Yamaha CX-A5200 and MX-A5200

[gene]

Ooh, you just gave me an idea.

So my point is exactly that - they are apples to oranges, not apples to apples.

Like I said to Kurt, it’s not happening anyway, but if they could somehow manage to make the MX-A5300 bridged for 450W x 5CH and not totally jack up the price, it would be apples to oranges.

But yeah, if the amp is just 150W x 11Ch, then it’s no different than an AVR-amp (apples to apples).

I guess you’re asking WHY?

Why not just get an ATI (or equivalents)?

No particular reason. Just shooting the breeze.

You basically want the $7500 Denon POA-A1HDCI for 1/3rd the price. Definitely not going to happen.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A CX-A5200+MX-A5200 is not much better than a RX-A3080, so owners of the CX-A5200 may as well go for a real power amps such as ATI's or Anthem MCA.

As I’ve said many times, especially in the other thread about AVR vs Separates, I think if you own the 3080 or similar AVRs, Chances are don’t need an external amp because the internal amp is usually more than enough to power most systems.

I would feel 100% comfortable using the A3080 AVR to power my 9 RBH speakers in my HT room.

So this isn’t about AVR vs Separates or AVR-Amps vs Separates Amps.

It’s just about the MX-A5000-series.

For my RBH SVT Towers and SXT2/R systems, even if I still owned Revel Salon2 and B&W 802D2, I would be 100% comfortable using the MX-A5000/5200 or just the A3080.

 

[PENG]

As I’ve said many times, especially in the other thread about AVR vs Separates, I think if you own the 3080 or similar AVRs, Chances are don’t need an external amp because the internal amp is usually more than enough to power most systems.

I would feel 100% comfortable using the A3080 AVR to power my 9 RBH speakers in my HT room.

So this isn’t about AVR vs Separates or AVR-Amps vs Separates Amps.

It’s just about the MX-A5000-series.

For my RBH SVT Towers and SXT2/R systems, even if I still owned Revel Salon2 and B&W 802D2, I would be 100% comfortable using the MX-A5000/5200 or just the A3080.

Being comfortable is one thing, but I can't help but doubt whether you would actually use a power amp that is less than 1 dB more powerful than an avr (SR8012) and just a touch over 1 dB more powerful than another avr (RX-A3080) to drive those audiophile class big towers. I don't doubt in practical sense you know you could, but you don't seem to be the type that would use power amp with AVR class (albeit flagship class) power capability for those speakers. We have been posting here for >10 years now right? That's how I get the impression.

Of course this is not about separates vs AVRs. It is only when you started to boost the power output of the MX-A using numbers that were not all valid, that I reminded you of something you said before about how some prepros looked to be AVR derived. That was apparently (going by memory that is fading fast..) after I posted the fact (with some links) that the internal guts or at least in terms of the weak link ICs used in some prepros and comparable avrs of the same brands were virtually the same. So then I started raising the question about whether amps such as the MX-A, may also fit the AVR derived term.

Jokes aside, the MX-A is still an excellent functional and practical multi-channel amp, and based on Gene and M Code's takes on Yamaha they (I mean even the amp) seem like an excellent choice for a lot of people for sure. And yes, owners of such a pair can proudly join the "separates" (pseudo or not..) only group.

On the other hand, one thing that really surprised me was when I found out the MX-A has only 2 X 27,000 uf 75 V of block capacitors. The slightly higher V is good, but 54,000 uf total for a 11 channel power amp looks anemic to me. That may be the reason why it didn't do better in Gene's CEA-2006 dynamic output test. Yamaha, like NAD, are known to pay more attention to the IHF dynamic output thing than others and that's more the reason why I expected better results in that test.

For comparison, the Marantz MM7055 has 2 X 33,000 uf, and the MM8077 has 2 X 50,000 uf 71 V. Even the SR8012 has 22,000 uf 81 V capacitors for the main power supply. I am disappointed that Yamaha did not use a stronger power supply for this amp, it is definitely not for me. Just look at Gene's tabulated power output, the MX-A couldn't even beat the SR8012 in the 7 channel 1 kHz sweep, in fact it would have clearly lost in that test if Gene had not accidentally used the 15 A outlet instead of his 20 A outlet.

