Sonos Amp or Integrated Amp for 2 channel Music w/bookshelf speakers

[PENG]

I definitely should have added that qualifier

Here are the specs for the speakers, if they haven't been posted. They appear to be little fussy around 100hz, which probably is fine at normal listening levels, YMMV of course

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: MartinLogan Motion 35XT Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

Sorry, those are for the xt not xti, here is James review

MartinLogan Motion 35XTi Bookshelf Speaker Review

The Motion 35XTi bookshelf speaker has updated cosmetics and employs a 6.5" woofer and AMT tweeter. Read our review to see if MartinLogan keeps their signature sound in a box speaker.

www.audioholics.com

They don't look hard to drive but I would probably XO them at 110 Hz. May be 100 Hz is better, would have to try.

 

[AVUser001]

For someone who don't already own a good one, that is a real drawback for that approach if that's what you are alluding to.. I would say for brand new, you can get buy with the entry level ones, say $300-$399 at Costco if you only play PCM files up to sampling rate of 192 kHz using foobar and others that are freeware.

If you want to be able to play higher sampling rate files and/or DSD files then budget for around $499 minimum. Mac laptops are better because then you don't need to worry about drivers. It seems that all, or almost all external DACs will work with iOS without having to download specific drivers, and iTune is free. Macs are expensive though.

In my particular case, primarily Airplay2 wireless streaming from iMac (primarily and iphone secondary). Playing from Jriver or iTunes.

 

[AVUser001]

If you are keen on headroom/dynamic/low THD+N, all else being equal an avr should win because you end up getting a PS designed/implemented for 7 channels but will be feeding two channels only. You just have to find ways to make one look (or even hide it from sight) a two channel unit. The Marantz slimline look sleeker than Denon's equivalent, though in terms of value you will pay more for the same or less, at least that's the way it is in North America thanks to D&M's marketing and fanboys hearsay.

Thanks,
So a general purpose 7.1(or 5.1) AVR will perform better than a 2 channel integrated amp , for 2 channel music listening? Costwise I understand the volume of AVRs beats out the integrated amps by miles and hence priced much cheaper , in general , so outstanding value.

 

[everettT]

Hi, I posted the specs of 35XTI , in my first post of the thread. Having read through James review, I'm happy I made the right decision with the speakers. They sound fantastic. Only issue is the lack of good sub-out from the Sonos Amps, which prompted my quest for finding a suitable alternative .

However, does it change (esp prominent midrange response) any of the Integrated amp recommendations?

Thanks

Not much out there with bass management other than what was already mentioned. I use an AVR, x3600, in my two channel setup as preamp and have been very pleased. It would certainly work for you in general, minus any size restrictions. The other option I mentioned with one of the minidsp units as a pre, and one of the NCore 2 channel amp for a smaller, and more versatile setup.

 

[AVUser001]

Or if you must stream, then use a good smart phone with the dac+D3020. That is, for desktop applications, but may be fine too for near field serious listening, say <2.5 meters from your speakers.

A good alternative could be the NAD D7050, if it has to be a streamer.

Thanks.., Had looked at the NAD devices mentioned., but they dont seem to support AirPlay2 , which I have standardized for multi-room audio across the house.

The MAC & listening position is about 12 ft from where the Amp (Speakers) will sit. Or we saying, move the amp closer to the Mac and connect through USB and run the speaker cables across , for better sound quality ( than Airplay streaming) ?

 

[PENG]

Thanks,
So a general purpose 7.1(or 5.1) AVR will perform better than a 2 channel integrated amp , for 2 channel music listening? Costwise I understand the volume of AVRs beats out the integrated amps by miles and hence priced much cheaper , in general , so outstanding value.

Hard to say what is better without being more specific, and regardless, not in general but only if you are comparing a one/or two year outdated (but brand new with warranty) AVR model to an integrated amp below the $1,000 with build in dac, such as the A-S801.. It is also a hit and miss, for example the AVR-X4400H, SR7013 have been on sale for deep discounts but most of the time they are not. That leaves the seemingly frequently discounted X3500H and X3600H to compete. The X3600H seems to be the best buy because it has pre-outs and has the option to be detached from the power amp section when used as pre-out. In that sense, it is more upgradable than the A-S801 that does not have pre-outs.

If you are near any Canadian border, drive across and pick one up from Bestbuy for C$799, that is about US$600, a fantastic value.

It has Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ HT that can make a difference for the low freq response in a good way.

