Will adding an old Mcintosh Power Amp to my Onkyo AVR enhance stereo sound

[Ramesh47]

Hi All
Hoping to get some advice on my stereo dilemma

I wish to upgrade my stereo listening music experience.

I currently have a 6000f RP klipsch speakers ( highly sensitive speakers) an Onkyo RZ830 AVR (120 watt per channel 2 channel driven) and a marantz UD 7007 cd player.

I am thinking of getting an older version of used Mcintosh MC 7100 (100 watt per channel) stereo power amp to be connected to my Onkyo receiver to power my front 2 speakers for stereo listening. The Onkyo hence becomes the preamp.

For movies, mcintosh will likewise power amp my front speakers while Onkyo drives my other 5 speakers.
Appreciate it if you could let me know if getting the mcintosh power amp will help significantly in my stereo listening though there is a slight difference in power between the mcintosh and onkyo.
Appreciate your advise pl.
Tks a lot.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Highly unlikely that there will be an audible improvement, if both units are operating properly.

 

[ryanosaur]

Though some[many] believe that Amps will improve your Sound Quality, I think many here see that SQ falls under the domain of the speaker. If you want to improve something, that is where to upgrade.
Not picking on the Big K, but there are many speakers out there better than those. Putting them on an amp like that, in a Double Blind Listening Test, I don’t think you would be able to hear a difference, much as Irv said above, and assuming your Onkyo is operating properly.
I recommend higher quality speakers for your front 3, at least.

 

[Ramesh47]

Tks for sharing. I was in a dilemma. My onkyo amp is a decent powerful unit thats why I was wondering if there would be an audible difference though I have heard lots about the mcintosh power amps. Both my onkyo and klipsch are rather new by the way. So dont plan to change it anytime soon.

I have put up some acoustic panels as well.

Will an integrated amp make a significant difference something like the Rotel RA 1572 witha HT bypass so I still bypass my Onkyo for stereo listening. Or there is likely to be not much difference as well.

Appreciate your thoughts

 

[ryanosaur]

My position stands... throwing electronics at your concern isn’t going to address the desire for better SQ.
The retail therapy may help... but that is really just the placebo effect taking hold of your perception.

I already mentioned the speakers, but the other half of that equation is your room. The individual drivers (transducers, which convert electrical energy to sound energy) in your speakers, how the box is designed, how the Crossover is designed, and how that system interacts with the room they are in: that is SQ.
You mentioned acoustical treatments. Did you take room measurements, before and after installing your panels (I presume)? If not... then you are simply throwing a watermelon at a lock and hoping the door opens.
Acoustics is complicated, and unless you understand what you are doing, you could just as easily aggravate the situation further.

You are in the right place to ask questions, though!

 

[Ramesh47]

Well glad that I am in the right place.

I dont have acute knowledge of acoustics so I left that bit with a professional who took the necessary measurements and installed panels at the main reflection point directly opposite my equipment. I have about 3 large acoustic panels placed on my wall.

I had my carpert on the floor. And recently I realise the sound from speakers appear more lively without the carpet. Guess better refelction since my listening area which is a small livjng room is kinda quietened with the panels.

My music plays quite well now actually. But I guess I am always in search of something better and wish I could tame these desires. My wife would be very happy.

So with the desires, I went around hunting for power amps and integrated amps. And also burying myself in research. Some say these additions make a difference, others are resolute that such additions dont make much of a difference at all. Thought this is the right forum to bounce things off. And am getting good feedback. Tks. Electronics are expensive...

 

[everettT]

Well glad that I am in the right place.

I dont have acute knowledge of acoustics so I left that bit with a professional who took the necessary measurements and installed panels at the main reflection point directly opposite my equipment. I have about 3 large acoustic panels placed on my wall.

I had my carpert on the floor. And recently I realise the sound from speakers appear more lively without the carpet. Guess better refelction since my listening area which is a small livjng room is kinda quietened with the panels.

My music plays quite well now actually. But I guess I am always in search of something better and wish I could tame these desires. My wife would be very happy.

So with the desires, I went around hunting for power amps and integrated amps. And also burying myself in research. Some say these additions make a difference, others are resolute that such additions dont make much of a difference at all. Thought this is the right forum to bounce things off. And am getting good feedback. Tks. Electronics are expensive...

Speakers, subs, and better source material, followed by low frequency setup. That's what gets you better sound.

 

[PENG]

Tks for sharing. I was in a dilemma. My onkyo amp is a decent powerful unit thats why I was wondering if there would be an audible difference though I have heard lots about the mcintosh power amps. Both my onkyo and klipsch are rather new by the way. So dont plan to change it anytime soon.

I have put up some acoustic panels as well.

Will an integrated amp make a significant difference something like the Rotel RA 1572 witha HT bypass so I still bypass my Onkyo for stereo listening. Or there is likely to be not much difference as well.

