Yamaha CX-A5200 and MX-A5200

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Haha, the truth, or more of it finally come out, now you are talking..

Most of the T-system and SVT Towers are meant to be bi-amped = using 2 power amps per tower = one amp for top cabinet (92dB/2.83V/m),one amp for bottom cabinet (90dB/2.83v/m).

This means 5 towers = 10CH amps and 4 ceiling speakers = another 4Ch amps for a total of 14Ch amps.

So I use the MX-A5000 to power the 5 top cabinets and 4 ceiling speakers.

Like you said, the key word is the VOLUME.

Back when I had the 60WPC ATI amp (AT6012, which is 60W x 12Ch),I actually used this 60WPC ATI amp to power the bottom cabinets of the T-system. And it worked great. I got tremendous amount of clean bass.

So if I got great bass from the SX-1010 bottom bass cabinets using 60WPC amp, I am confident I could get great bass from 150WPC amp.

But it's all relative to the VOLUME and frequency, as you repeated said.

These 90dB/2.83V/m subwoofer cabinets are also for 20Hz+ in-room response, not 10Hz. So if I were going for 10Hz at 110dB, that would be a totally different story.

But 20Hz and above frequency at probably no more than 100dB volume, it seems even a 60WPC amp is fine.

My first ever subwoofer was a 10" NHT subwoofer with an 80W amp. And even this single subwoofer shook the 18'x20' room really well.

 

[PENG]

Most of the T-system and SVT Towers are meant to be bi-amped = using 2 power amps per tower = one amp for top cabinet (92dB/2.83V/m),one amp for bottom cabinet (90dB/2.83v/m).

This means 5 towers = 10CH amps and 4 ceiling speakers = another 4Ch amps for a total of 14Ch amps.

So I use the MX-A5000 to power the 5 top cabinets and 4 ceiling speakers.

Like you said, the key word is the VOLUME.

Back when I had the 60WPC ATI amp (AT6012, which is 60W x 12Ch),I actually used this 60WPC ATI amp to power the bottom cabinets of the T-system. And it worked great. I got tremendous amount of clean bass.

So if I got great bass from the SX-1010 bottom bass cabinets using 60WPC amp, I am confident I could get great bass from 150WPC amp.

But it's all relative to the VOLUME and frequency, as you repeated said.

These 90dB/2.83V/m subwoofer cabinets are also for 20Hz+ in-room response, not 10Hz. So if I were going for 10Hz at 110dB, that would be a totally different story.

But 20Hz and above frequency at probably no more than 100dB volume, it seems even a 60WPC amp is fine.

My first ever subwoofer was a 10" NHT subwoofer with an 80W amp. And even this single subwoofer shook the 18'x20' room really well.

Yeah you put that 11 channel amp to good use this way for sure.

 

[PENG]

Actual in theory, doubling the voltage would increase power 4X. However, that never happens due to power supply limitations. The MX-A5200, as well as other bridgeable amplifiers I've measured, typically switch to a lower voltage tap of the transformer when in bridged mode to prevent this.

Yep, and you were right from the beginning that the MX-A amp was akin to the RX-Z11, i.e. an AVR, albeit a very powerful AVR. So not surprisingly, when bridged it could not get close to 4X or even 2.5X the rated output into 8 ohm. No AVRs can, so no AVR derived amps can either.

The Denon POA-A1hdci kept these channels all independent. A true masterpiece. Why did I sell it?

Was it because it was tough for you to pick it up safely by yourself?

Seriusly, the brochure and manual says 132 lbs 4 oz, could that be a typo? If not, that fact alone tell us it isn't an AVR derived power amp for sure. If true, 132 lb for a 10 channel power amp is a bit much for most home HT.

For about $1K more, an AT528NC (200WX8, $4.6K) for the surrounds and AT543NC (500WX3, $3.9K) for the LCR would be a more practical solution, but I guess you are not quite ready yet to join the class D club.

By the way, the little 100W Benchmark ABH2 is one that claims "The bridged MONO mode will deliver almost 4 times as much power into an 8-Ohm speaker, and will do so without any increase in distortion." That sounds incredibly good, may be you should verify that on your bench.

 

[gene]

Yep, and you were right from the beginning that the MX-A amp was akin to the RX-Z11, i.e. an AVR, albeit a very powerful AVR. So not surprisingly, when bridged it could not get close to 4X or even 2.5X the rated output into 8 ohm. No AVRs can, so no AVR derived amps can either.



Was it because it was tough for you to pick it up safely by yourself?

Seriusly, the brochure and manual says 132 lbs 4 oz, could that be a typo? If not, that fact alone tell us it isn't an AVR derived power amp for sure. If true, 132 lb for a 10 channel power amp is a bit much for most home HT.

