Yamaha CX-A5200 and MX-A5200

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yamaha MX-A5200 11CH Amplifier Preliminary Measurements

Found a perplexing issue on the MX-A5200 11CH amplifier. The FFT in bridged mode produces much higher odd order harmonic distortion products. I attached a plot comparing the single amp vs bridged amp modes both tested at 1 watt. This is a shame because the bridged mode produced really impressive power levels as you can see it the plots below the FFT.

View attachment 30276
CH1 (blue) single amp mode
CH 2 (red) bridged mode
Note: the odd harmonics are >10dB worse for bridged vs single mode. When the amp is cold, the differences aren't as dramatic as when you let the amp run steadystate for a long period of time. Also, the 120Hz hum (power supply hum after rectifier circuit) gives me pause.

Yet, bridged mode belted out some impressive power #s far exceeding the 200watt (8 ohm) rating by Yamaha.

View attachment 30277

250 watts/ch 0.1% THD+N both channels driven, 8 ohms!

View attachment 30278

400 watts/ch 0.1% THD+N, 2CH driven, 4 ohms!

I wish things would be a bit more tidy with the FFT so I could be happy about writing up this review :/
In general, do most amps have increased distortion when bridged?

But in this case, the bridged-mode distortion is just higher than usual?

Is Yamaha saying that it's expected or acceptable with the bridged-mode?

But when not bridged, the distortion looks good?
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
In general, do most amps have increased distortion when bridged?

But in this case, the bridged-mode distortion is just higher than usual?

Is Yamaha saying that it's expected or acceptable with the bridged-mode?

But when not bridged, the distortion looks good?
No an amplifiers distortion should NOT increase like this when it's bridged.

Yamaha isn't saying anything.

When not bridged, the distortion is good, but not SOTA.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
No an amplifiers distortion should NOT increase like this when it's bridged.

Yamaha isn't saying anything.

When not bridged, the distortion is good, but not SOTA.
The 5100 preamp and 5000 amp didn’t have these issues, correct?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Correct but the 5000 amp wasn't bridgeable either.
Like @PENG said, perhaps the CX-A5200 and MX-A5000 are “bridge” models (pun intended) while Yamaha is designing the real CX-A5300 and MX-A5300 State-of-the-Art models after reading your findings. :D

It makes guys who already own the CX-A5100 and MX-A5000 feel “justified” when we said that the A5200 models didn’t seem to offer enough to warrant an “upgrade” - no reason for us to buy the newer models until there were more substantial upgrades like SOTA measurements (at least as good as the CX-A5100), 8K Video, and/or other features like being able to bridge 10 CHANNELS, instead of just 2 Channels for people who only need a 5Ch amp — 500W x 5CH bridged into 4 ohms at 1% THD sounds good to me. :D
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yamaha MX-A5200: odd harmonics are >10dB worse for bridged vs single mode.
Bridged Mode:250 watts/ch 0.1% THD+N both channels driven, 8 ohms, 400 watts/ch 0.1% THD+N, 2CH driven, 4 ohms
How does this 10dB worse bridged-mode harmonics translate into SNR compared to the MX-A5000’s non-bridged mode (115 dBA full power)?
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
How does this 10dB worse bridged-mode harmonics translate into SNR compared to the MX-A5000’s non-bridged mode (115 dBA full power)?
SNR is pretty good for both modes. I'm talking about distortion and how it's impacted based on bridged vs unbridged.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Like @PENG said, perhaps the CX-A5200 and MX-A5000 are “bridge” models (pun intended) while Yamaha is designing the real CX-A5300 and MX-A5300 State-of-the-Art models after reading your findings. :D

