Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[KEW]

True, but despite @KEW having control over which speaker I listened to, it was still MY ears that preferred the sound of one unknown speaker over the others (I think this test had 3 unique speakers).

I think I knew the T1R (KEW's has the ScanSpeak Revelators) was being used, but to KEW's point, when you eliminate the dominating sight that the T1 is, its sound is no more enveloping than some quality bookshelf speakers, like the Canton.

You are right that there were 3 speakers in play. I don't remember what the third was, and it wasn't relevant to the intent of the post, so did not mention it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

MY ears that preferred the sound of one unknown speaker over the others (I think this test had 3 unique speakers).

Well, I don't want to talk too much about speakers in this thread about D/M vs Yamaha vs Anthem.

But my point is, when I had all those speakers (Salon2, 802D2, KEF, Phil3, Orion 3.2.1, 201/2, TAD, ATC, Focal, Dynaudio, etc.),the way I "eliminated the bass from the equation" was to set all speakers to Small, XO = 100Hz, and used dual Subwoofers for all speakers.

That way I was comparing only the tweeter and midrange. The bass was covered by the dual subs.

Anyway, back when I had all those speakers and did my own "single-blind testings", the results were all over creation.

Everyone picked a different speaker as their favorite every single time. Some picked the B&W 802D2, some picked Salon2, some Orion, etc.

But it was still interesting.

Yeah, I see the point about size of the speakers and audible sound perception - trust your ears, but with as much bias removed as possible.

 

[PENG]

I prefer to rely on specs and measurements because in my experience, going by ears will have the following inherent issues.

- Highly subjective, in fact once you get close to the point of diminishing return in terms of specs/measurements, it will be a totally subjective thing to say one speakers sound better than the other.

- The room and seating positions have major effects, you may prefer one speaker in a dealer's room/setup but another in your own.

- The source media, and other electronics in the signal path may expose the negatives more effectively and efficiently of certain speakers. The latter can be obviously be mitigate if the AB tests are set up properly and the electronics are carefully selected, but the former cannot..

- The individual's mood, how he/she feel at the time, you may laugh, but I know am not the only one who has such experience.

- Lastly, as KEW and TheWarrior have found out, eyes could, and often overrule the ears. It would be nice to use a turntable to make sure the SPKRUT are in the exact some spot/elevation and all comparisons are done in DBT, but that's not a practical solution for most of us.

Another recent example, @ryanosaur, who I have great respect for his open mindedness, managed to get to the "fatigue" point listening to the R900, yet to me that would be something that I am almost comfortable to consider that an impossibility, unless the speaker he listened to, or something else was defective. Some of you may recall I was the only one reported hearing distortions in every Adele's recordings I have heard, CD, digital files, BR disc included, and that the distortions was heard only when her voice ramp up towards the end of a verse. So yes, I know what "fatigue" from speakers, tweeters anyway, is like regardless of any hearing loss I must have.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I prefer to rely on specs and measurements because in my experience, going by ears will have the following inherent issues.

- Highly subjective, in fact once you get close to the point of diminishing return in terms of specs/measurements, it will be a totally subjective thing to say one speakers sound better than the other.

- The room and seating positions have major effects, you may prefer one speaker in a dealer's room/setup but another in your own.

- The source media, and other electronics in the signal path may expose the negatives more effectively and efficiently of certain speakers. The latter can be obviously be mitigate if the AB tests are set up properly and the electronics are carefully selected, but the former cannot..

- The individual's mood, how he/she feel at the time, you may laugh, but I know am not the only one who has such experience.

- Lastly, as KEW and TheWarrior have found out, eyes could, and often overrule the ears. It would be nice to use a turntable to make sure the SPKRUT are in the exact some spot/elevation and all comparisons are done in DBT, but that's not a practical solution for most of us.

Another recent example, @ryanosaur, who I have great respect for his open mindedness, managed to get to the "fatigue" point listening to the R900, yet to me that would be something that I am almost comfortable to consider that an impossibility, unless the speaker he listened to, or something else was defective. Some of you may recall I was the only one reported hearing distortions in every Adele's recordings I have heard, CD, digital files, BR disc included, and that the distortions was heard only when her voice ramp up towards the end of a verse. So yes, I know what "fatigue" from speakers, tweeters anyway, is like regardless of any hearing loss I must have.

