Will adding an old Mcintosh Power Amp to my Onkyo AVR enhance stereo sound

[everettT]

Just considering logic wise, if its the case why arent they being called out? I am sure there would be enough consumers who actually do not derive any benefits and do not fall into expectation bias or placebo effect; call a spade a spade and challenge these reviewers. In fact the far opposite seems to be happening. The reviewers are growing. The products are expanding. And consumers are buying more. For example, I checked out reviews for the MC 7100 and so many of them who have added it to their AVRs or preamps have been sharing how audible the diiference was; how the sound signature was enhanced; how sweet their music has become. No one was.challenged that what they may have interpreted may actually be a placebo effect or expectation bias. Could all of them be wrong? Logically it doesnt make sense. But i get the argument. Just curious.

There are equal sides to the equation. Some of those reviews with meaning measurements are good, you just have to gloss over the nonsense. Said nonsense is easy to spot, so no biggie for me.

I've owned esoteric and boutique amps in the past, including McIntosh, and have found that other than cosmetics and a badge, I can find quality amplification for considerably less money. As stated throughout the thread, there are times that external amps are needed (in your case, not so much given the spec is so close) and in those cases if you want to buy esoteric brands and can, go for it.

 

[Ramesh47]

Tks for sharing your reasoning. The process has been a good education. As you say there are 2 sides of the equation. And that sums it up best.

 

[PENG]

Could all of them be wrong? Logically it doesnt make sense. But i get the argument. Just curious.

Have you seen the many types of performance graphs for, say power amps, and speakers?

Since you are "just curious", take a look of some examples below, all from right here at audioholics.com

Note that the two speakers obviously have enough difference in their frequency response alone for them to sound very different even in an anechoic chamber. Not so much difference for the two amplifiers, one being the $599 5X100 W Outlaw power amp, the other the $4,999 Marantz PM-11S3 2X100 W integrated amp. Obviously the Marantz showed much lower distortion and have better specs in other areas, but even the much less impressive Outlaw's specs/measurable performance would seem too low to be deemed discernible by normal people.

So logically speaking, why do those people worry so much about amps when the "logically" speaking, their speakers are not going to have the resolution to show them (audibly..) the minute performance difference between good quality amps anyway?

My guess: specs and measurable performance criteria are too complicated/technical for most to comprehend, whereas price, looks, higher quality parts used are much easier to understand and be appreciated, whether they would result in audible differences or not.

By the way, you can see even just a little off axis, the frequency response could be quite different too, so even in properly conducted "blind" listening test, "logically speaking" again, people better sit 100% still and keep their ears in the same position full time during the tests.

Bowers & Wilkins 603 Tower Speaker Review

At $1,800/pr, Bowers & Wilkins 603 is their least expensive floor standing speaker. Read our full review to see what Bowers & Wilkins can do at such an accessible price bracket and how it performed.

www.audioholics.com

Paradigm Persona 5F Tower Loudspeaker Review

The Paradigm Persona 5F is a three-way tower speaker featuring a beryllium midwoofer & tweeter, and (3) 7" bass drivers. Read our review to see if Paradigm's engineering excellence is worth the price.

www.audioholics.com

 

[lovinthehd]

Just considering logic wise, if its the case why arent they being called out? I am sure there would be enough consumers who actually do not derive any benefits and do not fall into expectation bias or placebo effect; call a spade a spade and challenge these reviewers. In fact the far opposite seems to be happening. The reviewers are growing. The products are expanding. And consumers are buying more. For example, I checked out reviews for the MC 7100 and so many of them who have added it to their AVRs or preamps have been sharing how audible the diiference was; how the sound signature was enhanced; how sweet their music has become. No one was.challenged that what they may have interpreted may actually be a placebo effect or expectation bias. Could all of them be wrong? Logically it doesnt make sense. But i get the argument. Just curious.

In the US they're not called out by FTC much, they can be elsewhere on occasion, tho

The Chord Company Ltd

www.asa.org.uk

https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/naim-audio-ltd-a15-304328.html

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

If it was easy for people to set up proper AB comparison sessions, even just single blinded comparison tests, people wouldn't be asking such questions all the time.

If and only if they agree to participate. Then they will contemplate the what if.... They'd have to return their golden ear membership card.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Just considering logic wise, if its the case why arent they being called out? I am sure there would be enough consumers who actually do not derive any benefits and do not fall into expectation bias or placebo effect; ...

A clarification is needed here. Placebo and expectation biases are not controlled by an on/off switch.
Both are subconscious effects, uncontrolled. Just is and happens.

 

[PENG]

Tks for sharing your reasoning. The process has been a good education. As you say there are 2 sides of the equation. And that sums it up best.