It makes guys who already own the CX-A5100 and MX-A5000 feel “justified” when we said that the A5200 models didn’t seem to offer enough to warrant an “upgrade” - no reason for us to buy the newer models until there were more substantial upgrades like SOTA measurements (at least as good as the CX-A5100), 8K Video, and/or other features like being able to bridge 10 CHANNELS, instead of just 2 Channels for people who only need a 5Ch amp — 500W x 5CH bridged into 4 ohms at 1% THD sounds good to me. :D
I would add that your non patentable term "AVR" derived applies to power amps as well. No matter how you look at them, the likes of the Onkyo and Marantz multi-channel amps are basically stripped down AVRs built to please TLSG by lessening the ill effects of the Jam-packed syndrome. They really don't add much value compared to a strong AVR plus external fans on top. For real multi-channel power amps, people need to look to ATI, it's cheaper clones, related cousins, Anthem, and may be Emotiva and some NAD's.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I would add that your non patentable term "AVR" derived applies to power amps as well. No matter how you look at them, the likes of the Onkyo and Marantz multi-channel amps are basically stripped down AVRs built to please TLSG by lessening the ill effects of the Jam-packed syndrome. They really don't add much value compared to a strong AVR plus external fans on top. For real multi-channel power amps, people need to look to ATI, it's cheaper clones, related cousins, Anthem, and may be Emotiva and some NAD's.
Yes, these AVR-derived amps aren’t hardcore amps like the ATI’s of the world. :D

But unlike these AVR-amps, Yamaha is making the MX-A5200 a little different by allowing Bridged-mode capability (400W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 0.1% THD, I think 500W x 2Ch @ % 1% THD).

I don’t think there’s ever been an AVR-derived amp that can output 500W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 1% THD.

That’s hardcore power!

So if Yamaha is already allowing 2Ch bridged mode with the MX-A5200, why not take it up a notch and allow 5Ch bridged mode (400W x 5Ch into 4 ohms)?

I’m thinking along the line of the Denon 150X x 10CH POA amp that came out with the AVP-A1HDCI, which allowed 5Ch bridged mode.

But, yeah, I’m just dreaming because that’s not happening. :D
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Yes, these AVR-derived amps aren’t hardcore amps like the ATI’s of the world. :D

But unlike these AVR-amps, Yamaha is making the MX-A5200 a little different by allowing real bi-amp capability (400W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 0.1% THD, I think 500W x 2Ch @ % 1% THD).

I don’t think there’s ever been an AVR-derived amp that can output 500W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 1% THD.

That’s hardcore power!

So if Yamaha is already allowing 4Ch-biamp with the MX-A5200, why not take it up a notch and allow 10Ch-biamp (400W x 5Ch into 4 ohms)?

I’m thinking along the line of the Denon 150X x 10CH POA amp that came out with the AVP-A1HDCI, which allowed 10Ch-biamp into 5Ch.

But, yeah, I’m just dreaming because that’s not happening. :D
Okay, let's compare, and based on information from the official Yamaha website and their Owner's manual only.

Two channel driven, 20-20,000 hz, 0.06% THD
RX-A3080.........................150 W
MX-A5200........................150 W

Dynamic power IHF
RX-A3080.........................175/220/295/410 W 8/6/4/2 ohm
MX-A5200........................190/250/350/500 W 8/6/4/2 ohm

Power consumption
RX-A3080.........................490 W 1210 W maximum
MX-A5200........................650 W 1500 W maximum

So both are, like most AVRs, not rated for 4 ohm. If 4 ohm speakers are used, the manual tells you to use the impedance selector. As we both know, people like us would leave the impedance selector on the 8 ohm setting anyway. My point is that "real/non AVR derived/related" power amps wouldn't have such requirement, while the so called 4 ohm rated AVRs, or AVR derived, related power amps do.

There is no bi-amp rating so if you got that from a reliable source I appreciate a link to it. They do have a "bridged" rating, that is 200 WPC for channel 3 and 4, but also required the use of the impedance selector switch.

It looks to me the MX-A5200 very likely have the same output devices as the RX-A3080 but has a larger power supply that allows it to rate it about 15-18% more powerful. We both know that is insignificant as 100% more powerful means 3 dB louder, all else being equal.

In a way, Yamaha seems more conservative with this power amp as it rated it for 4 ohms (with the use of the impedance selector) for two channels only per owner's manual (see below). I might have interpreted that wrong, and if so hopefully Gene has more details on that.

Pg. 15:
Note on the speaker impedance The unit supports the following speaker impedance.
• CH.3 A/B: 4 ohm or more (8 ohm or more when using CH.3 A and CH.3 B at the same time)
• BRIDGE connection: 8 ohm or more
• Other channels: 6 ohm or more Set the IMPEDANCE SELECTOR to the upper/lower position depending on the speakers connected to the unit.

I know you are now 100% Yamaha, but hopefully remain objective as you have always been, and check your information source for credibility.