One of these days you will get me to buy that UMIK1 and do REW.

 

[PENG]

One of these days you will get me to buy that UMIK1 and do REW.

If you use it for FR, waterfalls and some basic stuff, there is no learning curve for someone like you. So it is a $75 investment, that's it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you use it for FR, waterfalls and some basic stuff, there is not learning curve for someone like you. So it is a $75 investment, that's it.

Resistance is futile, huh?

Question of When, not If.

 

[PENG]

Resistance is futile, huh?

Question of When, not If.

No offense, I mentioned learning curve only because I assume you are a super busy guy. REW works on both Mac OS and Windows 10. Dip below 2 ohm yet?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No offense, I mentioned learning curve only because I assume you are a super busy guy. REW works on both Mac OS and Windows 10. Dip below 2 ohm yet?

No offense at all.

There are some things I am 100% diligent with or willing to do, and then there are things I am 0% diligent with or willing to do.

But the more I see you and others post graphs and talk about REW+UMIK1, the more I want to do it.

I do have over $100 Amazon rewards points.

So

1. Install REW software into PC that is connected to AVP via HDMI
2. Connect UMIK1 to PC via USB
3. Apply the Correction file for UMIK1
4. Enter all the REW settings (this would be the part that requires some reading unless every setting is by DEFAULT except for some labeling parts?)
5. Hit the Measure button

 

[Andrein]

No offense at all.

There are some things I am 100% diligent with or willing to do, and then there are things I am 0% diligent with or willing to do.

But the more I see you and others post graphs and talk about REW+UMIK1, the more I want to do it.

I do have over $100 Amazon rewards points.

So

1. Install REW software into PC that is connected to AVP via HDMI
2. Connect UMIK1 to PC via USB
3. Enter all the REW settings (this would be the part that requires some reading unless every setting is by DEFAULT except for some labeling parts?)
4. Hit the Measure button

I guess if your system sounds good already it will not sound much better after running rew. It will just satisfy curiocity.

 

[sakete]

Honestly, if I was buying today, I would get a refurbished 3300 for $400 or 3400 for $450 from A4L. I've looked at the 3500 and (for my needs) just don't see any features added that would justify paying 33% more for the 3500.
If there is a feature you gotta have on the 3500, then never-mind my post, but right now, I consider pre-amp outputs and XT32 with the D & M Audyssey app to be the most important features (I am assuming reasonable amp section is a given on any AVR that I would look at ... I want the option to use external amps for the mains and have solid power left for the surrounds). For me, I have an interest in the Alexa enabled aspect of the 3400, so would pay the extra $50 for the 3400 over the 3300.

But be assured that you are not likely to regret either of your current choices (Denon or Yamaha) in the models you are looking at!

I see the 3500 is now down to $550 with a 3 year warranty, that starts to close the gap. The question is whether a 3 year warranty (vs 1 year) is worth $100! It is not for me because I have had enough AVRs to believe they will either go bad in the first months or they are good for the long haul, but that depends on how badly it would impact your budget if the worst happened and you had to replace it unexpectedly.

Thanks, that's not a bad idea to look at the 3300/3400 (don't care at all about Alexa).

How stable otherwise are Denons in day to day use compared to Yamahas? I keep hearing that Yamahas are overall more problem free than Denons. One person mentioned that on his Denon (very anecdotal, I know) he has a 5 second delay anytime he changes a setting, needs to often reset his Denon, etc.

 

[Phase 2]

No offense at all.

There are some things I am 100% diligent with or willing to do, and then there are things I am 0% diligent with or willing to do.

But the more I see you and others post graphs and talk about REW+UMIK1, the more I want to do it.

I do have over $100 Amazon rewards points.

So

1. Install REW software into PC that is connected to AVP via HDMI
2. Connect UMIK1 to PC via USB
3. Apply the Correction file for UMIK1
4. Enter all the REW settings (this would be the part that requires some reading unless every setting is by DEFAULT except for some labeling parts?)
5. Hit the Measure button

You a Jedi...PENG a Overlord! ...Gene gotta be Master Yoda! . Just messing with you Guys.

 

[KEW]

Thanks, that's not a bad idea to look at the 3300/3400 (don't care at all about Alexa).

How stable otherwise are Denons in day to day use compared to Yamahas? I keep hearing that Yamahas are overall more problem free than Denons. One person mentioned that on his Denon (very anecdotal, I know) he has a 5 second delay anytime he changes a setting, needs to often reset his Denon, etc.

