4500 was much better but still had a slight filtered sound. It was like I had ear muffs on. I could hear and tell the difference in speakers but the sound was not clean.
The Marantz was the best. They had it in 2 different rooms and I was able to hear it with many speakers and subs. The sound just came through warm but detailed. Very dynamic as well. I thought it was just overall good sound with almost all the speakers I tried. The Matin Logans and Klipsch worked amazingly well with it. I did not get to try as many speakers as I would have liked and will be trying a few other stores soon and will hopefully get to hear a few other receivers and many more speakers.

I can also say while the Denon and Marantz receivers were both a bit warm they were all about the same temp and none were hot to the touch. I did manage to push them a bit as well but not for extended periods of time. Overall I spent about an hour and a half trying different sets of speaker, sub and receiver combos and listening to a few songs.

Hope this helps.
 
M

mtrot

Full Audioholic
Really late to the party but thought I would add to the discussion with my recent experience at best buy with the Denon 3600, 4500 and Marantz 6014. There was also a Pioneer Elite something but I do not know the exact model and it was very flat and lifeless with the Def Techs and Klipsch 8060's they had connected. Not that the speakers sounded bad it was just a flat presentation. Take this with a bucket of salt since it was at best buy and the store has issues. There were many speakers and receivers that were not available but on display and also several of the connected speakers were poorly configured. They had Yamaha receivers but all of the interfaces were locked down so we could not use them. The guy at best buy told me they were junk and he see's a lot returned for multiple issues and not worth listening to compared to the others. Personally I think he was just working on the sale and trying to steer me in a general direction.

The one thing I did notice was the 3600 seemed muffled. The sound on multiple speakers sounded like there was some sort of filter in place. I was not able to see what any of the configurations were set to but it was not pleasant and seemed like everything was under powered. The 4500 was much better but still had a slight filtered sound. It was like I had ear muffs on. I could hear and tell the difference in speakers but the sound was not clean.
The Marantz was the best. They had it in 2 different rooms and I was able to hear it with many speakers and subs. The sound just came through warm but detailed. Very dynamic as well. I thought it was just overall good sound with almost all the speakers I tried. The Matin Logans and Klipsch worked amazingly well with it. I did not get to try as many speakers as I would have liked and will be trying a few other stores soon and will hopefully get to hear a few other receivers and many more speakers.

I can also say while the Denon and Marantz receivers were both a bit warm they were all about the same temp and none were hot to the touch. I did manage to push them a bit as well but not for extended periods of time. Overall I spent about an hour and a half trying different sets of speaker, sub and receiver combos and listening to a few songs.

Hope this helps.
Something had to be wrong with those best buy setups. None of those receivers should have sounded "muffled" or "filtered". If set up equally well, they should have sounded very similar on the same set of speakers. I wouldn't put too much stock in that visit, maybe try a different location before making any decision.
 
S

SimplyEpic

Audioholic
I plan to. The Pioneer did shock me a bit. Even with the off sound from the Denon they still sounded more lively than the Pioneer. Like I say the place was in rough shape. I am looking at getting an appointment at 2 other places. 1 which does consulting but says they have some demos available and I also want to try a few other Best Buys just to see if they are any better and it was a single store problem. Either way there were some definite differences. Even looking past the "muffled" characteristic that those specific receivers were showing I did like the sound of the Marantz better. It just seemed fuller and more complete in the presentation. I believe it is due to the processing but there are little details in the songs that I am familiar with on my current system that I could pick out with the Marantz that were missing from the Denons. note that my current system upmixes to 5.1 and I believe the Marantz may have been doing the same when the Denon's might not have been. It would have been so much better if I could have checked the settings or even for that matter been able to use either my phone or USB drive for song sampling.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
I plan to. The Pioneer did shock me a bit. Even with the off sound from the Denon they still sounded more lively than the Pioneer. Like I say the place was in rough shape. I am looking at getting an appointment at 2 other places. 1 which does consulting but says they have some demos available and I also want to try a few other Best Buys just to see if they are any better and it was a single store problem. Either way there were some definite differences. Even looking past the "muffled" characteristic that those specific receivers were showing I did like the sound of the Marantz better. It just seemed fuller and more complete in the presentation. I believe it is due to the processing but there are little details in the songs that I am familiar with on my current system that I could pick out with the Marantz that were missing from the Denons. note that my current system upmixes to 5.1 and I believe the Marantz may have been doing the same when the Denon's might not have been. It would have been so much better if I could have checked the settings or even for that matter been able to use either my phone or USB drive for song sampling.
They could be differently setup easily enough for eq/basic speaker setup. Or using different sound modes. Or not level matched. Hard to compare avrs in a store....especially since the basic comparison (in a pure direct mode avoiding all dsp/sound modes) likely wouldn't reveal a difference.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I plan to. The Pioneer did shock me a bit. Even with the off sound from the Denon they still sounded more lively than the Pioneer. Like I say the place was in rough shape. I am looking at getting an appointment at 2 other places. 1 which does consulting but says they have some demos available and I also want to try a few other Best Buys just to see if they are any better and it was a single store problem. Either way there were some definite differences. Even looking past the "muffled" characteristic that those specific receivers were showing I did like the sound of the Marantz better. It just seemed fuller and more complete in the presentation. I believe it is due to the processing but there are little details in the songs that I am familiar with on my current system that I could pick out with the Marantz that were missing from the Denons. note that my current system upmixes to 5.1 and I believe the Marantz may have been doing the same when the Denon's might not have been. It would have been so much better if I could have checked the settings or even for that matter been able to use either my phone or USB drive for song sampling.
Sorry to be blunt, such comparison in a BB store is a waste of time, if the goal is to pick out the one that sounds the best to you. That is true even for golden ears who are 100 % subjective based. You can certainty use such venue to compare feature sets and see which one looks best to you.
 