Regardless, I do understand for die hard Yamaha fans, especially the newly converted ones, the MX-A amps are still very impressive.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

1. I can't help but doubt whether you would actually use a power amp that is less than 1 dB more powerful than an avr to drive those audiophile class big towers.

2. I do understand for die hard Yamaha fans, especially the newly converted ones, the MX-A amps are still very impressive.

1. I am actually currently using the MX-A5000 to power my 9 RBH speakers (Five are the SX-T2/R Towers) in my 22' x 26' x 15' room.

2. I am NOT "very impressed" with the current MX-A5000 series amps when compared to amps like ATI.

This thread isn't about being "very impressed" with these Yamaha amps.

IOW, if I decide to get the ATI ATP-16 pre-pro in the future, I would match that with an ATI amp, not a Yamaha MX-A5000 series amp.

The point is that the MX-A5000 series AMP look great aesthetically with the CX-A5000 series AVP.

And I would absolutely use the MX-A5000 amps to power any speakers I have owned even though I am not "very impressed" with the Yamaha amp compared to any ATI amps.

Now if you're wondering whether I would rather have the ATI combos or Yamaha combo, I would take the ATI combo in a heartbeat. But ATI does cost A LOT MORE.

So it's not about being a fanboy of Yamaha.

And nothing to do with this thread, but the fact that I will change from one brand to another brand ANYTIME when it suits my needs/desires proves that I am NOT a fanboy!

I am sure @gene feels the same way -- If the new Yamaha doesn't offer Gene exactly what he wants (SOTA),then he will get something else that is SOTA!

It is NOT about one brand!

 

[Phase 2]

1. I am actually currently using the MX-A5000 to power my 9 RBH speakers (Five are the SX-T2/R Towers) in my 22' x 26' x 15' room.

2. I am NOT "very impressed" with the current MX-A5000 series amps when compared to amps like ATI.

This thread isn't about being "very impressed" with these Yamaha amps.

IOW, if I decide to get the ATI ATP-16 pre-pro in the future, I would match that with an ATI amp, not a Yamaha MX-A5000 series amp.

The point is that the MX-A5000 series AMP look great aesthetically with the CX-A5000 series AVP.

And I would absolutely use the MX-A5000 amps to power any speakers I have owned even though I am not "very impressed" with the Yamaha amp compared to any ATI amps.

Now if you're wondering whether I would rather have the ATI combos or Yamaha combo, I would take the ATI combo in a heartbeat. But ATI does cost A LOT MORE.

So it's not about being a fanboy of Yamaha.

And nothing to do with this thread, but the fact that I will change from one brand to another brand ANYTIME when it suits my needs/desires proves that I am NOT a fanboy!

I am sure @gene is the same way. If the new Yamaha doesn't offer Gene exactly what he wants (SOTA),then he will get something else that is SOTA!

It is NOT about one brand!

Nice! Andrew, say hello to my new Avatar! He a Ninja assassin!!

 

[PENG]

Where did you get max power ratings for the Yamaha amps[? I don't see that on their owners manual.

For the MX-A5000, got it from the service manual, downloaded from:
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/yamaha/mx-a5000.shtml

Also, from the MX-A5200 Owner's manual, page 23:

https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/8/1224108/web_VAA2420_MX-A5200_om_UCTKABGLVFPS_A0.pdf

General • Power Supply [U.S.A. and Canada models]...............................................AC 120 V, 60 Hz
[Taiwan, Central and South America and Brazil models] .........................................AC 110 to 120 V, 50/60 Hz [China model]...............................................................................................................AC 220 V, 50 Hz
[Korea model]...............................................................................................................AC 220 V, 60 Hz
[Australia model]..........................................................................................................AC 240 V, 50 Hz
[U.K. , Europe and Russia models] .............................................................................AC 230 V, 50 Hz
[Asia and General model]............................................................................................AC 220 to 240 V, 50/60 Hz
• Power Consumption ................................................................................................ 650 W
• Standby Power Consumption ..................................................................................0.1 W (Typical)
• Maximum Power Consumption (All Channel driven, 10% THD)
[Taiwan, Brazil, Asia, Central and South America and General models] ..................1500 W
• Power Consumption (No Signals) ...........................................................................75 W (Typical)

The MX-A5200 is likely based on the amp design of an RX-Z11 not the 3080.