For about $1K more, an AT528NC (200WX8, $4.6K) for the surrounds and AT543NC (500WX3, $3.9K) for the LCR would be a more practical solution, but I guess you are not quite ready yet to join the class D club.

By the way, the little 100W Benchmark ABH2 is one that claims "The bridged MONO mode will deliver almost 4 times as much power into an 8-Ohm speaker, and will do so without any increase in distortion." That sounds incredibly good, may be you should verify that on your bench.

That's no typo, I lifted all 132+lbs of the POA-A1HDCI up 2 flights of steps and loaded it into my AV rack by myself. I didn't walk right for 2 days after....

I sold it as a package deal with my AVP processor unfortunately.

Yes ATI is a great option for sure.

Benchmark is a bit pompous. They won't let me measure their amp with my APx585 and want me to borrow or trade it in for a 2CH AP that has higher resolution bc they fear the distortion of my AP is too high to show how clean their amp is. I'm not rearranging my test gear for one amplifier, especially for a company I don't even work with on a regular basis. So, they lose the press of nearly 2 million readers/mo despite the fact I told them I could note the limitations of the test gear.

I also am NOT convinced their amp can hit those power levels full bandwidth, continuous as I don't see anything in what they publish that shows that. Oh well.

 

[PENG]

That's no typo, I lifted all 132+lbs of the POA-A1HDCI up 2 flights of steps and loaded it into my AV rack by myself. I didn't walk right for 2 days after....

I sold it as a package deal with my AVP processor unfortunately.

Yes ATI is a great option for sure.

Benchmark is a bit pompous. They won't let me measure their amp with my APx585 and want me to borrow or trade it in for a 2CH AP that has higher resolution bc they fear the distortion of my AP is too high to show how clean their amp is. I'm not rearranging my test gear for one amplifier, especially for a company I don't even work with on a regular basis. So, they lose the press of nearly 2 million readers/mo despite the fact I told them I could note the limitations of the test gear.

I also am NOT convinced their amp can hit those power levels full bandwidth, continuous as I don't see anything in what they publish that shows that. Oh well.

Thanks, I was literally laughing as I was reading..

 

[gattaca]

After quite a bit of research , I was preparing to push the BUY button on an CX-A5200 when I read Gene's findings. Now it seems like these have a manufacturing defect and may need to be repaired outta the box. Also, in most cases from the comments herein, depending on the AMP being driven (balanced inputs),it might not really be a problem. The last thing is we are so close to the model turn-over that I'm considering waiting a few more weeks to see what happens with the new model year. The final option is buying a less expensive used but rock solid A5100 which has gotten high-praises. I'm only replacing a 9 yr old Onkyo PR-SC5508 b/c I'm starting the process to upgrade to a 4K TV. I need to rework these 2 components together or it's why bother. Thoughts? Thanks!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

After quite a bit of research , I was preparing to push the BUY button on an CX-A5200 when I read Gene's findings. Now it seems like these have a manufacturing defect and may need to be repaired outta the box. Also, in most cases from the comments herein, depending on the AMP being driven (balanced inputs),it might not really be a problem. The last thing is we are so close to the model turn-over that I'm considering waiting a few more weeks to see what happens with the new model year. The final option is buying a less expensive used but rock solid A5100 which has gotten high-praises. I'm only replacing a 9 yr old Onkyo PR-SC5508 b/c I'm starting the process to upgrade to a 4K TV. I need to rework these 2 components together or it's why bother. Thoughts? Thanks!

Gene says the “distortion” level of the Front L/R is not SOTA, but it is not audible.

I actually spent some time with a friend who just bought the CX-A5200 (with ATI AT527NC and XLR cables),even though I told him that he could get the CX-A5100 brand new for less.

But he insisted on paying more and got the 5200.

Anyway, we listened to music and watched movies. Sounded like state of the art, even if the Front L/R XLR distortion didn’t measure like SOTA.

I don’t think the 5200 offers anything more than the 5100 anyway. So I would get the 5100. But I doubt anyone can actually hear the difference using XLR.

I doubt there will be a 5300 model this year or next. They may do an updated CX-A5200B to get SOTA distortion level.

The 5300 will probably be released in about 3 years and probably have HDMI 2.1 and 8K.

 

[gene]

After quite a bit of research , I was preparing to push the BUY button on an CX-A5200 when I read Gene's findings. Now it seems like these have a manufacturing defect and may need to be repaired outta the box. Also, in most cases from the comments herein, depending on the AMP being driven (balanced inputs),it might not really be a problem. The last thing is we are so close to the model turn-over that I'm considering waiting a few more weeks to see what happens with the new model year. The final option is buying a less expensive used but rock solid A5100 which has gotten high-praises. I'm only replacing a 9 yr old Onkyo PR-SC5508 b/c I'm starting the process to upgrade to a 4K TV. I need to rework these 2 components together or it's why bother. Thoughts? Thanks!