Appreciate your thoughts

You can ask the same question about any other amps, reality is, you can only see, but not hear a difference. If you want better sound quality, you should pay attention to your source. Recording quality is most important, followed by speakers and room acoustics, given that you already have the RZ830 that is capable of amplifying the signal with transparency that far exceed humans ability to discern the minute difference between the input and output signals. My comments are based on the objective side of the equation, i.e. specs, measurements etc. If you were to go with people's opinions based on their own subjective experience, then all bets are off.

For examples, some people claimed they had heard a number of amps and found they all had their own sound signature. If that's a fact, then I don't know the point of even asking the kind of questions you are asking..

 

[lovinthehd]

Agree with the others. The urge to upgrade is not unusual but as was said, acoustics and speakers...electronics play a relatively small role. No sub?

 

[Ramesh47]

I have two 10 inched Klipsch subs. But i toggle largely towards pure direct mode as compared to stereo mode for music. For some songs the bass maybe a tad too heavy. Well guess from the resounding replies. Adding any sort of amps to my OnkyoRZ 830 would not make a signifcant audible difference. Appreciate your candid views. Saves some $$$. Not sure why some do think power amps to their AVRs make a signifcant difference sharing their experiences in forums; when it appears that isnt the case.

 

[PENG]

I have two 10 inched Klipsch subs. But i toggle largely towards pure direct mode as compared to stereo mode for music. For some songs the bass maybe a tad too heavy. Well guess from the resounding replies. Adding any sort of amps to my OnkyoRZ 830 would not make a signifcant audible difference. Appreciate your candid views. Saves some $$$. Not sure why some do think power amps to their AVRs make a signifcant difference sharing their experiences in forums; when it appears that isnt the case.

Great question! There must be many reasons, but I believe in most (not all..)cases, the main reasons may include: Placebo, Expectation bias, based on: if they cost so much more, they must be.... Also, hearsay, groupthink, etc. play a large part in spreading such claims.

If it was easy for people to set up proper AB comparison sessions, even just single blinded comparison tests, people wouldn't be asking such questions all the time.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Great question! There must be many reasons, but I believe in most (not all..)cases, the main reasons may include: Placebo, Expectation bias, based on: if they cost so much more, they must be.... Also, hearsay, groupthink, etc. play a large part in spreading such claims.

If it was easy for people to set up proper AB comparison sessions, even just single blinded comparison tests, people wouldn't be asking such questions all the time.

Agreed. You know, birds of a feather and all that...
The group think thing really applies. Most of the forums like klipsch and emolounge carry on about cables and amps and all the stuff they “hear” when adding all these things. Things like cable elevators? Gimme a break. They should save their money from buying crazy audiophile nonsense and just get some more lsd...

 

[bombadil]

I have two 10 inched Klipsch subs. But i toggle largely towards pure direct mode as compared to stereo mode for music. For some songs the bass maybe a tad too heavy. Well guess from the resounding replies. Adding any sort of amps to my OnkyoRZ 830 would not make a signifcant audible difference. Appreciate your candid views. Saves some $$$. Not sure why some do think power amps to their AVRs make a signifcant difference sharing their experiences in forums; when it appears that isnt the case.

Believe me, I've been where you are. Amplifiers can sound different and if you haven't already see Gene's discussion of amps (expensive vs cheap) for details. However, I agree fully with others that the effect in your system, if any, would be very subtle. Speakers are the obvious large factor and for me, going with Anthem electronics and their excellent room correction system has done wonders for the sound in my rooms. If your subs are not integrating as well as you'd like a good room correction system can help a great deal. Arcam also has new receivers/prepros that include Dirac room correction. So my advice for what it's worth is to save up for better speakers and when it comes time to replace your AVR go with Anthem or Arcam. Other room correction software (Odyssey, YPAO) has not proven as good, based on reviews that I have read.

 

[Truthslayer]

This is a question that has probably been asked for over 50 yrs a thousand times over and over again. And many people don't even want to get involved in the discussion, which only seems to eventually lead to arguements.

It simply boils down to the quality of components used in the amplifier stage. Better quality, should yield better sound. But that is not always the case. Some will hear a difference and some will not. Whether some claiming it's all a placebo effect or not. Unless your amp is constantly hooked up to measurable test equipment, how can you possible tell whether or not it is remaining linear or not.
Gene has done some videos on this topic to try and clear things up. And yes he does state, there is a difference, they do not all sound the same.
It comes down to one main thing. Let your ears be the judge. It's your time and money being spent. Whether a placebo effect or not, go with what pleases you.

 

[PENG]

Anthem electronics and their excellent room correction system has done wonders for the sound in my rooms.

Anthem's ARC is supposedly very good, but their avr's amp performance is just okay, though the difference in performance between theirs and others are not going to be significant, likely not audible anyway.