Another example for you here, the measurements for a prestigious power amp, one that was made by Audio Research, much newer than the MC7100 you were (assuming no longer..) considering. Even the lowest rank NAD T758 AVR measured by the same reviewer did better at about 4 W and above in terms of THD+N. Amazing!

So in a way, they do get called out, though people would make excused about things like:
- there are other things that affect sound quality but are/or cannot be measured...etc... If you think about it, there are no logic in such arguments at all right? Did engineers/designers design/build amps by trial and error, and played by ears?

Audio Research 100.2 Power Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audio Research Corporation (ARC) 100.2 stereo power amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. The 100.2 came out in year 1998 at a cost of US $2,995. It was later raised to US $3,495. If I remember correctly, the owner told me this the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[CoryW]

Hi All
Hoping to get some advice on my stereo dilemma

I wish to upgrade my stereo listening music experience.

I currently have a 6000f RP klipsch speakers ( highly sensitive speakers) an Onkyo RZ830 AVR (120 watt per channel 2 channel driven) and a marantz UD 7007 cd player.

I am thinking of getting an older version of used Mcintosh MC 7100 (100 watt per channel) stereo power amp to be connected to my Onkyo receiver to power my front 2 speakers for stereo listening. The Onkyo hence becomes the preamp.

For movies, mcintosh will likewise power amp my front speakers while Onkyo drives my other 5 speakers.
Appreciate it if you could let me know if getting the mcintosh power amp will help significantly in my stereo listening though there is a slight difference in power between the mcintosh and onkyo.
Appreciate your advise pl.
Tks a lot.

For what another opinion is worth. I had a very enjoyable time with my multiple systems playing in the used market. For the largest part. I’ve been using flagship receivers from Pioneer (VSX-59TXI), Onkyo (TX-NR905) and Yamaha (RXV-3800), and now a bouncing baby Lexicon M-8 V2. They were somewhat inexpensive and They all sound wonderful because I put the bigger bucks on speakers. I could not agree more that is the best place to start...........however for the first time, I have a component that stands above the receivers. The lex sound is truly remarkable.
Best of luck

 

[lovinthehd]

For what another opinion is worth. I had a very enjoyable time with my multiple systems playing in the used market. For the largest part. I’ve been using flagship receivers from Pioneer (VSX-59TXI), Onkyo (TX-NR905) and Yamaha (RXV-3800), and now a bouncing baby Lexicon M-8 V2. They were somewhat inexpensive and They all sound wonderful because I put the bigger bucks on speakers. I could not agree more that is the best place to start...........however for the first time, I have a component that stands above the receivers. The lex sound is truly remarkable.
Best of luck

This is what I always think of when I see Lexicon https://www.audioholics.com/blu-ray-and-dvd-player-reviews/lexicon-bd-30-blu-ray-oppo-clone/oppo-inside-lexicon-outside-1

 

[AVUser001]

@Ramesh47 , you may also want to have a look at the video linked in this post 3 Big Wins .

Think you did better than most , in treating your room and not ignore it and spend $$$ on electronics. Like others have pointed out , the Source material & Speakers have the hugest impact in terms of SQ and equally important is the Room acoustics.

An example from my recent audition of different speakers.
Same source material, Same speaker(brand/model), different dealer demo rooms. One sounded a lot smoother and the other not so much(ie brigther). The difference was in the room acoustics. Both rooms were treated with acoustic panels,carpets,bass traps etc. The 2nd room had whole bunch of equipment stacked up (AVRs,Amps - all shiny metallic boxes with nice reflections) in the demo room and separated from outside by huge glass windows & acoustic curtains(far from an ideal demo room!) and still sounded brighter, compared to the other room with no such distractions.
Both were driven by decent amps(Marantz,Cambridge audio)...people can falsely attribute the difference to the amp, if you ignored the room!

But on the amp side, its still important to have sufficient clean power o/p(incl headroom for peaks) for your speakers, so as not to induce any distortion or clipping.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This is what I always think of when I see Lexicon https://www.audioholics.com/blu-ray-and-dvd-player-reviews/lexicon-bd-30-blu-ray-oppo-clone/oppo-inside-lexicon-outside-1

No telling what's inside Lexicon or any so-called high-end pre-pro.

Remember that $18,000 Simaudio CP-8 that uses a Denon AVR-2808?

Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor: A Denon Receiver in Sim Clothing?

Preview: Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor is a modified Denon AVR-2808CI receiver. Yet Simaudio didn't outwardly declare this in their marketing literature, or coordinate with Denon or other tech.

www.audioholics.com

 

[lovinthehd]

No telling what's inside Lexicon or any so-called high-end pre-pro.

