Will adding an old Mcintosh Power Amp to my Onkyo AVR enhance stereo sound

[William Lemmerhirt]

Curious if you ran Audyssey and mcacc beforehand.

 

[Curtdr]

Curious if you ran Audyssey and mcacc beforehand.

I ran Audessy multiple times, after NOT running it at first, in attempts to get the sr7015 to produce the sound that I, personally, was seeking with the Heresy-4. Don't get me wrong: the sr7015 is high-level Marantz, and smooth, detailed, and refined... just maybe a little "too refined," again seeking the words, held back, recessed maybe, for the impact I was seeking with the H-4. If I was seeking elegance and easy, I wouldn't have bought the H-4 and would have just stuck to my trusty Epi 100 for all my listening and the Marantz would likely be a match in heaven; I was seeking lively punch, something different...

As for the mcacc of the Pioneer Elite, I did not run it, never have, and found that when I simply did a plug and play with the Elite, then tweaking a bit but not much by ear, mainly to get the balance between speakers proper, the Heresy-4 jumped to punchy life. The Elite matched what I was seeking, except for that tiny bit of graininess which I can live with for now because it is not omnipresent, with the "gutsy" clear signature, non-recessed... and it did it without room-correction software.

I'm thinking Onkyo, eventually - no rush, as I stated before, to clean up the minor grain without going laid back, and I haven't heard it in action so that's just a theory... but for now, I'm enjoying the H-4 / Elite pairing.

That's why I agree that the OP's Onkyo is likely just fine as is... more $ and newer doesn't necessarily mean better, doesn't necessarily mean discernible, even. However, a different amp even at the same pricepoint might sound different... then it's personal preferences from there.

 

[PENG]

I cannot agree that amps make no difference, as I've heard them myself.

I used to be a skeptic, but there is a different sound signature between, for example, my Pioneer Elite receiver from 2006 and the Marantz sr7015 receiver that I recently compared back to back. Through my speakers (Klipsch Heresy - IV, in this example), there were differences on several counts, even to my 60 year old ears... It's difficult to describe, definitively, but here's a go: the Marantz was "smoother" to the point of being "soft"... the Pioneer maybe has a bit of grain to some, not all, vocals, but has more "punch"... I also noticed the Pioneer was more clear for dialogue when functioning in surround mode. Now, which one is "BETTER" is a whole other question, and not one that can be definitively answered, but through those speakers, in my room, I preferred the Pioneer for the sound that I was after. They're both good. But, I returned the Marantz, and kept the older Pioneer, for these particular speakers. If I was using other speakers, in another room, then my conclusion may have turned out differently.

That said, I did discern a difference in sound character. Chasing better QUALITY by going up further in price though is generally more difficult... the point of diminishing returns hits hard once you're in about $1500 range, maybe even lower.

Interestingly, I'm thinking that an Onkyo, perhaps the new rz50, might "split the difference" between the Marantz and Pioneer, and clean up that ever-so-slight-but-hearable graininess without softening things up too much...

There are tweaks that can be made. But spending $8000 on a McIntosh receiver? I'm sure it'd be super nice, and beautiful to look at and listen too... HOWEVER: Probably be better off going w the Onkyo and putting the $6500 difference into mutual funds, instead, and build financial security, which makes EVERYTHING seem better, lol...

I have discerned differences before, too, with other amps and speakers: my vintage Harmon Kardan certainly sounded different than my vintage Marantz, (which both sounded better, definitely better, than my cheap old Goodwill Sony...) but I sold them both once I heard the little new Marantz nr1200 through the same speakers (Epi 100s, in this case)... and the new nr1200 was less expensive than the vintages, as well... Again, though, that's w my speakers, my ears, my room.

Haha I would say at least you were right once (when you were a skeptic..), there can be many reasons that could explain why you perceived different "sound signatures" of the devices mentioned, but the probability that you would perceive the same in a truly apple to apple AB comparison listening tests should be extremely low as long as you don't know which one you are listening to and both used well below their output limits. That's based on specs and bench tests of similar products over the years and many studies done, and obviously assuming the compared devices are in perfect condition.

