Setting speakers to Large and also crossover to 60 hz and above with LFE + MAIN

ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Isn't that kind of like saying that you shouldn't play movies through any regular speakers without adding a high-pass or shouldn't use TV speakers EVER for fear that a 25Hz signal might blow them to bits? I think it's safe to say that unless you're using an EQ boost to send ungodly amounts of bass to regular speakers, they won't normally blow up just by using them with movies.
In general, I agree...
I've also seen the max excursion charts for frequency vs SPL of various drivers. In theory, some drivers don't look like they would fare well against high SPL with LF signal. Maybe its not as big a deal, but I'd rather not find out the hard way with a $400 driver, for example. Or with a set of speakers I might not easily replace without going into debt, regardless of whether they are mine or his. ;)
Regardless, without knowing OPs listening habits, it does seem prudent to warn him of the possibility, though. Because if it wasn't real, those max excursion models wouldn't exist. :)
 
VonMagnum

VonMagnum

Audioholic Chief
Well, I did blow one of my Carver 10" woofers playing that bit in The Force Awakens when they blow up several planets, but I had it turned up pretty far and it was over 30 years old at the time (well it did something to the voice coil anyway; I had to buy a used one off the Net to replace it).
 
M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
Hi Audioholics,

I have ELAC DEBUT 6.2 and C6.2 speakers and Boston Acoustics ASW 250.
I tried a new setting where I could set my Speakers to Large and at the same time set the crossover to 60 hz and above while setting the LFE to LFE + Main, I know ideally speakers should be set to small.

Has any one tried this with Speakers that are capable of doing at least mid 40s ??

My music became more punchier than ever before with these settings. Any thoughts?
I like the full range coming from my front L/R because, first, they go down to 18Hz and, second, I have a super powerful amp to drive them. So, I set my front L/R speakers to LARGE in the AVR setup. Seems to work out fine. I like to hear the deep bass in movies that is part of the front L/R signal to come out of those speakers, rather than being sent to a sub.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I like the full range coming from my front L/R because, first, they go down to 18Hz and, second, I have a super powerful amp to drive them. So, I set my front L/R speakers to LARGE in the AVR setup. Seems to work out fine. I like to hear the deep bass in movies that is part of the front L/R signal to come out of those speakers, rather than being sent to a sub.
What sub? Room details?
 
VonMagnum

VonMagnum

Audioholic Chief
I've noticed some people (especially on judgmental AVS) look down on full range systems, especially without subs and yet I've read research that suggests it's FAR better to have say seven speakers producing full range bass in a room than just one in terms of room modes (the more the merrier). Now that's a generality and things can be tuned with just two subs pretty well, I'm sure, but the idea is sound. Perhaps they're not the ideal spot, but with 7+ subs in the room, I'm betting it starts to even out anyway. Of course, that could be material dependent (i.e. if you sent all of them the LFE signal it would help for sure, but if bass is only in some of the speakers, less so). But give me a room with 7.0.4 using Def Tech towers with built-in powered subs and I'd bet it'd hold its own against some subwoofer based systems with some pretty pricey stuff and at LEAST two subs. And more importantly, it'd do it without all the guess work and checking settings trying to integrate multiple subs (since you have no choice; they have to go where they have to go). But they screamed bloody murder at AVS when I suggested such a heresy.... :D

I'm not saying either way is "best" but I hate this notion only one thing "can" work. I'm only running ONE subwoofer in a 12x24 room now (I do leave the rear X1T towers down to 40Hz since they're so far from the sub) and the curve I get isn't perfect for everyone (6 seats, 3 rows in a 3x2x1 config). I get +/- 2.5dB for bass at the MLP, but even the worst seat (actually right front) is +/-7.5 dB (mostly in the PLUS direction as in MORE bass and the person that normally sits there LOVES that so they don't want me screwing with it; they're a bass addict I think). All the rest are less than +/- 5dB.

Now you can look at that negatively and say that's a 10dB swing there (at normal frequencies, that's almost a full 1/2 or double volume difference), but at bass frequencies it's less than that to the ear due to its insensitivity and when you figure MOST speakers aim for +/- 3dB in an anechoic chamber (let alone a REAL ROOM), I don't think it's that terrible. Given I have 1-3 people using the theater at most 90% of the time, I haven't been in a real hurry to get a second sub. But people who want to win arguments had a FIT at those forums how I should keep my opinions to myself when I can't even admit I *BADLY* need at LEAST one more sub, if not maybe 4 more just to be sure.... :rolleyes: (yeah I"m covered; my seat gets +/- 2.5db).

Honestly, I think getting EVEN volume levels is more of an issue (i.e. it's like 7dB quieter in the back of the room than the front and 4dB down at the second row so I have to either crank it 4dB higher or split the difference. I can't make sound not lose energy as it crosses the room. If you sit in the front row vs back row in a real cinema, you can expect to notice a volume difference too. But it's certainly LISTENABLE (I've heard FAR FAR worse from sound bars, let alone TV speakers most of the world listens to) as the volume drops pretty even across the spectrum for the most part.

Oh, the screen appears considerably smaller from the back of the room too (24' away from the 92" screen). It still looks larger than my upstairs wall plasma from the only row). I watched the Super Bowl from the back row (I might as well take the smallest view seat) and thought it still looked big compared to upstairs. Surround sound is very interesting from the back (sounds like a sound tornado in some of the demos since most things are all over the place in front of you, high and low and all over the place).
 
