Debating switching from Yamaha to NAD

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Ceiling height is around 2.75m. Many thanks for the calculation attempt

I have, and had, many Focal speakers. My previous Chorus 726 were very easy, I never felt the need of EQ. My current Aria 906 (as surround now but I tried them as Front) the same. And the same with 706, cc700 and cc 900

However the 948 are tricky, bass can cover the midrange

So, going back to the OP question, that I also wonder, would a NAD with Dirac (or even an Anthem MRX 720) made a big difference?
As ADTG alluded to, fans of each will have the expected answers to your questions. Thanks to Steve Munz and Theo Nicolakis, you can read their interviews with the three Ph.Ds, and then you may form your own opinion.

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/anthem-arc-room-eq-interview
https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/audyssey-room-eq-interview
https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/dirac-room-correction-interview

Anthem ARC uses iir (infinite impulse response) filters, Audyssey use FIR (finite impulse response) and Dirac Live claims that they are "mixed phase correction" to take the best of both. So to me, Anthem, being IIR filters based, seems like a high end PEQ. I highly doubt they can do better than Audyssey XT32 that can now be tweaked with the Editor App.

More on FIR and IIR:

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/dsp-basics/fir-vs-iir-filtering
https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-341-discrete-time-signal-processing-fall-2005/lecture-notes/lec08.pdf
https://community.plm.automation.siemens.com/t5/Testing-Knowledge-Base/Introduction-to-Filters-FIR-versus-IIR/ta-p/520959
 
D

Deckard71

Junior Audioholic
As ADTG alluded to, fans of each will have the expected answers to your questions. Thanks to Steve Munz and Theo Nicolakis, you can read their interviews with the three Ph.Ds, and then you may form your own opinion.

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/anthem-arc-room-eq-interview
https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/audyssey-room-eq-interview
https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/dirac-room-correction-interview

Anthem ARC uses iir (infinite impulse response) filters, Audyssey use FIR (finite impulse response) and Dirac Live claims that they are "mixed phase correction" to take the best of both. So to me, Anthem, being IIR filters based, seems like a high end PEQ. I highly doubt they can do better than Audyssey XT32 that can now be tweaked with the Editor App.

More on FIR and IIR:

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/dsp-basics/fir-vs-iir-filtering
https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-341-discrete-time-signal-processing-fall-2005/lecture-notes/lec08.pdf
https://community.plm.automation.siemens.com/t5/Testing-Knowledge-Base/Introduction-to-Filters-FIR-versus-IIR/ta-p/520959
Thanks, lot of reading that I will enjoy. The good thing about Yamaha is the flexibility you have to play with PEQ in combination with the IFR generated by YPAO. The bad thing is it requires a lot of trial and error, especially because not always a flat response is the best, and that requires a lot of experimenting
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks, lot of reading that I will enjoy. The good thing about Yamaha is the flexibility you have to play with PEQ in combination with the IFR generated by YPAO. The bad thing is it requires a lot of trial and error, especially because not always a flat response is the best, and that requires a lot of experimenting
The same will apply even with Dirac live and AARC unless you happen to like flat FR.

I am hoping to test Dirac live in my 2 channel home, just need to find the time.
 
S

sakete

Audioholic
Well, today is the last day I could return the Yamaha if I wanted. Now I'm debating if I should switch to Denon/Marantz, since I could then use the Audyssey Editor App, which would make it easier for me to add a room curve. I'd probably go for the Denon X6400 if anything, to get the same power rating as the Yamaha A2070.

Denon/Marantz also updated their apps recently I see and they work a lot smoother now.

Worth it?
 
D

Deckard71

Junior Audioholic
Well, today is the last day I could return the Yamaha if I wanted. Now I'm debating if I should switch to Denon/Marantz, since I could then use the Audyssey Editor App, which would make it easier for me to add a room curve. I'd probably go for the Denon X6400 if anything, to get the same power rating as the Yamaha A2070.

Denon/Marantz also updated their apps recently I see and they work a lot smoother now.

Worth it?
I would never change a Yamaha by a D/M. When/if I change in the future, it will be to Anthem.

Are not you happy with your A2070?
 
S

sakete

Audioholic
I would never change a Yamaha by a D/M. When/if I change in the future, it will be to Anthem.