Remember that $18,000 Simaudio CP-8 that uses a Denon AVR-2808?

Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor: A Denon Receiver in Sim Clothing?

Preview: Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor is a modified Denon AVR-2808CI receiver. Yet Simaudio didn't outwardly declare this in their marketing literature, or coordinate with Denon or other tech.

www.audioholics.com

Or the Ayre with the Oppo inside.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Or the Ayre with the Oppo inside.

Yeah, so embarrassing.

"Our passion for purity in music reproduction has driven us to design and build no-compromise stereo equipment since 1993."

Yeah, right. More like "our passion for using other people's work and marking them up 2000%".

 

[Ramesh47]

@Ramesh47 , you may also want to have a look at the video linked in this post 3 Big Wins .

Think you did better than most , in treating your room and not ignore it and spend $$$ on electronics. Like others have pointed out , the Source material & Speakers have the hugest impact in terms of SQ and equally important is the Room acoustics.

An example from my recent audition of different speakers.
Same source material, Same speaker(brand/model), different dealer demo rooms. One sounded a lot smoother and the other not so much(ie brigther). The difference was in the room acoustics. Both rooms were treated with acoustic panels,carpets,bass traps etc. The 2nd room had whole bunch of equipment stacked up (AVRs,Amps - all shiny metallic boxes with nice reflections) in the demo room and separated from outside by huge glass windows & acoustic curtains(far from an ideal demo room!) and still sounded brighter, compared to the other room with no such distractions.
Both were driven by decent amps(Marantz,Cambridge audio)...people can falsely attribute the difference to the amp, if you ignored the room!

But on the amp side, its still important to have sufficient clean power o/p(incl headroom for peaks) for your speakers, so as not to induce any distortion or clipping.

Thank you allfor your sharing. It has been rather insghtful and some very passionate , experienced and knowledgeable members here. Certainly the right forum to bounce off ideas. Yes I did room acoustics before considering electronics. The thing about room acoustics for me is I dont like the treated room to be too dead. I like a bit of life in the music. But having put my panels up. I realised removing the carpet or not putting down my blinds ( either/or) which means having my tall glass balcony windows has kind of given the music some life. Rather than the room being too quiet. I have 3 big acoustic panels on my wall opposite my system. I feel some kind of.refelctions are helpful to balance out tye absorption from my panels. My living room is kind of small and I sit about 3metres away from my speakers.

Well after looking at Mcintosh amps. I also came across thise emotiva upa2 decond hand power amp with 125 watts. Its of course much cheaper. There are a lot of rave reviews about it from those who have used it and it seems to have a certain sound signature in you tube videos which seems appealing. Not sure it will be good as a power amp for my onkyp.rz 830 for stereo listening and free up power for movies ( the onkyo which has as you know 120 watts). I know there are 2 camps from what I read. Some who believe amps make no difference and others who.feel certain amps do. Well just reflecting. Anyone has used this particular emotiva power amp care to share your experience?

 

[PENG]

know there are 2 camps from what I read. Some who believe amps make no difference and others who.feel certain amps do. Well just reflecting.

I don't recall anyone suggesting "amps make no difference...." kind of blanket statements, I'd you have seen such posts then I guess the are from the third camp lol..

Well designed amps would make no audible difference under certain conditions for people without the so called golden ears. For example, a 120 W rated upa amp will not likely make an audible difference for 2 channel use in your RZ830 based system, but it may, for multi-channel HT use if you listen at high spl sitting far enough from the speakers.

 

[AVUser001]

Thank you allfor your sharing. It has been rather insghtful and some very passionate , experienced and knowledgeable members here. Certainly the right forum to bounce off ideas. Yes I did room acoustics before considering electronics. The thing about room acoustics for me is I dont like the treated room to be too dead. I like a bit of life in the music. But having put my panels up. I realised removing the carpet or not putting down my blinds ( either/or) which means having my tall glass balcony windows has kind of given the music some life. Rather than the room being too quiet. I have 3 big acoustic panels on my wall opposite my system. I feel some kind of.refelctions are helpful to balance out tye absorption from my panels. My living room is kind of small and I sit about 3metres away from my speakers.

Well after looking at Mcintosh amps. I also came across thise emotiva upa2 decond hand power amp with 125 watts. Its of course much cheaper. There are a lot of rave reviews about it from those who have used it and it seems to have a certain sound signature in you tube videos which seems appealing. Not sure it will be good as a power amp for my onkyp.rz 830 for stereo listening and free up power for movies ( the onkyo which has as you know 120 watts). I know there are 2 camps from what I read. Some who believe amps make no difference and others who.feel certain amps do. Well just reflecting. Anyone has used this particular emotiva power amp care to share your experience?