S

SimplyEpic

Audioholic
No worries @PENG .
When out at the stores I am not looking for the sound I expect to hear when I get them home but do look for the personalities and characteristics of the equipment. Things such as tending towards a warm or brighter sound or being forward to delicate. I try to match these characteristics with my room as a start so I can have a slight idea of the sound with my room acoustics. If I know say a speaker is really bright and there is a echo characteristic to my room that can't be tamed such as with cathedral windows I may look at warmer equipment to prevent ear fatigue. Just the opposite may be true in a different room in the house that is very well dampened where the brightness will help bring out the details and add life to an otherwise thick room, just as examples. I know that my room and the configurations to match the room to the equipment plays a major role in the outcome of the sound but just use this as a starting point :cool: .
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Really late to the party but thought I would add to the discussion with my recent experience at best buy with the Denon 3600, 4500 and Marantz 6014. There was also a Pioneer Elite something but I do not know the exact model and it was very flat and lifeless with the Def Techs and Klipsch 8060's they had connected. Not that the speakers sounded bad it was just a flat presentation. Take this with a bucket of salt since it was at best buy and the store has issues. There were many speakers and receivers that were not available but on display and also several of the connected speakers were poorly configured. They had Yamaha receivers but all of the interfaces were locked down so we could not use them. The guy at best buy told me they were junk and he see's a lot returned for multiple issues and not worth listening to compared to the others. Personally I think he was just working on the sale and trying to steer me in a general direction.

The one thing I did notice was the 3600 seemed muffled. The sound on multiple speakers sounded like there was some sort of filter in place. I was not able to see what any of the configurations were set to but it was not pleasant and seemed like everything was under powered. The 4500 was much better but still had a slight filtered sound. It was like I had ear muffs on. I could hear and tell the difference in speakers but the sound was not clean.
The Marantz was the best. They had it in 2 different rooms and I was able to hear it with many speakers and subs. The sound just came through warm but detailed. Very dynamic as well. I thought it was just overall good sound with almost all the speakers I tried. The Matin Logans and Klipsch worked amazingly well with it. I did not get to try as many speakers as I would have liked and will be trying a few other stores soon and will hopefully get to hear a few other receivers and many more speakers.

I can also say while the Denon and Marantz receivers were both a bit warm they were all about the same temp and none were hot to the touch. I did manage to push them a bit as well but not for extended periods of time. Overall I spent about an hour and a half trying different sets of speaker, sub and receiver combos and listening to a few songs.

Hope this helps.
As already mentioned, I think it’s usually related to the setup of the system.

Auto Room EQ vs Direct Mode vs Manual EQ?

Some people don’t like a “Flat” in-room frequency response, some do.

Did you notice if they used auto room EQ (Audyssey) on some setups?
 
S

SimplyEpic

Audioholic
Unfortunately I was not able to see how they had any of them setup. The controls were mostly locked so I could't even switch most of them to different sources. When me and the Blue shirt tried we could not the receivers to connect to my phone or even use the USB drive I pulled from my truck that only has music on it. Overall it was a bad experience but I just wanted to add my experience to the conversation that started the thread about the comparison of the different receivers is all.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I was looking at some AVRs from S&V magazine. This was before they stopped doing measurements.

But looking at some 4 ohm/2Ch power measurements, which is probably most indicative of true power performance, it looks like the Yamaha RX-A2000 series might be the most "cost-effective" in terms of dollar per watt when looking at Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, and Anthem. The $6000 Arcam is definitely the LEAST cost-effective. :D

But the bottom line might be that ANY of these AVRs, ranging from 173W to almost 300W, could probably power 99% of the systems in most rooms that are 18ft x 20ft or smaller.