In another thread, I just quoted the following, by a well know amp designer/engineer, Mr. Peter Walker of Quad. What Mr. Walker said would make sense because if an amp is designed for its own sound signature, then logically, one would have to listen to many amps under identical condition in order to find out which one has the "sound signature one prefers, or one would have just keep doing in home trial and bet on their luck that they would find their preferred SS without having to try too many. So a smart amp designer would do good by aiming for accuracy, neutrality, transparency, over a certain SS, but that's just my opinion.

Anyway, here's the quote:

..............But we aren't sitting down listening to Beethoven's
Fifth and saying, "That amplifier sounds better, let's change a resistor or two. Oh
yes, that's now better still." We never sit down and listen to a music record
through an amplifier in the design stage..................

Another quote, from Anthem's FAQ:

Do the amps have a warm sound or a bright sound?

None of our components are designed with a "sonic flavor" other than playing exactly what's in a recording. Unfortunately with pop CD mastering, pushing levels way into overload regardless of how much distortion this adds is all too common. Recordings of acoustic instruments with minimal or no processing during mastering sound more natural, therefore they are a much better test of how natural-sounding the playback equipment is.
Are they better suited for music or for movies?
Sound reproduction equipment doesn't know the difference between a music signal and a movie signal, or for that matter the musical score within a movie soundtrack. Accurate for one means accurate for the other.

It is interesting that people who actually design/built amps could, I guess, by chance created such a controversy that people would believe even two amps with very similar specs, measurements that supposedly have numbers that indicate both should meet the criteria of "below the threshold of humans.." have different sound signature, yet it is most likely such amps creators aimed for the best accuracy/transparency possible given their budget. No wonder you used to be a skeptic yourself..

I am not trying to start a debate here, because there is no point and no need, simply suggesting that there could have been other reasons than just attributing the perceived difference to some sort of designed SS of your two AVRs mentioned. For anyone interested in a good debate, there is a good 72 pages long thread for it.

Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers? | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

 

[Curtdr]

Yeah, I was right just once, and I did not perceive any differences, not really. Subconsciously I was "routing" for the Pioneer. There are no differences in the sound of amps. There are no such things as sound signatures. All amps are equally smooth and behave exactly similarly no matter what speakers they're paired with.

The graininess I perceive in the vocals through the Pioneer, but not through the Marantz, simply doesn't exist, given that the amps sound exactly the same through all speakers. The recessed vocals in the dialogue of movies, when using the Marantz, is a figment of my imagination, and the more forward vocals when using the Pioneer is also imaginary, since of course the Marantz sounds the same as the Pioneer in reality.

And the Marantz sound signature, purposely "tuned," is not real. The manufacturer itself, all the critics, and all the users who prefer, or not, the result of such tuning are delusional and they're not really hearing reality. And an $8000 McIntosh sounds exactly the same as a $180 Sony. And a 1976 Marantz sounds exactly like a 1976 Pioneer and exactly like a 1986 Onkyo and a 2006 Pioneer and a 2020 Marantz. They all sound the same. There are no perceivable differences, not really.

Believe whatever you want.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, I was right just once, and I did not perceive any differences, not really. Subconsciously I was "routing" for the Pioneer. There are no differences in the sound of amps. There are no such things as sound signatures. All amps are equally smooth and behave exactly similarly no matter what speakers they're paired with.

The graininess I perceive in the vocals through the Pioneer, but not through the Marantz, simply doesn't exist, given that the amps sound exactly the same through all speakers. The recessed vocals in the dialogue of movies, when using the Marantz, is a figment of my imagination, and the more forward vocals when using the Pioneer is also imaginary, since of course the Marantz sounds the same as the Pioneer in reality.