I think so too. I did check the output devices. The power transistors for the 3080 are different but are both rated 15 A (collector current). The RX-Z11 and MX-A5000 both use the same power transistor pairs, same 27,000 uf 75 V storage/block capacitors and same power consumption figures. In fact, I decided to compare the schematics of the power amps (also from service manuals) and they looked identical.

Did you guess right because of the 11 channel hint? You could have guessed the RX-Z9, that seemed to have a slightly stronger power supply, but then you would have guessed wrong.

The MX-A5200 in bridged mode is significantly more powerful than a 3080. The measurements I showed in bridged mode are continuous NOT CEA2006 burst.

I clearly understood that, in ADTG's post#169, he said:

"I don’t think there’s ever been an AVR-derived amp that can output 500W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 1% THD."

That's the one I countered to, that it would have been CEA2006 burst for it to reach 500 W 2 channel driven into 4 ohms at 1% THD. It was my assumption but I did ask him for a link to his source.

As for the bridged output beating the 3080 significantly, my point is simply that it is not a fair comparison. It is a case of one being bridgeable while the other is not. It's sort of two against one when compared bridged to a single channel.

 

[PENG]

And nothing to do with this thread, but the fact that I will change from one brand to another brand ANYTIME when it suits my needs/desires proves that I am NOT a fanboy!

I am sure @gene feels the same way -- If the new Yamaha doesn't offer Gene exactly what he wants (SOTA),then he will get something else that is SOTA!

It is NOT about one brand!

You know I don't normally tease much, sorry for making an exception in this case. Of course I know you are not a fanboy of Yamaha or any brand, that's the truth! I did say you were the objective type right?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

in ADTG's post#169, he said:
"I don’t think there’s ever been an AVR-derived amp that can output 500W x 2Ch into 4 ohms @ 1% THD."

Gene actually measured 444 Watts x 2CH 4-ohms, not 500W. I looked at it wrong the first time.

 

[Phase 2]

We all like our gear, some like me and others recommend what works for us and what we like. But by no means am I a fan boy of anyone brand. Onkyo has updated their HDMI boards and their chip. I just may give their new RZ840 a try out. 3 year warranty do like the looks of it. Or may pick up a refurb on A4L again Yamaha A1070 looks promising at 599 with free shipping and 18 months warranty. Denon on A4L 3500 looks like a good pick up. Marantz has some nice units at very good prices also, love the variety they have. If I had the money I take the gloves off have all McIntosh gear! or Pass Lab..

 

[PENG]

Gene actually measured 444 Watts x 2CH 4-ohms, not 500W. I looked at it wrong the first time.

This thread is getting a little too long, to the point we might have forgotten many of the things said/discussed/argued before.. I quickly re-read the older posts to avoid recycling....

Also, in reading Gene's posts again, it does seem clear he in fact used a 4 ohm load for one of his bridged test. That is amazing, as far as I can remember, very few what I consider real non AVR related amps can drive 4 ohm speakers in bridged mode. The little Benchmark amp is among the few, and I can hardly think of another one at relatively affordable prices. Not Anthem, Bryston, Parasound, NAD's, some of those amps are bridgeable, but they usually come with a warning that you should not connect the bridged amp to speakers with nominal impedance below 8 ohms. As for the ATI amps, I don't think they are even bridgeable, not officially anyway right?

Edit: I thought I should repeat what I posted in post#171, that in Yamaha has the same kind of minimum impedance requirements as per owner's manual.

Page 15:

The unit supports the following speaker impedance.
• CH.3 A/B: 4 ohm or more (8 ohm or more when using CH.3 A and CH.3 B at the same time)
• BRIDGE connection: 8 ohm or more
• Other channels: 6 ohm or more
Set the IMPEDANCE SELECTOR to the upper/lower position depending on the speakers connected to the unit.