Yamaha RX-A3000 series $2,000 294W x 2Ch 4 ohms
Denon X7200 $3000 266W x 2Ch 4 ohms
Yamaha RX-A2000 series $1600 260W x 2Ch 4 ohms
Arcam AVR850 $6000 249W x 2Ch 4 ohms
Anthem MRX 1120 $3500 243W x 2Ch 4 ohms
Denon X4000 series $1700 240W x 2Ch 4 ohms
Marantz SR7000 series $2,200 232W x 2Ch 4 ohms
Denon X3000 series $1200 177W x 2Ch 4 ohms
Yamaha RX-A1000 series $1200 173W x 2Ch 4 ohms
 
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Ken32

Ken32

Full Audioholic
If we’re talking power/cost why no mention of the Onkyo RZ series?

the 830 can be had for half the cost of a Yamaha 1000 series. 9.2 channel Expandable and 250wpc @ 4ohm x2ch.:cool:
3A97E952-5CA6-454B-A52E-E3BF477AE49A.png
 
K

Kleinst

Junior Audioholic
I did not say I dislike it, just don't see the benefits of it based on specs and measurements. If you compare the specs of the 6014 (has HDAM) and the NR1710 (no HDAM), they have the same THD. If you add the HDAM to the X3600H, the preamp/DAC sections will be identical. Now look at the measurements done by ASR, up to 1.5 V the X3500H is practically as good as the AV7705. At above 1.5 V the X3500H lose but that's because at that point the power amp section would clip, the same scenario apparently apply to the SR8012. Gene touched on it in his review on the SR8012, so the SR6014 could only do worse. To alleviate that issue, as Gene pointed out, you would have to set the FL/FR to pre out so those two power amps would be disconnected. For details, read Gene's review on the X3600H. I have the AV8801 that has HDAM, heard no difference, now I am using it in one of my two channel setup. From what I can see, HDAM's claimed benefits in terms of cleaner output is highly doubtful because it seems not logical. Even if it does improve the output signal by 0.0001% or so, it won't be audible anyway. There is no doubt an extra stage may mean more things to generate heat and increase the probability of failure, in other words there are pros and cons so overall may be a wash at best. Again, it is not a matter of like/dislike, just why pay more unless you like the look and need the multi-channel analog inputs.

I was going to buy the SR7013 for back up to my Denon when it was on sale for under US$900 at Bestbuy.ca and Amazon.ca, but decided not to do because by the time I need it we will be on HDCP2.8 and/or HDMI2.6 or higher already.:D I did recommend it over the Denon on this forum at the time, based on the much lower price.

Good someone else that tries to talk themself in and out of buying "Backup" gear :) I try to figure it it wouldn't replace what I have now I shouldn't buy it (it's ok if it puts my present item in backup) Reality it it's better to just save money for when we need something but that's not as fun :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If we’re talking power/cost why no mention of the Onkyo RZ series?

the 830 can be had for half the cost of a Yamaha 1000 series. 9.2 channel Expandable and 250wpc @ 4ohm x2ch.:cool:View attachment 38121
We don't even touch any Onkyo with a 10ft pole around this thread. :D

Only Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Anthem, and maybe, just maybe Sony. That is IT. :D
 
K

Kleinst

Junior Audioholic
We don't even touch any Onkyo with a 10ft pole around this thread. :D

Only Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Anthem, and maybe, just maybe Sony. That is IT. :D

I have Sony STRZA-3100ES and really like it. Less features but not ones I use anyways. I think the Sony ES line is under rated.

Also have a Marantz SR6013 but using pre outs for all channels. It does fine but no better than the Sony really.

I am curious to hear what Yamaha 3060-3080 would sound like at home. Maybe I'll buy one of those next time my AVR dies (hope not soon). The people at Accessories4less steered me away from the 2080 or 3080 for some reason saying they had more returns of those with problems for people running 9 channels. I don't really understand why when most talk of Yamaha as being the most reliable.

I wonder if its more likely that you look at relative price bands across brands as fairly comparable vs one brand vs another.

By the way on Onkyo, still bitter about 2 failed by their HDMI issue and haven't been able to buy another one of those just yet.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
...it's better to just save money for when we need something but that's not as fun :)
It's still very fun as long as that MONEY is already SECURED in a separate online bank account ready to be used within seconds when needed. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I have Sony STRZA-3100ES and really like it. Less features but not ones I use anyways. I think the Sony ES line is under rated.

Also have a Marantz SR6013 but using pre outs for all channels. It does fine but no better than the Sony really.

I am curious to hear what Yamaha 3060-3080 would sound like at home. Maybe I'll buy one of those next time my AVR dies (hope not soon). The people at Accessories4less steered me away from the 2080 or 3080 for some reason saying they had more returns of those with problems for people running 9 channels. I don't really understand why when most talk of Yamaha as being the most reliable.

I wonder if its more likely that you look at relative price bands across brands as fairly comparable vs one brand vs another.

By the way on Onkyo, still bitter about 2 failed by their HDMI issue and haven't been able to buy another one of those just yet.
I think if you look at all the recommendations here, it comes down to Denon, Marantz, and Yamaha. Very few people own Anthem or Sony.

When it comes to Auto EQ, it's Audyssey.

When it comes to manual EQ, it's Yamaha's Parametric EQ.

When it comes to remote control and streaming apps, it depends on how things worked out for you.

Yamaha is supposed to be #1 in reliability. I hope so. :D
 

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