And the Marantz sound signature, purposely "tuned," is not real. The manufacturer itself, all the critics, and all the users who prefer, or not, the result of such tuning are delusional and they're not really hearing reality. And an $8000 McIntosh sounds exactly the same as a $180 Sony. And a 1976 Marantz sounds exactly like a 1976 Pioneer and exactly like a 1986 Onkyo and a 2006 Pioneer and a 2020 Marantz. They all sound the same. There are no perceivable differences, not really.

Believe whatever you want.

I don't know what you're hearing nor particularly care, if you believe it you believe it. You probably did poor comparisons fraught with problems, many do. Sighted, non-level matched, at different times and systems, etc. Sure there can be "differences" but personally with a variety of receivers/pre-amp/amp combos I have and have used, the differences are extremely minor and not along the lines you describe. YMMV....

 

[Curtdr]

So, you have heard differences, "minor" or not. The differences you have heard between your variety of amps and combos are not the same as the differences I hear amongst the variety of amps that I have had at my recent leisure, and that's fine too. We agree on that.

Clearly you do care somewhat, since you taken the time to scoff at my observations, in a dismissive manner.

My intent has not been to persuade anybody that this or that amp is technically superior to another, or to get this or that amp, or not, let alone drop the cash on a McIntosh. The notion, however, that caught my attention in this thread was that old idea that "amps all sound the same" theme. They do not. Even Julian Hirsch confirmed this, years ago, though he too had been skeptical going into his own study and had no "skin in the game" as I likewise have no skin in the game.

This debate reminds me of a recent one I had about speakers... where some were arguing that linear technical specifications were really all that mattered, and that any speaker resonance was "bad." That, too, I find a notion that is clearly false, when it comes to finding speakers one enjoys.

Thank you for the referral to the "75 page thread" or whatever, but understand also that I've been a stereo enthusiast for 45 years, and used to read double that per month. I also have graduate level training and experience in double-blind testing in both psychological and medical studies. At this point, what interests me is not those debates anymore EXCEPT when I feel that misinformation is being spread, and the idea that all amps sound the same is misinformation. Which one prefers is an entirely other, subjective question. Are there "huge" differences? Well, huge is a relative term, is it not?

Personally, I've been quite satisfied with budget gear, generally, having run with a 20wpc Phillips receiver for a decade with good results. Lately, I have more money, so I'm free to explore more expensive options, but I'm fully cognizant that more expensive does not necessarily mean BETTER, but in some cases it might, at least better to my ears. In my recent experience, I found that I preferred the LESS expensive receiver, and that is what I reported here.

Beyond that, I just want my system to sound its best to my ears, in my home, given the budget that I have to work with... and, I am of the hope that other audiophiles enjoy their own gear. (technophiles, I care less about, but that's only because in the end I care about enjoying the sound, not the technical measurements; that said, if it weren't for techno-interested folks, we wouldn't have all the many fine options that we do these days, so I do thank them for that).

 

[lovinthehd]

So, you have heard differences, "minor" or not. The differences you have heard between your variety of amps and combos are not the same as the differences I hear amongst the variety of amps that I have had at my recent leisure, and that's fine too. We agree on that.

Clearly you do care somewhat, since you taken the time to scoff at my observations, in a dismissive manner.

My intent has not been to persuade anybody that this or that amp is technically superior to another, or to get this or that amp, or not, let alone drop the cash on a McIntosh. The notion, however, that caught my attention in this thread was that old idea that "amps all sound the same" theme. They do not. Even Julian Hirsch confirmed this, years ago, though he too had been skeptical going into his own study and had no "skin in the game" as I likewise have no skin in the game.

This debate reminds me of a recent one I had about speakers... where some were arguing that linear technical specifications were really all that mattered, and that any speaker resonance was "bad." That, too, I find a notion that is clearly false, when it comes to finding speakers one enjoys.