Like I said before, any amps can theoretically drive 2 ohm or even 1 ohm speakers as long as the protection system allows it and the volume is turned down enough. The same goes for bridging, one can technically ignore the 8 ohm requirement, and can get away with it as long as the volume is turned low enough and it does not trigger the protection system. Don't do it though unless you know what you are doing and are willing to void the warranty.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Also, in reading Gene's posts again, it does seem clear he in fact used a 4 ohm load for one of his bridged test. That is amazing, as far as I can remember, very few what I consider real non AVR related amps can drive 4 ohm speakers in bridged mode. The little Benchmark amp is among the few, and I can hardly think of another one at relatively affordable prices. Not Anthem, Bryston, Parasound, NAD's, some of those amps are bridgeable, but they usually come with a warning that you should not connect the bridged amp to speakers with nominal impedance below 8 ohms. As for the ATI amps, I don't think they are even bridgeable, not officially anyway right?

I'm glad you pointed out that 4-ohm speakers can be connected to the MX-A5200 Bridged Mode, which is capable of 444 Watts x 2 CH.

I don't think any ATI amps can be bridged either.

Now if Yamaha could just make the MX-A5300 444W x 5CH Bridged into 4 ohm @ 1% THD (with 4-ohm Load--not 8-ohm load) and not jack up the price to $7K.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Like I said before, any amps can theoretically drive even 1 ohm speakers as long as the protection system allows it and the volume is turned down enough. The same goes for bridging, one can technically ignore the 8 ohm requirement, and can get away with it as long as the volume is turned low enough and it does not trigger the protection system.

That's an excellent take away message right there!

If we were in Physics class and the professor said that, all the guys in the room would be very interested.

That's the difference between the University of Google vs a real University!

 

[gene]

As I’ve said many times, especially in the other thread about AVR vs Separates, I think if you own the 3080 or similar AVRs, Chances are don’t need an external amp because the internal amp is usually more than enough to power most systems.

I would feel 100% comfortable using the A3080 AVR to power my 9 RBH speakers in my HT room.

So this isn’t about AVR vs Separates or AVR-Amps vs Separates Amps.

It’s just about the MX-A5000-series.

For my RBH SVT Towers and SXT2/R systems, even if I still owned Revel Salon2 and B&W 802D2, I would be 100% comfortable using the MX-A5000/5200 or just the A3080.

I would NOT use any of the amplifiers you mention in this most to power the bass sections of the RBH T system. That would be way too taxing on the power supply and a dedicated amp offers far better control and dynamics. I tried using the Denon POA-A1HDCI amplifier in bridged mode to power my Status 8T towers and it just didn't sound as controlled or clean as when I used a Classe CT-2300 amplifier or the Emotiva XPR-1s.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would NOT use any of the amplifiers you mention in this most to power the bass sections of the RBH T system. That would be way too taxing on the power supply and a dedicated amp offers far better control and dynamics. I tried using the Denon POA-A1HDCI amplifier in bridged mode to power my Status 8T towers and it just didn't sound as controlled or clean as when I used a Classe CT-2300 amplifier or the Emotiva XPR-1s.

Yeah, I use the MX-A5000 to power the top section of the RBH T system.

In my living room, I currently use the Denon AVR-5308CI to power the top section of the SVT Tower system. The bottom sections are powered by the RBH SA-500DSP amp.

 

[gene]

This thread is getting a little too long, to the point we might have forgotten many of the things said/discussed/argued before.. I quickly re-read the older posts to avoid recycling....

Also, in reading Gene's posts again, it does seem clear he in fact used a 4 ohm load for one of his bridged test. That is amazing, as far as I can remember, very few what I consider real non AVR related amps can drive 4 ohm speakers in bridged mode. The little Benchmark amp is among the few, and I can hardly think of another one at relatively affordable prices. Not Anthem, Bryston, Parasound, NAD's, some of those amps are bridgeable, but they usually come with a warning that you should not connect the bridged amp to speakers with nominal impedance below 8 ohms. As for the ATI amps, I don't think they are even bridgeable, not officially anyway right?

Edit: I thought I should repeat what I posted in post#171, that in Yamaha has the same kind of minimum impedance requirements as per owner's manual.

Page 15:

The unit supports the following speaker impedance.
• CH.3 A/B: 4 ohm or more (8 ohm or more when using CH.3 A and CH.3 B at the same time)
• BRIDGE connection: 8 ohm or more
• Other channels: 6 ohm or more
Set the IMPEDANCE SELECTOR to the upper/lower position depending on the speakers connected to the unit.