 

[AVUser001]

That leaves the seemingly frequently discounted X3500H and X3600H to compete. The X3600H seems to be the best buy because it has pre-outs and has the option to be detached from the power amp section when used as pre-out. In that sense, it is more upgradable than the A-S801 that does not have pre-outs.

If you are near any Canadian border, drive across and pick one up from Bestbuy for C$799, that is about US$600, a fantastic value.

I do have X3400H in my family room, so know what you're talking about. Want to avoid placing a full sized AVR in my office, unless I dont have any other choice, to replace the compact Sonos Amp.

 

[AVUser001]

. So it all depends on one's need for "watts", that's why one should always use a good spl calculator to figure out the need, then take the number, multiply it by 200 to 300 (better obviously) and then forget about the lack of dynamic concerns.

@PENG , Hi . So I am trying to get a ball park estimate on the power requirement for my typical listening , using a calibrated microphone Dayton Audio iMM-6 , that I had and "Decibel X" Sound meter iphone app. Not sure how accurate this is , but I figured I'd get a rough estimate, without buying a dedicated SPL meter.
Played few tracks, looks like the "Average" is between 69dB and 80dB and "Max" between 78dB and 90 dB - all A weighted. There's also "Peak" values at 99dB!

This then, I fed to the online Peak SPL Calculator , for my speaker's rated sensitivity(92dB), distance(11ft), Away from speakers..,looks like 5w gives me 91.5 dB at listening position.

Can you pls clarify your comment "then take the number, multiply it by 200 to 300 (better obviously) " , in this calculation , so I am not misreading your recommendation?

Thanks

 

[AVUser001]

They don't look hard to drive but I would probably XO them at 110 Hz. May be 100 Hz is better, would have to try.

@PENG , Looking at the frequency response of the speakers from Audioholics review, , seems we still good o/p between 80-90 Hz.

Would like to know the reasoning behind your suggestion of XO at 110-100hz .

From SVS merlin, seems the recommended Speaker/Sub XO is at 80hz for AVR and recommended LPF is at 60Hz for Stereo Pre-Amp (for 2 channel applications) with 12 dB/Octave , for ML Motion 35XT( they dont have 35XTI yet in their tool).

 

[everettT]

I tend to go at least an octave above the f3. Depending on your gear and available bass management, it will dictate a lot. Your speakers roll off at 24db per octave so if it were me, I'd start higher than 80.

 

[snakeeyes]

It’s something that’s easy to experiment with. Take a few hours listening to bass heavy music and adjusting it up and down.

 

[PENG]

Played few tracks, looks like the "Average" is between 69dB and 80dB and "Max" between 78dB and 90 dB - all A weighted. There's also "Peak" values at 99dB!

If the average spl is between 69 and 80 dB on moment by moment basis, then the overall average is about 74.5 dB, say 75 dB.

This then, I fed to the online Peak SPL Calculator , for my speaker's rated sensitivity(92dB), distance(11ft), Away from speakers..,looks like 5w gives me 91.5 dB at listening position.

That calculator is based on sensitivity X dB/W/meter, and that is for 8 ohm nominal impedance. So for 4 ohm nominal speakers such as yours, you should subtract 3 dB from the calculated value, so 5 W average will get you 88.5 dB average, and for 75 dB average, you only need about 0.115 W.

Can you pls clarify your comment "then take the number, multiply it by 200 to 300 (better obviously) " , in this calculation , so I am not misreading your recommendation?

My comment about multiply it by 200 to 300 is to allow for peaks in the movie and music contents that may have as much as 20 dB peaks. So in your example, to allow for 20 dB peak on top, ie. 95 dB spl, you would need 100X the power. If you want to have another 3 dB of headroom on reserve, then you need 200X the power.

200X0.115 W = 22.5 W

You only need 22.5 WPC, to target 75 dB average/95 dB peak per speaker, and will still have 3 dB headroom.

75 dB average is just about as loud as I would like for serious music enjoyment, but that's not THX reference level. If you target ref level, that's 85 dB average 105 dB peak, you would need 10X22.5 = 225 W. The Denon AVR-X3400H (rated 105 W average 210 W peak, 8 ohms) can do it without clipping, but you would have only about 1 to 2 dB head room based on measured results I have seen.

I hope that answers your questions.

 

[PENG]

Played few tracks, looks like the "Average" is between 69dB and 80dB and "Max" between 78dB and 90 dB - all A weighted. There's also "Peak" values at 99dB!

For such applications you should use "C" weighting.