Thank you for the referral to the "75 page thread" or whatever, but understand also that I've been a stereo enthusiast for 45 years, and used to read double that per month. I also have graduate level training and experience in double-blind testing in both psychological and medical studies. At this point, what interests me is not those debates anymore EXCEPT when I feel that misinformation is being spread, and the idea that all amps sound the same is misinformation. Which one prefers is an entirely other, subjective question. Are there "huge" differences? Well, huge is a relative term, is it not?

Personally, I've been quite satisfied with budget gear, generally, having run with a 20wpc Phillips receiver for a decade with good results. Lately, I have more money, so I'm free to explore more expensive options, but I'm fully cognizant that more expensive does not necessarily mean BETTER, but in some cases it might, at least better to my ears. In my recent experience, I found that I preferred the LESS expensive receiver, and that is what I reported here.

Beyond that, I just want my system to sound its best to my ears, in my home, given the budget that I have to work with... and, I am of the hope that other audiophiles enjoy their own gear. (technophiles, I care less about, but that's only because in the end I care about enjoying the sound, not the technical measurements; that said, if it weren't for techno-interested folks, we wouldn't have all the many fine options that we do these days, so I do thank them for that).

I sometimes hear my systems differently just because of how much sleep I've had or my mood in general. Love to hear about your blind testing of your audio gear, tho

 

[Curtdr]

I sometimes hear my systems differently just because of how much sleep I've had or my mood in general. Love to hear about your blind testing of your audio gear, tho

I didn't claim that I blind tested my equipment. Is that what you sit around doing? Really? In your controlled environment? Or do you listen to stuff, decide what you like, and go with it?

I have no interest in doing so, because that's not how I listen to music. I did listen, however, to a variety of receivers of different vintages and brands and "pricepoints" in my home recently, under a variety of circumstances, with a variety of music. It was fun, and it challenged my own biases. Then, based on the differences I perceived, I selected the ones that I liked best, and returned or sold the rest. I actually saved some money by doing so, as a bonus: returning that expensive new Marantz and selling off the '70s vintage gear. That's it.

My intent here has been to report my own experiences, but also to stop the spread of misinformation. It is not the case that all amps sound the same.

And, you yourself did admit that you have perceived differences in various amplifiers, in addition to mood-based differences. Unless you didn't really mean what you said... or unless you are now claiming that those perceptions were all about your "mood" or sleep schedule.

Perhaps all of us who can and do hear differences in amplifiers, all the critics, all the users, everybody who has ever perceived differences... well, we're all just WRONG and delusional.

You can make that claim if you'd like; some have. But then, everybody who would make that claim would also just buy the least expensive receiver possible, otherwise be a hypocrite. And that's fine too.

Furthermore, they'd be done with all further testing, blind or otherwise, if they really believed it.

And, if my experiences don't confirm your bias, well, so be it.

And, before I leave off: hey, I'd love to have a McIntosh... If I did have about $9,000 loose change that I didn't care about putting into mutual funds instead, I'd buy that Mac 7200 receiver, be done, and enjoy it very much for the rest of my life. Well past the point of diminishing returns, sonically, I suppose. Grin. Smile. Silly me, eh?

But, that's not my priority at this time, and my 2006 Pioneer Elite w my Heresy-4, plus my 2020 Marantz nr1200 with my Epi... I'm good, thanks.

Enjoy your gear. I'll enjoy mine. Thanks for the interesting engagement.

 

[lovinthehd]

I didn't claim that I blind tested my equipment. Is that what you sit around doing? Really? In your controlled environment? Or do you listen to stuff, decide what you like, and go with it?

I have no interest in doing so, because that's not how I listen to music. I did listen, however, to a variety of receivers of different vintages and brands and "pricepoints" in my home recently, under a variety of circumstances, with a variety of music. It was fun, and it challenged my own biases. Then, based on the differences I perceived, I selected the ones that I liked best, and returned or sold the rest. I actually saved some money by doing so, as a bonus: returning that expensive new Marantz and selling off the '70s vintage gear. That's it.