I'm really not sure how to respond to that. I have had no problems with delays, but they are there.
Here is my specific data for a sampling of adjustments:
Denon AVR-X4400H
1) Increase/decrease sub level - happens in real time, no delay, no pop (I turned it up in extreme to make sure it was actuating as there is no click or any indication other than the change in the sub level). This is ideal as it allows you to adjust to your preference without interruption.
2) Use of Graphic EQ - same as above - happens seamlessly as you do it (just like turning a bass or treble knob on a vintage unit).
3) Changing the crossover frequency - the sound drops out for about 2.6 seconds.
4) Switching bass from "LFE+Main" to "LFE" is exactly the same as above - about 2.6 second delay.

Hoping @PENG can enlighten us on this, but I am inclined to believe that any change in the digital domain will probably take the ~2.6 seconds, and any analog change will happen in real time.

For me, once you have the interruption from the music dropping out, the difference between, say, 2 and 3 seconds is inconsequential. I guess 5 seconds might start to seem too slow, but these are not changes I make very often at all.

I can imagine that the lower level Denons might perform the same task using a slower processor, resulting in a slower response time; however, I would not expect the 3300 to be much slower if at all - Denon may spec a different processor for their least expensive units, but it surely makes no sense to buy and inventory 12 different levels of processors for 12 different AVR's (or however many Denon sells).

If I am right on this, that may be another reason that Marantz and Denon stick with the Graphic EQ - you can listen as you adjust it in real time! Perhaps someone with a PEQ Yamaha can test this!

Personally it seems PEQ without REW is essentially too many adjustments to control without a good source of information (as REW would provide) as to how to adjust it.
To get specific (as I understand it - and I know I can count on being corrected if I am mistaken) for the PEQ you have to pick the exact frequency that you want an adjustment centered on, then you select how wide of a bandwidth (q) you want the adjustment to effect, then you select the amount of increase/decrease.
Since we don't hear or think of pitch in terms of hertz, deciding the frequency for adjustment is pretty much a trial and error proposition unless you have a FR measurement to use as your guide and can verify with another FR after the adjustment.
OTOH, I'm sure that the Yamahas that have PEQ probably have a default set of frequencies and default bandwidth (or q) such that you adjust it like a GEQ until you decide to get into the more advanced settings!

 

[PENG]

No offense at all.

There are some things I am 100% diligent with or willing to do, and then there are things I am 0% diligent with or willing to do.

But the more I see you and others post graphs and talk about REW+UMIK1, the more I want to do it.

I do have over $100 Amazon rewards points.

So

1. Install REW software into PC that is connected to AVP via HDMI
2. Connect UMIK1 to PC via USB
3. Apply the Correction file for UMIK1
4. Enter all the REW settings (this would be the part that requires some reading unless every setting is by DEFAULT except for some labeling parts?)
5. Hit the Measure button

You got it! For settings, I can send you a screenshot to save you time reading the help screens, but you can also ask Shady who obviously is a pro.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You got it! For settings, I can send you a screenshot to save you time reading the help screens, but you can also ask Shady who obviously is a pro.

Yeah, send me a screenshot or post it on the forum. Anything to make it more plug-n-play - like running Audyssey or YPAO. Plug in the Mic and hit the remote button.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm really not sure how to respond to that. I have had no problems with delays, but they are there.
Here is my specific data for a sampling of adjustments:
Denon AVR-X4400H
1) Increase/decrease sub level - happens in real time, no delay, no pop (I turned it up in extreme to make sure it was actuating as there is no click or any indication other than the change in the sub level). This is ideal as it allows you to adjust to your preference without interruption.
2) Use of Graphic EQ - same as above - happens seamlessly as you do it (just like turning a bass or treble knob on a vintage unit).
3) Changing the crossover frequency - the sound drops out for about 2.6 seconds.
4) Switching bass from "LFE+Main" to "LFE" is exactly the same as above - about 2.6 second delay.

Hoping @PENG can enlighten us on this, but I am inclined to believe that any change in the digital domain will probably take the ~2.6 seconds, and any analog change will happen in real time.

For me, once you have the interruption from the music dropping out, the difference between, say, 2 and 3 seconds is inconsequential. I guess 5 seconds might start to seem too slow, but these are not changes I make very often at all.