Edit: In AH's bench test for the MX-A5000 that seems to have identical power output specs to the MX-A5200, it did manage 396 W, two channel driven, at 1% THD, but that's "dynamic power" using the The CEA-2006 burst tests. For comparison, even the non flag ship Denon AVR-X5200W, also on AH's test bench, was able to output 300 WPC at 1% THD, so the MX-A5000 did about 1.2 dB better than the mid range AVR. So I highly doubt it can do better than even 1 dB against its cousin RX-A3080 or RX-A2080 in the same tone burst test.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
the non flag ship Denon AVR-X5200W, also on AH's test bench, was able to output 300 WPC at 1% THD
“The AVR-X5200W produced respectable output on the continuous sweep tests. For 8 ohms, two channels driven output was around 145 watts/channel and 205 watts/channel for 4 ohms under 1% THD+N. “

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x5200w/measurements

Denon 5200 = 206W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 1%THD, 193W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 0.1% THD.

$5500 Denon 5308 flagship = 339W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 1% THD, 279W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 0.1% THD.

Yamaha MX-A5200 bridged mode = 444W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 1% THD, 400W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 0.1% THD.

My point is that if Yamaha wants to offer more to their 11CH amp, then I would like to see a 5Ch bridged mode, instead of just a 2Ch bridged mode.

About 450W x 2CH into 4 ohms @ 1% THD is pretty good for an AVR-Amp.

What if all Channels could be bridged to produce 450W x 5Ch into 4 ohms @ 1% THD? :D
 
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S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Wondering if a Yamaha 3080 with a Monolith7 maybe is a winner over the 5200 Yamaha pair. Plus enough savings for sub upgrades. :)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
“The AVR-X5200W produced respectable output on the continuous sweep tests. For 8 ohms, two channels driven output was around 145 watts/channel and 205 watts/channel for 4 ohms under 1% THD+N. “

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x5200w/measurements

Denon 5200 = 206W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 1%THD, 193W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 0.1% THD.

$5500 Denon 5308 flagship = 339W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 1% THD, 279W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 0.1% THD.

Yamaha MX-A5200 bridged mode = 444W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 1% THD, 400W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 0.1% THD.

My point is that if Yamaha wants to offer more to their 11CH amp, then I would like to see a 5Ch bridged mode, instead of just a 2Ch bridged mode.

About 450W x 2CH into 4 ohms @ 1% THD is pretty good for an AVR-Amp.

What if all Channels could be bridged to produce 450W x 5Ch into 4 ohms @ 1% THD?
Why are you still comparing apples to oranges?
- The protocol for dynamic power measurement is different (you clarified this now I guess, by only quoting the bridged output)
- The bridge mode is a different thing, some amps are designed to be bridgeable, some are not, but those that are not does not always mean it is because of their power output capability. When you bridge two amps, you double the voltage and it becomes a two amp vs one comparison, so you need 4 channels to listen to two channel stereo but obviously you know that.:D
- I used the 5200 as example because that's the only mid end AVR Gene bench tested in recent years. I did mention in the beginning multi-channel amps such as Yamaha, Marantz and Onkyo's are not much more powerful than strong AVR, alluding to the likes of RX-A3080, Denon AVR-X8500H, or at least Marantz's SR8012.
They definitely are, and should be, significantly more powerful than the likes of the X5200W, and the newer X6500H, SR7013, X4500H, RX-A2080, MRX-720 etc., sadly even when compared to them, you are still looking at less than 2 dB difference.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I think you'd pay a lot more for it after they redesigned the power supply to be able to manage that!
If that’s the case, then forget it. :D

Not that Yamaha would do it anyway, but just shooting the breeze. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Why are you still comparing apples to oranges?
Ooh, you just gave me an idea. :D

So my point is exactly that - they are apples to oranges, not apples to apples. :D

Like I said to Kurt, it’s not happening anyway, but if they could somehow manage to make the MX-A5300 bridged for 450W x 5CH and not totally jack up the price, it would be apples to oranges.

But yeah, if the amp is just 150W x 11Ch, then it’s no different than an AVR-amp (apples to apples).

I guess you’re asking WHY? :D

Why not just get an ATI (or equivalents)?

No particular reason. Just shooting the breeze. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Ooh, you just gave me an idea. :D

So my point is exactly that - they are apples to oranges, not apples to apples. :D

Like I said to Kurt, it’s not happening anyway, but if they could somehow manage to make the MX-A5300 bridged for 450W x 5CH and not totally jack up the price, it would be apples to oranges.