My intent here has been to report my own experiences, but also to stop the spread of misinformation. It is not the case that all amps sound the same.

And, you yourself did admit that you have perceived differences in various amplifiers, in addition to mood-based differences. Unless you didn't really mean what you said... or unless you are now claiming that those perceptions were all about your "mood" or sleep schedule.

Perhaps all of us who can and do hear differences in amplifiers, all the critics, all the users, everybody who has ever perceived differences... well, we're all just WRONG and delusional.

You can make that claim if you'd like; some have. But then, everybody who would make that claim would also just buy the least expensive receiver possible, otherwise be a hypocrite. And that's fine too.

Furthermore, they'd be done with all further testing, blind or otherwise, if they really believed it.

And, if my experiences don't confirm your bias, well, so be it.

And, before I leave off: hey, I'd love to have a McIntosh... If I did have about $9,000 loose change that I didn't care about putting into mutual funds instead, I'd buy that Mac 7200 receiver, be done, and enjoy it very much for the rest of my life. Well past the point of diminishing returns, sonically, I suppose. Grin. Smile. Silly me, eh?

But, that's not my priority at this time, and my 2006 Pioneer Elite w my Heresy-4, plus my 2020 Marantz nr1200 with my Epi... I'm good, thanks.

Enjoy your gear. I'll enjoy mine. Thanks for the interesting engagement.

So you used these various amps all in the same room with same speakers but never side by side, just different times? What's your testing methodology, just what your first impression is after plugging in a different amp and setting it up?

 

[Curtdr]

So you used these various amps all in the same room with same speakers but never side by side, just different times? What's your testing methodology, just what your first impression is after plugging in a different amp and setting it up?

My methodology: informal.

I do not live in an "acoustically perfect" environment; I live in a house. I do not have a hobby of running scientifically proper blind tests of ... well, anything... I'm only going by what I perceived, with my gear, in my house, in my imperfect environment. I walk around. I live my life. I listen to music at various times throughout the day, a wide variety of music, from classical to country. Movies are a night-time thing. Occassionally, I have the luxury of kicking back in my recliner in the "sweetspot" and get to listen more "critically" if I choose.

Over several weeks. Swapping in and out. One right next to each other. With and without room correction software (for the Marantz. I didn't use any software with the Pioneer.) Same Heresy-4 speakers, same speaker cables, cd players, and everything else, with the Pioneer Elite and the Marantz sr7015. Going in, I actually wanted and expected that I'd like the Marantz sr7015 better, but I didn't. My expectations were overturned. So, I returned the brand-new Marantz. I'm sure some people would have come to a different conclusion. But, I preferred the sound I get from the Pioneer.

Why? I don't know and I don't care...! "Maybe the Pioneer is distorting in some way that you like..." Maybe so, I didn't break out the meters, you know? What I care about is to get the sound that I like best in the budget I have, given that the receiver has the practical necessities... although the Marantz was more up to date in that regard, w built in streaming and all that new processing potential, but that didn't change the fact that I preferred the Pioneer's sound.

That was as scientific as I needed or wanted to get. It was clear to me there was a different sonic character between the two amps; they did not sound the same, even when both were straight up stock w no correction applied, and both with music and with surround sound movie watching.

For the Marantz nr1200, it was over the course of several months: it compared with vintage gear. Same speakers: epi 100s and epi 50s. Pioneer sx-450, Harman Kardon 430, and Marantz 2238, all professionally refurbished. Swapping around, sometimes one right after another, head-to-head, sometimes leaving one in for days, and then putting in another one. I actually wanted the 2238 to win, as it is super-cool retro eye candy, and it sounds really nice. As I narrowed things down, however, the first to get sold was the sx-450, then the Marantz 2238, then the HK 430, leaving me with what, to me, in my room, with my speakers, was the winner: nr1200.