I'm still using the 5100. The only gripe I have about it is the slow HDMI switching. 5200 distortion issue is mostly a bench test problem though admittedly I have not connected it to my system to test for audibility. If you pick an amp that reaches full power at 2Vrms it will probably be fine. It just bothers me that we are getting worse than receiver level distortion via the balanced outs of a dedicated pre/pro. It should be so much better based on the sum of the parts.

 

[PENG]

But I doubt anyone can actually hear the difference using XLR.

Unless I have forgotten some details already, the distortions Gene found is not unique to using RCA or XLR.

 

[HTfreak2004]

What’s the diff between 140 and 150 watts? Less than half a db of headroom

 

[HTfreak2004]

I'm still using the 5100. The only gripe I have about it is the slow HDMI switching. 5200 distortion issue is mostly a bench test problem though admittedly I have not connected it to my system to test for audibility. If you pick an amp that reaches full power at 2Vrms it will probably be fine. It just bothers me that we are getting worse than receiver level distortion via the balanced outs of a dedicated pre/pro. It should be so much better based on the sum of the parts.

Are the other outputs delivering the same distortion numbers?

 

[PENG]

What’s the diff between 140 and 150 watts? Less than half a db of headroom

Put it this way, going from 140 watts to 150 watts represents an increase less than 0.3 dB, for 1 full dB increase you need to go up to about 176 watts, for 2 dB, 222 watts, and for 3 dB, well we know this easy one, it would be about 280 watts.

 

[HTfreak2004]

I was been rhetorical with my post.

 

[PENG]

I was been rhetorical with my post.

Oh, sorry..I should have known better... but I have only had 1 small coffee this morning.

 

[gattaca]

I'm still using the 5100. The only gripe I have about it is the slow HDMI switching. 5200 distortion issue is mostly a bench test problem though admittedly I have not connected it to my system to test for audibility. If you pick an amp that reaches full power at 2Vrms it will probably be fine. It just bothers me that we are getting worse than receiver level distortion via the balanced outs of a dedicated pre/pro. It should be so much better based on the sum of the parts.

Yes, I have notes on all the pre-amps I've thoroughly vetted, most of which have been reviewed or discussed herein (Marantz AV7705, 8802A, 8805; Yamaha CX-A5100/A5200, AVM-60, Integra/Onkyo). (BTW, your site and youtube reviews are awesome and quite helpful!) The slow HDMI switching speed is the noted for the Yamaha lines vs Marantz, but then the build quality and reliability more than balance that out. Coming from a 9 yr old Onkyo 5508, I'll still probably be impressed with the HDMI speeds.

As for the power engines, the AMPs specs say " Input sensitivity for rated output Unbalanced: 1.9 Vrms, Balanced: 0.95 Vrms" so this may be a no-op for my setup with balanced. I agree with Gene, I KNOW that flaw is there.

I've also read the deltas on the 5100/5200 and the AI Voice feature sounds like it could be really, really useful and has mostly gotten + press. I know my wife has a hard time understanding dialog sometimes which is why we run CC all the time. This is why I was leaning toward paying more for the 5200. That's where I sit today. Since it's been 9 years since I last did a major AV refresh, things have gotten pretty daunting!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Unless I have forgotten some details already, the distortions Gene found is not unique to using RCA or XLR.

I don't drink coffee, and I'm still waking up, but I think Gene said the XLR of one of the front L/R channels had more distortion than the other one.

 

[PENG]

I don't drink coffee, and I'm still waking up, but I think Gene said the XLR of one of the front L/R channels had more distortion than the other one.

Thank you, just feel a little lazy to re-read something now.

 

[HTfreak2004]

No problem! Just love how 10 watts is such a selling feature. Oh our AVR is 7 channel offering 70 watts more total power but divided by 7

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The slow HDMI switching speed is the noted for the Yamaha lines vs Marantz, but then the build quality and reliability more than balance that out. Coming from a 9 yr old Onkyo 5508, I'll still probably be impressed with the HDMI speeds.

I've also read the deltas on the 5100/5200 and the AI Voice feature sounds like it could be really, really useful and has mostly gotten + press. I know my wife has a hard time understanding dialog sometimes which is why we run CC all the time. Thanks!

I'm not as picky as Gene, so I don't even notice any HDMI-speed-switching issue at all after using the CX-A5100 for 1+ years now. Before the CX-A5100, I was using the Denon AVP-A1HDCI for 8+ years.

As for the AI, that's marketing IMO. I wouldn't even use it. Just boost that Center speaker level by 2-4dB. Also use the AV Controller remote App to quickly adjust the Center Dialogue level while you're watching.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thank you, just feel a little lazy to re-read something now.

I know exactly how that is.