Here's some ranking based on SINAD at 5 W output. See that the $549 Denon AVR-X3500H and the $128 Sony STRDH190 beat it by a healthy margin Most people only need a few watts average for home use, (much higher for peaks obviously). Again, no one is suggesting those measurable differences are going to be audible to most people as even the MRX520's higher THD+N was only 0.05 to 0.06%.

Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3500H Home Theater Audio Video Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a member. The AVR-X3500H is a 2018 model but it is still available from Amazon for US $599 despite having a retail price of US $999. If it performs, this is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Review and Measurements of Anthem MRX 520 AVR

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Anthem MRX 520 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). The MRX 520 costs US $1,399 so it is a premium product. The sample I have was kindly sent to me by a member. The Anthem MRX 520 leaves a decent impression as far as look and feel: The...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[PENG]

Gene has done some videos on this topic to try and clear things up. And yes he does state, there is a difference, they do not all sound the same.

...which only seems to eventually lead to arguements....

On your first point, to be fair, as I mentioned in the other post, Gene qualified his statements about the differences. In fact he cited quite a few factors that would affect the outcome. I watched that video a few times, it is highly recommended for sure. I am against the blanket statements (not by you..) such as separates sound better than integrated, and integrated should sound better than AVRs etc.

There is no point debating on one's subjective claims/opinions for sure. For one thing, person A cannot prove point B is right or wrong over the internet anyway. From what I can see, arguments usually started after someone made a subjective claim about A>B, or the opposite. That's when they got challenged or countered by people who had different experience and/or opposing views, sometimes measurable performances were cited for support by the objective side.

 

[Truthslayer]

On your first point, to be fair, as I mentioned in the other post, Gene qualified his statements about the differences. In fact he cited quite a few factors that would affect the outcome. I watched that video a few times, it is highly recommended for sure. I am against the blanket statements (not by you..) such as separates sound better than integrated, and integrated should sound better than AVRs etc.

There is no point debating on one's subjective claims/opinions for sure. For one thing, person A cannot prove point B is right or wrong over the internet anyway. From what I can see, arguments usually started after someone made a subjective claim about A>B, or the opposite. That's when they got challenged or countered by people who had different experience and/or opposing views, sometimes measurable performances were cited for support by the objective side.

Peng, I agree with you. Trying to compare or argue one's point of view, opinion or perceivable differences on the internet is almost a pointless exercise. Yes, Gene went into a more detailed explanation of his findings, which is why those questioning this topic should be urged to watch those videos.

Arguing over which is better (separates or not) is also silly. Without comparing two different specific components (AVR-separates) side by side, one is just making a subjective claim.
There are so many blanket claims, one way or the other, (which i think detours many from joining in on the discussion) that leaves many new budding audiophiles in a quandary. This is just one reason while i may give my opinion on some gear, i rarely give a hands down recommendation. I firmly believe the buyer can read all the opinions and review the specs of the equipment in question. I think an individual, should listen and judge for themselves.
In the end, it ultimately doesn't really matter what i or anyone else may think about the equipment in question. We all hear a little bit differently. So when a person gets involved in this hobby and starts laying down chunks of change, they really owe it to themselves to get out and audition as much as possible.

 

[Ramesh47]

Hmmm... rather revealing insights. I guess a large part of the amp industry are thriving on expectation bias and placebo effects for anyone who wishes to upgrade. This also includes all MNC developers reviewers, users and countless critiques including the likes of stereophile Whats Hi Fi and what have you. Quite hard to stomach actually. We are all driven by psychological needs to please ourselves;even if what we desire is less than optimal, we trick our minds to believe what we have bought is far better than what things really are. Amazing theory.

 

[everettT]

Hmmm... rather revealing insights. I guess a large part of the amp industry are thriving on expectation bias and placebo effects for anyone who wishes to upgrade. This also includes all MNC developers reviewers, users and countless critiques including the likes of stereophile Whats Hi Fi and what have you. Quite hard to stomach actually. We are all driven by psychological needs to please ourselves;even if what we desire is less than optimal, we trick our minds to believe what we have bought is far better than what things really are. Amazing theory.

Just remember most major reviewers have a job to do for the company that employees them. Audioholics and Audioscience are two that just publish the information, mostly free from fluff that the others add in for the sake of sales.

 

[Ramesh47]

Just considering logic wise, if its the case why arent they being called out? I am sure there would be enough consumers who actually do not derive any benefits and do not fall into expectation bias or placebo effect; call a spade a spade and challenge these reviewers. In fact the far opposite seems to be happening. The reviewers are growing. The products are expanding. And consumers are buying more. For example, I checked out reviews for the MC 7100 and so many of them who have added it to their AVRs or preamps have been sharing how audible the diiference was; how the sound signature was enhanced; how sweet their music has become. No one was.challenged that what they may have interpreted may actually be a placebo effect or expectation bias. Could all of them be wrong? Logically it doesnt make sense. But i get the argument. Just curious.