Those are my experiences and conclusions based on my non-laboratory, real-world informal listening tests over the course of weeks and months. If anybody thinks I wasn't actually hearing any "real" differences and it was all in my head, well... OK. We can dig into the weeds of individual abilities and differences and preferences and the whole question of what's real and what's not, perception vs. reality, but I'm not teaching nor taking a philosophy class at the moment. Think on the absurdity, though, of the following statement: "You didn't hear what you heard." I am reporting my perceptual experiences with various amps in my little world, and my conclusions were surprising even to myself.

And, it's like this pertinent quote from C-Net, in the article Do All Amplifiers Sound Exactly The Same?:
"The $25 Lepai LP2020+ integrated stereo amplifier plays exactly the same notes as a $42,000 D'Agostino Momentum amplifier. Exactly. The rhythms, melodies, and harmonies are all the same. Granted, the Momentum is considerably more powerful, so it can play louder, the bass will be more potent, the treble is clearer, and the stereo sound stage takes on an almost three-dimensional quality, but the notes, they're no different.

For me, the real difference between the two amps is how they translate music into sound. The emotional connection to the music is stronger through the D'Agostino Momentum; it's a giant step closer to hearing all of the energy/passion the musicians were putting into the music when they recorded it.

The "notes" may be the same, but flavors are a very different story. With amps, the sound, as opposed to notes, is the first thing to go. A great amp strips away the artifice of sound reproduction and lets more of the music shine through.

Vacuum tube amplifiers measure and sound different, some say better, some say worse than solid-state amps, but again they both play the same notes. There are those folks who believe the only scientific way to settle this debate is to "blind test" listeners to "see" if they can hear the difference. That's cool, if that's what you want to do. Prove that all amps sound the same, and then buy the Lepai LP2020A+ and live happily ever after. Me, I'll stick with my Pass Labs XA100.5 amps, and live happily ever after."

 

[lovinthehd]

My methodology: informal.

I do not live in an "acoustically perfect" environment; I live in a house. I do not have a hobby of running scientifically proper blind tests of ... well, anything... I'm only going by what I perceived, with my gear, in my house, in my imperfect environment. I walk around. I live my life. I listen to music at various times throughout the day, a wide variety of music, from classical to country. Movies are a night-time thing. Occassionally, I have the luxury of kicking back in my recliner in the "sweetspot" and get to listen more "critically" if I choose.

Over several weeks. Swapping in and out. One right next to each other. With and without room correction software (for the Marantz. I didn't use any software with the Pioneer.) Same Heresy-4 speakers, same speaker cables, cd players, and everything else, with the Pioneer Elite and the Marantz sr7015. Going in, I actually wanted and expected that I'd like the Marantz sr7015 better, but I didn't. My expectations were overturned. So, I returned the brand-new Marantz. I'm sure some people would have come to a different conclusion. But, I preferred the sound I get from the Pioneer.

Why? I don't know and I don't care...! "Maybe the Pioneer is distorting in some way that you like..." Maybe so, I didn't break out the meters, you know? What I care about is to get the sound that I like best in the budget I have, given that the receiver has the practical necessities... although the Marantz was more up to date in that regard, w built in streaming and all that new processing potential, but that didn't change the fact that I preferred the Pioneer's sound.

That was as scientific as I needed or wanted to get. It was clear to me there was a different sonic character between the two amps; they did not sound the same, even when both were straight up stock w no correction applied, and both with music and with surround sound movie watching.

For the Marantz nr1200, it was over the course of several months: it compared with vintage gear. Same speakers: epi 100s and epi 50s. Pioneer sx-450, Harman Kardon 430, and Marantz 2238, all professionally refurbished. Swapping around, sometimes one right after another, head-to-head, sometimes leaving one in for days, and then putting in another one. I actually wanted the 2238 to win, as it is super-cool retro eye candy, and it sounds really nice. As I narrowed things down, however, the first to get sold was the sx-450, then the Marantz 2238, then the HK 430, leaving me with what, to me, in my room, with my speakers, was the winner: nr1200.