Are not you happy with your A2070?
Haha, it's more just a nagging feeling I guess :) I probably shouldn't and just stick with the Yamaha, as I am happy with it overall. Was just reading up on the Audyssey Editor app you can use with D/M and the ability to add custom curves, which is easier to do than the manual approach with Yamaha. That's all really :)
 
Montucky

Montucky

Full Audioholic
Worth it?
Only you can determine that. While I personally have enjoyed some Denon and Marantz models I've worked with, just be aware that you may be sacrificing some reliability by making the switch. Yamaha's the best on that front.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Well, today is the last day I could return the Yamaha if I wanted. Now I'm debating if I should switch to Denon/Marantz, since I could then use the Audyssey Editor App, which would make it easier for me to add a room curve. I'd probably go for the Denon X6400 if anything, to get the same power rating as the Yamaha A2070.

Denon/Marantz also updated their apps recently I see and they work a lot smoother now.

Worth it?
Not a bad idea, it is made in Japan and yes, the updated app EQ to 15 Hz flat. Before that it ramped down from 20 Hz iirc.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Only you can determine that. While I personally have enjoyed some Denon and Marantz models I've worked with, just be aware that you may be sacrificing some reliability by making the switch. Yamaha's the best on that front.
But the 6000 series are made in Japan, @M Code may approve it a little?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I would never change a Yamaha by a D/M. When/if I change in the future, it will be to Anthem.

Are not you happy with your A2070?
Well then you will be paying more for less , just imo, but I do consider some known facts to base my O on.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Well, today is the last day I could return the Yamaha if I wanted. Now I'm debating if I should switch to Denon/Marantz, since I could then use the Audyssey Editor App, which would make it easier for me to add a room curve. I'd probably go for the Denon X6400 if anything, to get the same power rating as the Yamaha A2070.

Denon/Marantz also updated their apps recently I see and they work a lot smoother now.

Worth it?
If you're not 100% happy with the sound or the graphs and you have the time and patience, go for it. :D
 
S

sakete

Audioholic
Not a bad idea, it is made in Japan and yes, the updated app EQ to 15 Hz flat. Before that it ramped down from 20 Hz iirc.
Would you say it's better to go with Denon or Marantz? I can get a X6400 New for $1.5K, X6500 refurb for $1.6K, Marantz SR7012 refurb for $1K, Marantz SR7013 refurb for $1.4K.

Also, 140W vs 125W doesn't really make a big difference, right? Is the Made in Japan worth it though, should that really be higher quality? (that was the main reason I was looking at X6400/X6500).

Still debating it, and I realize Yamaha will be more reliable, but D/M aren't that unreliable either, right?

One last benefit is dimensions, the D/M equivalents are just smaller than the Yamaha. The Yamaha is very deep, which means it will not fit most TV furniture.
 
S

sakete

Audioholic
If you're not 100% happy with the sound or the graphs and you have the time and patience, go for it. :D
I think I'm happy with the sound, my main reason for considering D/M is the relative ease of editing target curves and running Audyssey to get close to those targets. Yamaha requires too much tinkering and with a baby at home I just don't have all the time in the world to do so :) So yeah, happy with the sound but I can maybe make it better.
 
D

Deckard71

Junior Audioholic
Well then you will be paying more for less , just imo, but I do consider some known facts to base my O on.
I know Anthems are overpriced. What I meant is that switching from Yamaha to D/M would not make sense for me, being all mainstream brands, and within this range, I prefer Yamaha. Better build quality, better menus (at least for me), better flexibility (patterns, scenes), etc. So if someday I change, it will be to something more high end in terms of SQ, say Anthem, Arcam or NAD. And I know they are overpriced, especially Anthem
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I know Anthems are overpriced. What I meant is that switching from Yamaha to D/M would not make sense for me, being all mainstream brands, and within this range, I prefer Yamaha. Better build quality, better menus (at least for me), better flexibility (patterns, scenes), etc. So if someday I change, it will be to something more high end in terms of SQ, say Anthem, Arcam or NAD. And I know they are overpriced, especially Anthem
But over priced does not always = high end. High end implies something that generally use parts with better specs, and that cost more money. Anthem and NAD avrs generally use the same kind, or even lower spec ICs, and other parts that matter to audio, they are priced higher because they don't have the sales volume to secure pricing that D&M and Yamaha enjoy. I would consider the likes of Arcam and Rotel's higher end than Yamaha and Denon, but not Anthem and NAD. The newest NAD is at least heading in the right direction, by adopting Dirac Live, and there are signs they might have improved on the power supply. Having seen that on the Anthem side yet.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
But over priced does not always = high end. High end implies something that generally use parts with better specs, and that cost more money. Anthem and NAD avrs generally use the same kind, or even lower spec ICs, and other parts that matter to audio, they are priced higher because they don't have the sales volume to secure pricing that D&M and Yamaha enjoy.
Yeah. It's an interesting cycle.:D