But yeah, if the amp is just 150W x 11Ch, then it’s no different than an AVR-amp (apples to apples).

I guess you’re asking WHY? :D

Why not just get an ATI (or equivalents)?

No particular reason. Just shooting the breeze. :D
A CX-A5200+MX-A5200 is not much better than a RX-A3080, so owners of the CX-A5200 may as well go for a real power amps such as ATI's or Anthem MCA.

The MX-A5200 could be a nice match for the SR6013/14, or AVR-X3600H, but that's just my opinion based on cost/logic, and I expect most people will disagree..
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I would add that your non patentable term "AVR" derived applies to power amps as well. No matter how you look at them, the likes of the Onkyo and Marantz multi-channel amps are basically stripped down AVRs built to please TLSG by lessening the ill effects of the Jam-packed syndrome. They really don't add much value compared to a strong AVR plus external fans on top. For real multi-channel power amps, people need to look to ATI, it's cheaper clones, related cousins, Anthem, and may be Emotiva and some NAD's.
I'd agree the Monoprice ATI 11CH clone is a step up from the MX-A5200 but there are no other 11CH amps on the market to consider. I would still take the 5200 over the GEn3 XPA-11 Emotiva amp from what I've seen. NAD doesn't make 11CH amps.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Okay, let's compare, and based on information from the official Yamaha website and their Owner's manual only.

Two channel driven, 20-20,000 hz, 0.06% THD
RX-A3080.........................150 W
MX-A5200........................150 W

Dynamic power IHF
RX-A3080.........................175/220/295/410 W 8/6/4/2 ohm
MX-A5200........................190/250/350/500 W 8/6/4/2 ohm

Power consumption
RX-A3080.........................490 W 1210 W maximum
MX-A5200........................650 W 1500 W maximum

So both are, like most AVRs, not rated for 4 ohm. If 4 ohm speakers are used, the manual tells you to use the impedance selector. As we both know, people like us would leave the impedance selector on the 8 ohm setting anyway. My point is that "real/non AVR derived/related" power amps wouldn't have such requirement, while the so called 4 ohm rated AVRs, or AVR derived, related power amps do.

There is no bi-amp rating so if you got that from a reliable source I appreciate a link to it. They do have a "bridged" rating, that is 200 WPC for channel 3 and 4, but also required the use of the impedance selector switch.

It looks to me the MX-A5200 very likely have the same output devices as the RX-A3080 but has a larger power supply that allows it to rate it about 15-18% more powerful. We both know that is insignificant as 100% more powerful means 3 dB louder, all else being equal.

In a way, Yamaha seems more conservative with this power amp as it rated it for 4 ohms (with the use of the impedance selector) for two channels only per owner's manual (see below). I might have interpreted that wrong, and if so hopefully Gene has more details on that.

Pg. 15:
Note on the speaker impedance The unit supports the following speaker impedance.
• CH.3 A/B: 4 ohm or more (8 ohm or more when using CH.3 A and CH.3 B at the same time)
• BRIDGE connection: 8 ohm or more
• Other channels: 6 ohm or more Set the IMPEDANCE SELECTOR to the upper/lower position depending on the speakers connected to the unit.

I know you are now 100% Yamaha, but hopefully remain objective as you have always been, and check your information source for credibility.

Edit: In AH's bench test for the MX-A5000 that seems to have identical power output specs to the MX-A5200, it did manage 396 W, two channel driven, at 1% THD, but that's "dynamic power" using the The CEA-2006 burst tests. For comparison, even the non flag ship Denon AVR-X5200W, also on AH's test bench, was able to output 300 WPC at 1% THD, so the MX-A5000 did about 1.2 dB better than the mid range AVR. So I highly doubt it can do better than even 1 dB against its cousin RX-A3080 or RX-A2080 in the same tone burst test.
Where did you get max power ratings for the Yamaha amps? I don't see that on their owners manual. The MX-A5200 is likely based on the amp design of an RX-Z11 not the 3080.

Also, NEVER use the low setting on the impedance switch:
https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/impedance-selector-switch-1

The MX-A5200 in bridged mode is significantly more powerful than a 3080. The measurements I showed in bridged mode are continuous NOT CEA2006 burst.
 

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