Those are my experiences and conclusions based on my non-laboratory, real-world informal listening tests over the course of weeks and months. If anybody thinks I wasn't actually hearing any "real" differences and it was all in my head, well... OK. We can dig into the weeds of individual abilities and differences and preferences and the whole question of what's real and what's not, perception vs. reality, but I'm not teaching nor taking a philosophy class at the moment. Think on the absurdity, though, of the following statement: "You didn't hear what you heard." I am reporting my perceptual experiences with various amps in my little world, and my conclusions were surprising even to myself.

And, it's like this pertinent quote from C-Net, in the article Do All Amplifiers Sound Exactly The Same?:
"The $25 Lepai LP2020+ integrated stereo amplifier plays exactly the same notes as a $42,000 D'Agostino Momentum amplifier. Exactly. The rhythms, melodies, and harmonies are all the same. Granted, the Momentum is considerably more powerful, so it can play louder, the bass will be more potent, the treble is clearer, and the stereo sound stage takes on an almost three-dimensional quality, but the notes, they're no different.

For me, the real difference between the two amps is how they translate music into sound. The emotional connection to the music is stronger through the D'Agostino Momentum; it's a giant step closer to hearing all of the energy/passion the musicians were putting into the music when they recorded it.

The "notes" may be the same, but flavors are a very different story. With amps, the sound, as opposed to notes, is the first thing to go. A great amp strips away the artifice of sound reproduction and lets more of the music shine through.

Vacuum tube amplifiers measure and sound different, some say better, some say worse than solid-state amps, but again they both play the same notes. There are those folks who believe the only scientific way to settle this debate is to "blind test" listeners to "see" if they can hear the difference. That's cool, if that's what you want to do. Prove that all amps sound the same, and then buy the Lepai LP2020A+ and live happily ever after. Me, I'll stick with my Pass Labs XA100.5 amps, and live happily ever after."

Thought this was mostly about ss amps, not tubes, but even tubes can be relatively transparent. The emotional attachment thing is fascinating, tho. Do you use special wires, too?

 

[Curtdr]

Thought this was mostly about ss amps, not tubes, but even tubes can be relatively transparent. The emotional attachment thing is fascinating, tho. Do you use special wires, too?

Huh? "special wires"...? "emotional attachment thing"...? Sure, I'm emotionally attached to music.

How old are you...? I'd be curious, but I won't wait for your response, because now you're coming off as either a drunk or as a not very mature person, frankly. I tried to discuss matters in a straight-forward and serious manner, based on my own experiences, hopefully for an intelligent younger generation who is struggling in the weird world of audiophilia. The attitudinal example you are setting now is the reason why this world is shunned by many, including myself most of the time.

OK, well, clearly I'm not discussing with somebody worth discussing with, at this point. At this point, our roads diverge.

For the rest of you: do what you think is right, for you, your ears, your gear, your money, your musical time.

You enjoy your gear, and your own beliefs. I'll enjoy mine.

 

[lovinthehd]

Huh? "special wires"...? "emotional attachment thing"...? Sure, I'm emotionally attached to music.

How old are you...? I'd be curious, but I won't wait for your response, because now you're coming off as either a drunk or as a not very mature person, frankly. I tried to discuss matters in a straight-forward and serious manner, based on my own experiences, hopefully for an intelligent younger generation who is struggling in the weird world of audiophilia. The attitudinal example you are setting now is the reason why this world is shunned by many, including myself most of the time.

OK, well, clearly I'm not discussing with somebody worth discussing with, at this point. At this point, our roads diverge.

For the rest of you: do what you think is right, for you, your ears, your gear, your money, your musical time.

You enjoy your gear, and your own beliefs. I'll enjoy mine.