I can imagine that the lower level Denons might perform the same task using a slower processor, resulting in a slower response time; however, I would not expect the 3300 to be much slower if at all - Denon may spec a different processor for their least expensive units, but it surely makes no sense to buy and inventory 12 different levels of processors for 12 different AVR's (or however many Denon sells).

If I am right on this, that may be another reason that Marantz and Denon stick with the Graphic EQ - you can listen as you adjust it in real time! Perhaps someone with a PEQ Yamaha can test this!

Personally it seems PEQ without REW is essentially too many adjustments to control without a good source of information (as REW would provide) as to how to adjust it.
To get specific (as I understand it - and I know I can count on being corrected if I am mistaken) for the PEQ you have to pick the exact frequency that you want an adjustment centered on, then you select how wide of a bandwidth (q) you want the adjustment to effect, then you select the amount of increase/decrease.
Since we don't hear or think of pitch in terms of hertz, deciding the frequency for adjustment is pretty much a trial and error proposition unless you have a FR measurement to use as your guide and can verify with another FR after the adjustment.
OTOH, I'm sure that the Yamahas that have PEQ probably have a default set of frequencies and default bandwidth (or q) such that you adjust it like a GEQ until you decide to get into the more advanced settings!

Yeah, no way I would use PEQ or any GEQ to adjust the whole 20Hz-20kHz unless I use REW.

So right now, until I use REW+UMIK1, I only use the PEQ to adjust mainly 30Hz-80Hz for personal bass preference. I would not dare mess with anything even above 80Hz unless I use REW.

 

[KEW]

Thanks, that's not a bad idea to look at the 3300/3400 (don't care at all about Alexa).

How stable otherwise are Denons in day to day use compared to Yamahas? I keep hearing that Yamahas are overall more problem free than Denons. One person mentioned that on his Denon (very anecdotal, I know) he has a 5 second delay anytime he changes a setting, needs to often reset his Denon, etc.

I have had some problems with HDMI dropping out and needing to reset; however, after reading a bit here, I changed to certified HDMI cables and things have been smooth running!

PS - I may seem like a hypocrite recommending the 3400 when I have the 4400 in my living room setup. However, I actually got a 3400 from A4L last week to use in a bedroom setup. I haven't had the chance to hook it up yet.

 

[Ken32]

Yeah, no way I would use PEQ or any GEQ to adjust the whole 20Hz-20kHz unless I use REW.

So right now, until I use REW+UMIK1, I only use the PEQ to adjust mainly 30Hz-80Hz for personal bass preference. I would not dare mess with anything even above 80Hz unless I use REW.

Might i ask why?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Might i ask why?

I don’t trust myself.

Remember, some audio experts believe that we should not EQ anything above 200Hz.

However, I think if you can get your system to sound better with EQ above 200Hz (manual or auto), then that’s great. The end game is to HEAR better sound whether we can SEE the REW graphs or not.

 

[PENG]

The end game is to HEAR better sound whether we can SEE the REW graphs or not.

That's the end game. The graphs can help you fine tune your EQ parameters to get as close as possible to the target curve, that is flat for Audyssey, and with a ramp up towards the low end for Anthem ARC. That, to me, would establish a known baseline (or multiple baselines that can be saved if the user prefers), from there, it is up to the user to start tweaking by ear but if things get messed up, the base line is there to go back to if the user wants to have a clean start for further tweaking. In a different way, the baseline is like the factory default, do what you want, but can always go back to the beginning. Does Yamaha allow multiple manual PEQ settings to be saved and recalled? It would be a good feature for the manual approach.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's the end game. The graphs can help you fine tune your EQ parameters to get as close as possible to the target curve, that is flat for Audyssey, and with a ramp up towards the low end for Anthem ARC. That, to me, would establish a known baseline (or multiple baselines that can be saved if the user prefers), from there, it is up to the user to start tweaking by ear but if things get messed up, the base line is there to go back to if the user wants to have a clean start for further tweaking. In a different way, the baseline is like the factory default, do what you want, but can always go back to the beginning. Does Yamaha allow multiple manual PEQ settings to be saved and recalled? It would be a good feature for the manual approach.

Yes, Yamaha does allow you to save your PEQ settings, at least up to 2 different settings. I can't remember if they allow you to save more than 2 settings.