M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
Well, my surrounds are towers as well, and I have them set to LARGE as well. Thus, in action movies there is a lot of bass from my front mains and the surrounds, which is enough bass for me. I'm just not so much in to the LFE rumble as most are. I realize that I am not doing it the way that the vast majority of HT enthusiasts do.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I used to do 120s on my BA A2310hts. Sub localization is also to be considered when setting the crossover that high.



Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
Great Sound is the salient consideration no matter what XO point you choose.

Every system is different.
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
Great Sound is the salient consideration no matter what XO point you choose.

Every system is different.
Yes, every system is different. When I purchased my JBL B380 sub I did not consider buying the 63 Hz JBL crossover for it. This is because my Prepro could handle that function; yet, initially I did not adjust my mains to crossover although my sub was specifically made to extend the performance of my JBL L100's from a 63 Hz crossover. Eventually , I thought why not do what the manufacturer suggests, and now set to crossover at 60 Hz, I am certain 60 Hz is about right.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I like the full range coming from my front L/R because, first, they go down to 18Hz and, second, I have a super powerful amp to drive them.
That's the thing, yours have two 6.5" mid woofers vs the single 6.5" the woofer in the OP's Elac, and on top of that you have 3X 10" woofers. Completely different stories!!!:D:D
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I feel that the higher you go in crossover, it's sweetness is gone.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
I felt that too, but the fact of the matter is my system measures and sounds better with a higher crossover. My speakers are solid down to 30 hz and I'm running 120 hz crossover.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I like the full range coming from my front L/R because, first, they go down to 18Hz and, second, I have a super powerful amp to drive them. So, I set my front L/R speakers to LARGE in the AVR setup. Seems to work out fine. I like to hear the deep bass in movies that is part of the front L/R signal to come out of those speakers, rather than being sent to a sub.
I think you will find that if you play a 20Hz test tone through the Legacy Sigs you will not feel anything. You may hear some sound which is just harmonic distortion, but that's about it. The Legacy Focus, a much larger speaker, had a response curve that fell like a rock below about 30Hz.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I felt that too, but the fact of the matter is my system measures and sounds better with a higher crossover. My speakers are solid down to 30 hz and I'm running 120 hz crossover.
I always find that amazing, given what you have. It seems like an extreme case. My mains have -3 dB in room response down to 21 Hz, a huge dip at around 45 Hz that Audyssey could not fixed (understandably); and I found 80 or 90 Hz worked best with my two SVS subs.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I always find that amazing, given what you have. It seems like an extreme case. My mains have -3 dB in room response down to 21 Hz, a huge dip at around 45 Hz that Audyssey could not fixed (understandably); and I found 80 or 90 Hz worked best with my two SVS subs.
Right, his room has an opening (without a door) to the right of his speaker. :)
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I always find that amazing, given what you have. It seems like an extreme case. My mains have -3 dB in room response down to 21 Hz, a huge dip at around 45 Hz that Audyssey could not fixed (understandably); and I found 80 or 90 Hz worked best with my two SVS subs.
I can run a lower crossover and it's still acceptable, but you can tell there's a little missing. The right side of my room causes a huuuuge suckout around 45 hz too.
 
M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
I think you will find that if you play a 20Hz test tone through the Legacy Sigs you will not feel anything. You may hear some sound which is just harmonic distortion, but that's about it. The Legacy Focus, a much larger speaker, had a response curve that fell like a rock below about 30Hz.
Yes, you're probably right, as there seems to be a bass null at the listening position on the sofa. I don't have any of the test equipment to play a tone, so I don't know for sure. As this is a family room system, I don't have room for multiple subs, anyway.

But, the bass is okay for me, especially when the tower surrounds are cranking out bass as well as the fronts. Someday, I'm planning to revamp this system, probably with smaller and better quality towers for the front L/R channels, and a quality center speaker, so I may have to try to fit a sub in there somewhere.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Yes, you're probably right, as there seems to be a bass null at the listening position on the sofa. I don't have any of the test equipment to play a tone, so I don't know for sure. As this is a family room system, I don't have room for multiple subs, anyway.

But, the bass is okay for me, especially when the tower surrounds are cranking out bass as well as the fronts. Someday, I'm planning to revamp this system, probably with smaller and better quality towers for the front L/R channels, and a quality center speaker, so I may have to try to fit a sub in there somewhere.
My guess is that the Signatures are good for powerful 32Hz bass or so, perhaps down to perhaps 28Hz in-room, which is good enough for anything but violent action movies. I owned the original Legacy Focus, three active 12" woofers and all, which Legacy rated down to 16Hz, and they were all done by 25Hz. Since they were in a music-only system I noticed the difference on a few organ CDs, but not otherwise.

I also agree with VonMagnum that one sub can be enough, especially if you run the Legacies full-range, and just use the sub with EQ to fill in dips and at the roll-off point. Lots of folks on AH get pretty carried away with deep bass and massive ported subs. If you're into air shuddering in a 5000 cuft++ room they might be necessary, but many of us have more modest requirements. You might be one of us.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Nim


Mine are 90hz as well! Ascend towers and a Rythmik sub. I used to listen at small and 60hz, but I discovered 90hz sounds better... don't know why though.
Many rooms have a suck-out in the 80-120Hz range, and raising the crossover point can help fill in most or all of it. Measurement at your listening seat is a powerful tool for bass tuning.
 
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