Well good for you if you haven't got emotional attachments to wires, as many seem to these days. You get too excited about your opinion/experience with amps perhaps. I have different experiences and general conclusions. Never said all amps are the same, but for my purposes a good ss amp is not different from another as long as it is accurate/transparent and powerful enough for the impedance load and levels I want. I have a variety of them and seem to be older than you, and probably more experienced. You seem excitable and irrational to me. Maybe you're drunk. Don't know, don't care. Not one mention of particular speakers and only amps is kinda weird even for an ampliphile like yourself, tho....have fun.

 

[PENG]

My intent here has been to report my own experiences, but also to stop the spread of misinformation. It is not the case that all amps sound the same.

I should have thanked you for sharing your own experience on this first, hope it is not too late. "all amps sound the same" would indeed be misinformation so I agree with you 100% on that. As far as I can remember, on this site very few people (if any at all) have said or claimed that "all amps sound the same" though, and I have been a member for many years, more than 10 for sure but I could have missed many posts. If you came across one, I would appreciate who said such a thing, not that I care but you got me curious about this, that's all.

Perhaps all of us who can and do hear differences in amplifiers, all the critics, all the users, everybody who has ever perceived differences... well, we're all just WRONG and delusional

I would say that depends, as I mentioned earlier, there could be many reasons why you heard what you heard, while I think delusional could be a reason too but obviously not in your case as you even said in the first place that you were a skeptic.

 

[PENG]

Just considering logic wise, if its the case why arent they being called out? I am sure there would be enough consumers who actually do not derive any benefits and do not fall into expectation bias or placebo effect; call a spade a spade and challenge these reviewers. In fact the far opposite seems to be happening. The reviewers are growing. The products are expanding. And consumers are buying more. For example, I checked out reviews for the MC 7100 and so many of them who have added it to their AVRs or preamps have been sharing how audible the diiference was; how the sound signature was enhanced; how sweet their music has become. No one was.challenged that what they may have interpreted may actually be a placebo effect or expectation bias. Could all of them be wrong? Logically it doesnt make sense. But i get the argument. Just curious.

Not sure about your point, are you suggesting that logically speaking even amps with something like for following specs would have their own sound signature that most hifi enthusiast could identify them when bias (Placebo, expectation..etc.), are removed?

Neither of the following amp manufacturers have claimed to have their own unique sound signature.

Amplifier A:

THD: 0.005% maximum 250 mW to rated power output
FR: +0, -0.25 dB 20 to 20,000 Hz
A-weighted SNR: 95 dB

IMD: 0.005% maximum if instantaneious peak power output does not exceed twice the output power rating

WB DF: 8 ohms, 200, 4 ohms, 100
Input impedance 20,000 ohms

Amplifier B:

THD at 100 W: 0.001% at 1 kHz, 0.015% at 20 kHz
IMD at 100 W: ITU-R(19 kHz+20 kHz): 0.0005%, SMPTE (60Hz + 7 kHz): 0.002%

FR: open cct., 8 ohm, 4 ohm, +/- 0.1 dB, 2 ohm, +/- 0.2%
SNR IEC-A, ref. 225 W: 120 dB
slew rate: 30 V/us
DF: 300 from 20 Hz to 1 kHz
Input impedance: XLR 15 kohm

 

[ski2xblack]

Point of order.

Statements like "amps don't matter" and "all amps sound the same" commit the same false generalization.

Fact: subconscious bias is a powerful influence on perception, which itself is highly mutable.

Fact: amps with 1) low distortion, 2) low output impedance, 3) linear response in the audio frequencies, and 4) operated below clipping tend to be indistinguishable in bias controlled listening tests, over and over again.

Fact: audible differences really do happen, but there is always a reductive explanation for such differences *if they do in fact exist*, specifically violations of the conditions mentioned previously. Mutability of perception = many perceived differences do not in fact exist, and would vanish under bias controlled circumstances.

Fact, IMO: AB/X testing is boring af, but it has embarassing lessons to teach about those who are convinced of their golden-eared superhuman hearing prowess.