Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[PENG]

I prefer my HT room to be dark and cool when I'm watching a movie.

Me too, but the builder did use large enough return air duct so the AC has hard time cooing it during the sun set hours. It is already better since I replaced the Elite Plasma with a sony.

 

[KEW]

BTW, that's the picture of the SX-T1, not the SX-T1/R.

The difference would have been noticed if you were comparing in a much bigger room, farther distance, and much higher volume (THX Reference).

As for "blind testing", your attempt is better than nothing, but it's not double-blind.

You preferred the Canton tweeter before any testing.

Everyone "knew" the Canton had more bass because it is ported.

So it's not really "blind" because anyone could tell the Canton had more bass.

I realized that it wasn't the T1/R's, but for the purpose of presenting the massive nature of the speaker to readers, I just Googled the T1's as they are the same cabinets with the same size drivers!

Uh, nothing I did was blind! It was Alex aka "TheWarrior" who listened blind! He did not even know I had the T1/R's, and, while he did know I own the Cantons, he had no clue that they were the speaker I would be comparing. He is aware that I have many speakers that I constantly rotate through. The juxtaposition of the size (my largest speaker vs essentially my smallest speaker) was not deliberate, but it was informative. A true double-blind is very difficult to pull off. However, I made it a point not to say anything while he was listening!

I totally agree that in a larger venue, the Cantons would choke while the RBH were still going strong!

My post is about the effect of visual expectation on listening perception. I bolded portions of my text to try to make that more clear.

 

[snakeeyes]

I'm with Peng on this, but would word it differently:
"I trust my ears, but only when I am blind of what I am listening to"

I think most here are familiar with the McGurk effect where even after you know what the sound is you still hear it wrong because your eyes over-ride your ears! But for anyone who doesn't, here is a fun video demonstration:

My personal audio experience of this (vision over-riding hearing) happened when I got my RBH T1/R's!
These speakers are a whopping 13" W x 30-5/16" H x 19-1/2" D with 4 mid-woofers and 3 tweeters (the top half of the T2 towers):

At the time I had a pair of Canton Ventos 820.2's set up. These are 7.7'' x 11.8'' x 11'' (close to the same size as the A. Jones Pioneer BS-22 bookshelf speakers):

I was really enjoying the expansive enveloping sound-stage of the T1/R's! They fill a room like nobody's business! Dynamics to die for!

@TheWarrior was coming over for a visit and I had the comparison set up (level matched instant switching),so I blind-folded him at the door and led him to the LP to do the comparison.
He liked the Canton better, which is not such a surprise, as:
1) the Cantons have one of the best tweeters I have ever head and I knew the soft-dome ScanSpeak in the T1 was not as pristine as the "ceramic" tweeter of the Canton (RBH has since stopped using soft-domes in their best speakers),and
2) The T1's are sealed speakers, rated 50Hz-20kHz (±3dB) and really intended for use with their sub-module (or equivalent)! The Vento is ported and rated down to 32Hz (no +/- dB specified),and it puts out more bass!

Just before he removed the blind-fold to see what speakers he had been listening to I asked him if he got any sense of scale among the speakers, and he said "absolutely none!".

This totally shocked me! I had been listening to them for over a week and "knew" how the T1's effortlessly filled the room with immersive, enveloping sound!
I had to admit that that was all an artifact of vision! The T1's are visually imposing and dominate any normal room in a "take no prisoners" kind of way! It was that, and not the actual SQ that caused me to perceive such a enveloping sound stage!

So, I am astutely aware of how expectation bias can influence hearing perception!

I was 100% certain of what I was hearing and knew it would be totally obvious to anyone who took 10 seconds to listen to them! However, when confronted with someone who had listened for almost 2 hours to a wide array of music saying they perceived no difference in sense of scale between the two speakers, it was an experience with profound implications!

Nice pictures! I really enjoy my Ventos too.

 

[KEW]

If you can hear that one speaker has more bass and one has less bass, that will factor into the "blind" comparison.

Bias (in the form of more bass) has been introduced.

Remove the bass from the equation and see how the tweeter and midrange compares.