NAD, Anthem, Arcam, Rotel don't sell as much and cost more money.

Since they don't sell as much, they don't have the same economies of scale, which results in higher prices, which in turn feeds into the high-end/higher price notion. :D

But at the end of the day, if people have the money and it makes them feel good, they should go for it. :D

If I were a billionaire, I would be owning $100K electronics. :D
 
Montucky

Montucky

Full Audioholic
Still debating it, and I realize Yamaha will be more reliable, but D/M aren't that unreliable either, right?
Yeah, I don't think they're quite as bad as the internet would have you believe. Personally I HAVE seen a higher failure rate of them perhaps thanks to their association with Onkyo and sharing sub-par quality parts, so I've seen the same problems on Onkyos, Denons, Pioneers, usually being bad HDMI boards, but I think they have that pretty well sorted out these days. Unfortunately it tarnished their reputation for a long time.

As you pointed out, they can be dimensionally smaller too, but that could be at the expense of thermals. Yamahas tend to run cooler than just about anything, which I'm sure lends itself to long term reliability. Why they run cooler is due to a variety of factors but they've always blown me away with how cool they run, even when you're really putting them through their paces. Many of the Denons/Onkyos/Pioneers I've worked on have run HOOOOOOT, so if you have them in a cabinet, plan on adding active cooling. Any time I saw a customer with one, I'd usually insist on adding a ventilation system of some sort. Especially measuring temps and seeing an impending core meltdown coming. Almost every total failure I'd see with these products was likely due to them being operated in an enclosed cabinet. Any time I added cooling, I never saw a problem, so that's my guess.

I say if you keep second guessing your Yamaha purchase, then just bite the bullet and give the Denon or Marantz a try. No matter what the results, you'll probably be most satisfied knowing that you made a seriously informed decision in the end! Even if you go back to the Yamaha.

I'm all for experimenting, so give it a whirl and post your results!
 
Montucky

Montucky

Full Audioholic
If I were a billionaire, I would be owning $100K electronics. :D
If we were billionaires, I think our budget would waaaaaaaaay higher thank $100K. I've already planned out my dream theater for when I hit the lotto. I'm going full scale commercial Dolby Cinema complete with high end seating. I'll easily be dropping a couple mil on my setup. Will fly you all out for a proper demo of course! :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If we were billionaires, I think our budget would waaaaaaaaay higher thank $100K. I've already planned out my dream theater for when I hit the lotto. I'm going full scale commercial Dolby Cinema complete with high end seating. I'll easily be dropping a couple mil on my setup. Will fly you all out for a proper demo of course! :D
Oh, the $100K was just for the wires. I haven't gotten to the amps or pre-pros yet. :eek::D
 
D

Deckard71

Junior Audioholic
But over priced does not always = high end. High end implies something that generally use parts with better specs, and that cost more money. Anthem and NAD avrs generally use the same kind, or even lower spec ICs, and other parts that matter to audio, they are priced higher because they don't have the sales volume to secure pricing that D&M and Yamaha enjoy. I would consider the likes of Arcam and Rotel's higher end than Yamaha and Denon, but not Anthem and NAD. The newest NAD is at least heading in the right direction, by adopting Dirac Live, and there are signs they might have improved on the power supply. Having seen that on the Anthem side yet.
Agree, higher prices don’t necessarily mean higher end. But just based on what I READ, I see many people suffering issues with NAD AVRs, so with Arcam... and very few with Anthem. Also, I have read lot of times these weeks that Anthem is the “best sounding receiver ever”. Even a couple of friends have claimed the same, with one of them thinking about selling his McIntosh integrated amp because the Anthem is superb with music
 

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