Like I said before, any amps can theoretically drive 2 ohm or even 1 ohm speakers as long as the protection system allows it and the volume is turned down enough. The same goes for bridging, one can technically ignore the 8 ohm requirement, and can get away with it as long as the volume is turned low enough and it does not trigger the protection system. Don't do it though unless you know what you are doing and are willing to void the warranty.

Most bridgeable amplifiers come with a warning like this. Remember, each amp now sees half the load impedance that it would in a single amp connection. I think this is mostly done as a precaution and probably to still maintain heat dissipation requirements for UL. I hit the 5200 into 4 ohm loads pretty hard and didn't have a problem with running sustained power. If it overheats, it will shut off long before damage is done since Yamaha employs a lot of nanny control on their products.

 

[gene]

Yeah, I use the MX-A5000 to power the top section of the RBH T system.

In my living room, I currently use the Denon AVR-5308CI to power the top section of the SVT Tower system. The bottom sections are powered by the RBH SA-500DSP amp.

Yea the top sections of the RBH speakers are an easy load for a good AVR to power. The bass sections need a good meaty amp though.

 

[M Code]

Yes... Bridgeing an amplifier can deliver a significantly higher power output but...

• Load impedance seen by the bridged amplifier is decreased
• Power output will be limited by power supply voltage/current capability and protection circuit settings
• When bridged some amplifiers can actually have less THD%, it seems likes bridging may cancel some harmonics..
• Damping factor is decreased
• Now all loudspeaker output terminals(-,+) are above ground so caution is required if connecting to other components such as external loudspeaker switchers..

Just my $0.02...

 

[PENG]

Yes... Bridgeing an amplifier can deliver a significantly higher power output but...

• Load impedance seen by the bridged amplifier is decreased

Pretty sure I know what you mean, but the way @gene stated in post#195 is clearer, more electrically correct, and won't inadvertently confuse the issue. Note he stated "each amp now sees half the load impedance that it would in a single amp connection." I highlighted "each", that's the key word, making it clear the bridged amp, that can be interpreted as the two amps wired in series, still see the same impedance, but each of the two amps sees half of it.

My preference is to avoid the "half" altogether. I would just call a spade a spade, that the impedance of the same load obviously does not change whether you drive it with one amp or two amps in series. It is the voltage output that increases 2X by wiring two amps in series, so the current flow in the same load will also increase two fold accordingly, we all know what Ohm's law is about, right? Nothing much wrong either way, I am just having fun splitting hair to keep me awake, on a super hot and humid day.

 

[PENG]

Yeah, I use the MX-A5000 to power the top section of the RBH T system.

In my living room, I currently use the Denon AVR-5308CI to power the top section of the SVT Tower system. The bottom sections are powered by the RBH SA-500DSP amp.

Haha, the truth, or more of it finally come out, now you are talking..

 

[gene]

Pretty sure I know what you mean, but the way @gene stated in post#195 is clearer, more electrically correct, and won't inadvertently confuse the issue. Note he stated "each amp now sees half the load impedance that it would in a single amp connection." I highlighted "each", that's the key word, making it clear the bridged amp, that can be interpreted as the two amps wired in series, still see the same impedance, but each of the two amps sees half of it.

My preference is to avoid the "half" altogether. I would just call a spade a spade, that the impedance of the same load obviously does not change whether you drive it with one amp or two amps in series. It is the voltage output that increases 2X by wiring two amps in series, so the current flow in the same load will also increase two fold accordingly, we all know what Ohm's law is about, right? Nothing much wrong either way, I am just having fun splitting hair to keep me awake, on a super hot and humid day.

Actual in theory, doubling the voltage would increase power 4X. However, that never happens due to power supply limitations. The MX-A5200, as well as other bridgeable amplifiers I've measured, typically switch to a lower voltage tap of the transformer when in bridged mode to prevent this.

This is an Achilles heal to the MX-A5200 NOT found on the POA-A1HDCI. If you bridge 1 amp in the 5200, the other bridgeable amp sees a significant reduction in power because it's getting voltage from the lower tap as well. The Denon POA-A1hdci kept these channels all independent. A true masterpiece. Why did I sell it?