 

[PENG]

@PENG , Looking at the frequency response of the speakers from Audioholics review, , seems we still good o/p between 80-90 Hz.
View attachment 32891

Would like to know the reasoning behind your suggestion of XO at 110-100hz .

From SVS merlin, seems the recommended Speaker/Sub XO is at 80hz for AVR and recommended LPF is at 60Hz for Stereo Pre-Amp (for 2 channel applications) with 12 dB/Octave , for ML Motion 35XT( they dont have 35XTI yet in their tool).

Most recommends 80 Hz because that's a safe bet, given that you don't really know the frequency response of your speakers as placed in your room. If you do, and if you see the in room response extended down really low, then there is a good chance that the low frequency output from the main left/right speakers may interact negatively with your subwoofers. Example, you may have some major dips in the 20 to 150 Hz range due to cancellations. Setting XO higher than 80 Hz will help lessening such negative effects. It is a case of more means less.., so less actually means more...

 

[AVUser001]

For such applications you should use "C" weighting.

Ok thanks, yes I switched to 'C' weighting after my post.

 

[AVUser001]

Most recommends 80 Hz because that's a safe bet, given that you don't really know the frequency response of your speakers as placed in your room. If you do, and if you see the in room response extended down really low, then there is a good chance that the low frequency output from the main left/right speakers may interact negatively with your subwoofers. Example, you may have some major dips in the 20 to 150 Hz range due to cancellations. Setting XO higher than 80 Hz will help lessening such negative effects. It is a case of more means less.., so less actually means more...

Right 80 Hz is the generic recommendation, seems SVS merlin suggests lowering all the way to 60Hz for 2 channel application for this particular speaker model with their subs. Reason for me bringing this up, is that I actually liked low frequency o/p from the mains in this range, than the Sub. Sounded more integrated! It may have very well to do with the poor Sub-out from the Sonos Amp and not reflective of the Sub. This is actually what triggered my quest to find an alternative to the Sonos amp.

I will have to recalibrate all these , after replacing the Sonos amp.

 

[PENG]

Right 80 Hz is the generic recommendation, seems SVS merlin suggests lowering all the way to 60Hz for 2 channel application for this particular speaker model with their subs. Reason for me bringing this up, is that I actually liked low frequency o/p from the mains in this range, than the Sub. Sounded more integrated! It may have very well to do with the poor Sub-out from the Sonos Amp and not reflective of the Sub. This is actually what triggered my quest to find an alternative to the Sonos amp.

I will have to recalibrate all these , after replacing the Sonos amp.

It depends on your room, placement, DRC, and your preference. I go by the measured data, and I aim for the best possible accuracy/neutrality.

 

[AVUser001]

That calculator is based on sensitivity X dB/W/meter, and that is for 8 ohm nominal impedance. So for 4 ohm nominal speakers such as yours, you should subtract 3 dB from the calculated value, so 5 W average will get you 88.5 dB average, and for 75 dB average, you only need about 0.115 W.

Ok, got it . Looks like that calculator needs to take in the nominal impedence as an additional input.

75 dB average is just about as loud as I would like for serious music enjoyment, but that's not THX reference level. If you target ref level, that's 85 dB average 105 dB peak, you would need 10X22.5 = 225 W. The Denon AVR-X3400H (rated 105 W average 210 W peak, 8 ohms) can do it without clipping, but you would have only about 1 to 2 dB head room based on measured results I have seen.

Let me get this right.., 75 dB -> 22.5W , 78 dB-> 45 W, 81 dB -> 90W , 84 dB -> 180 W . The 10x (of 225W) for reference level is an approximation ?

Thanks..,yes , looks like AVRs are back into contention..,but also I may have to go beyond the $1K range I was targeting earlier..,
So you'd still favor a X3400(or 3600h) or even X4500( with price reduced) over something like Marantz PM7000N or Denon PMA-1600NE ? I do like the compacts in my office , but the prices are not attractive..

Also, saw this note on NAD support for Airplay2 on certain models Airplay2 support on NAD devices. One thing I noticed on these NAD amps is the lower distortion on 4 ohms.. , while the D&M amps have atleast 0.7% THD at 4Ohms with 2 channels driven.

Appreciate your continued assistance!

 

[John Parks]

Sound & Vision just reviewed the Denon DRA-800H that was thrown (by me, admittedly) into your mix: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-dra-800h-stereo-network-receiver-review

Unfortunately, no measurements. but the reviewer seemed to like it...

 

[John Parks]

Here is a refurb for considerably less outlay: https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/dendra800h/denon-dra-800h-2-x-100-watts-networking-stereo-receiver-w/heos/1.html