Right, you dont want the room to be a dead/anechoic chamber either! Only you can be the best judge of what works and what not in your room. Its a fun exercise. A little toe-in of speakers this way or that way can make a difference too.
If reflections are harsh and you dont want to completely absorb them (ie keep it alive), thats where the diffusers come into play..(rather than absorption panels)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Has anyone already said that you don't need any external amp? Just use your AVR.

The Emotiva amp won't make your Klipsch speakers sound any better either.

If the room acoustics is too dead, then remove those panels.

Have you measured your speakers/room with REW?

 

[bombadil]

Anthem's ARC is supposedly very good, but their avr's amp performance is just okay, though the difference in performance between theirs and others are not going to be significant, likely not audible anyway.

Here's some ranking based on SINAD at 5 W output. See that the $549 Denon AVR-X3500H and the $128 Sony STRDH190 beat it by a healthy margin Most people only need a few watts average for home use, (much higher for peaks obviously). Again, no one is suggesting those measurable differences are going to be audible to most people as even the MRX520's higher THD+N was only 0.05 to 0.06%.

Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3500H Home Theater Audio Video Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a member. The AVR-X3500H is a 2018 model but it is still available from Amazon for US $599 despite having a retail price of US $999. If it performs, this is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Review and Measurements of Anthem MRX 520 AVR

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Anthem MRX 520 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). The MRX 520 costs US $1,399 so it is a premium product. The sample I have was kindly sent to me by a member. The Anthem MRX 520 leaves a decent impression as far as look and feel: The...

www.audiosciencereview.com

View attachment 33455

yes, i was disappointed to see these results but it only reinforced my belief in separates (like the remarkable AHB-2!). You just can't put 5, 7, 11 high quality amp channels into a box with all the other components, at least IMO and the results from Amir's testing would support that. Perhaps further development of newer topologies like the THX and D style amps will change that but for now I prefer heavy quality A/B style amps. I use the AVM 60, the MCA 525 for surrounds and a Mac amp for the two mains. It appears that dynamic range or "headroom" in amps is very important and yet difficult to measure. We focus on noise and distortion but as stated most good amps have low enough distortion to be inaudible. Where they differ is in dynamic range, and that takes plenty of power and good heat sinks which are expensive.

 

[PENG]

yes, i was disappointed to see these results but it only reinforced my belief in separates (like the remarkable AHB-2!). You just can't put 5, 7, 11 high quality amp channels into a box with all the other components, at least IMO and the results from Amir's testing would support that. Perhaps further development of newer topologies like the THX and D style amps will change that but for now I prefer heavy quality A/B style amps. I use the AVM 60, the MCA 525 for surrounds and a Mac amp for the two mains. It appears that dynamic range or "headroom" in amps is very important and yet difficult to measure. We focus on noise and distortion but as stated most good amps have low enough distortion to be inaudible. Where they differ is in dynamic range, and that takes plenty of power and good heat sinks which are expensive.

Most reputable manufacturers do specify their dynamic output specs, not only for their power amps but also receivers. AH, ASR, Stereophle typically do measure and publish their results on dynamic outputs. Heat sinks are important, but many resort to fans that works too, but obviously they need to be quiet enough to be not audible from a few feet others it is a no go, for me anyway.

By the way, dynamic output is not an issue if your amp is rated for much higher than your need. If the peak spl calculator figured that you need 20 W/4ohms, and your amp is rated 80 W/4 ohms, then you wouldn't even need to worry about dynamic output. NAD used to emphasize their dynamic output capability, but if you look at the measurements of the T758 V3 (ref: ASR), it still fall short compared to D&M, Yamaha, Pioneer's in the same and even lower price brackets. The old HK AVRs was a good example, they emphasized high current and ACD capability to the nth degree, but the bottom line is, they were still less powerful in terms of $/average W and $/dynamic watt, or $/ampere (current). Often enough, myths, while sometimes based on facts, did (still do..) get created by manufacturers/users trying to justify their higher selling/purchase price for less performance.

 

[lovinthehd]

yes, i was disappointed to see these results but it only reinforced my belief in separates (like the remarkable AHB-2!). You just can't put 5, 7, 11 high quality amp channels into a box with all the other components, at least IMO and the results from Amir's testing would support that. Perhaps further development of newer topologies like the THX and D style amps will change that but for now I prefer heavy quality A/B style amps. I use the AVM 60, the MCA 525 for surrounds and a Mac amp for the two mains. It appears that dynamic range or "headroom" in amps is very important and yet difficult to measure. We focus on noise and distortion but as stated most good amps have low enough distortion to be inaudible. Where they differ is in dynamic range, and that takes plenty of power and good heat sinks which are expensive.

Key word seems to be "belief"