Unless the point is that the Canton has more bass?

The speakers are what they are. How would you have me remove the bass from the equation?
My point for making the statement about how much bass they had was to make it clear that the T1's were never intended to be a "stand alone" speaker, and thus the fact that the Canton has more bass is not really a fair criticism of the T1/R.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I totally agree that in a larger venue, the Cantons would choke while the RBH were still going strong!

My post is about the effect of visual expectation on listening perception. I bolded portions of my text to try to make that more clear.

I see your point.

In most typical situations, people won't notice the difference in dynamics between a much bigger speaker vs smaller speaker until it reaches a certain level (volume, distance, compression level of contents).

 

[KEW]

I see your point.

In most typical situations, people won't notice the difference in dynamics between a much bigger speaker vs smaller speaker until it reaches a certain level (volume, distance, compression level of contents).

Yeah, I set up the level matched volume at a level that I knew from experience that TheWarrior would be comfortable with - loud, but by no means really cranking it!

I think @snakeeyes uses his Cantons in the perfect application for them - in a bedroom system paired with a Rythmik subwoofer. They do fine in my day to day use, but I believe the RBH (paired to dual Outlaw X13 Ultra's) will end up being my final "go to" for HT in the living room ... if I ever decide to decide a final solution.
As for the treble of the T1/R, I find that simply raising the graphic EQ at 18,000 by 1.5dB, I am completely happy with it. That is a rather strange thing because 1.5dB is a modest adjustment and I know I cannot hear 15kHz and above, but I assume bandwidth/roll-off of the EQ is gentle enough to influence the frequencies I can hear because it makes the difference!

 

[ryanosaur]

because 1.5dB is a modest adjustment

I agree with this! I did the same while experimenting with the BMRs in my room, though I did a very gentle and shallow rebuild of the Audyssey Mid-Range Compensation in my GEQ. I think it was -1.5dB right at 2K, and -1at the next points both above and below. That delicate attenuation was all that was needed to tame the liveliness in my room and allowed me to listen for hours without even a hint of fatigue.

 

[KEW]

I agree with this! I did the same while experimenting with the BMRs in my room, though I did a very gentle and shallow rebuild of the Audyssey Mid-Range Compensation in my GEQ. I think it was -1.5dB right at 2K, and -1at the next points both above and below. That delicate attenuation was all that was needed to tame the liveliness in my room and allowed me to listen for hours without even a hint of fatigue.

Yeah, LOL, but I'm adjusting a frequency outside of my hearing'sfrequency range!
Of course octave wise 14000Hz to 18000Hz is a pretty small difference in pitch, I'm guessing around 3 whole steps!

 

[Pogre]

By the way, did you notice what I have been noticing that it seems recently most posters who asked about what amps to match to, add to their avr, or just upgrade to, own klipsch speakers (not the audiophile models but mostly models typically found in BB etc.)? I would love to see their anechoic on/off axis FR as well as THD, impedance/phase angle etc. @shadyJ seems to think they are good so may be he has seen graphs.

It didn't register until you pointed it out, but yeah! I have noticed that!

 

[sakete]

So I know I've asked this before. I've picked my speakers and they will be the Revel F36. Demoed them back to back with the F206 in the same room and to my ears the difference between the two wasn't worth an extra $1.5k in MSRP. Differences were quite subtle, but they otherwise have the same tonality / timbre. F206 probably has slightly tighter bass, is a true 3 way vs. 2.5 way on the F36, but in the end they sounded mostly the same and I'll be very happy with the F36.

So now I've narrowed down my receivers to the Yamaha A1070 and Denon X3500. Which is on balance the better pick (willing to go the REW route to get good room correction below ~300hz, but like that with Audyssey you can just do it through an app. YPAO doesn't allow limiting freq range as far as I know).

I will someday add a sub for a 2.1 system, but not right away.

 

[ryanosaur]

So I know I've asked this before. I've picked my speakers and they will be the Revel F36. Demoed them back to back with the F206 in the same room and to my ears the difference between the two wasn't worth an extra $1.5k in MSRP. Differences were quite subtle, but they otherwise have the same tonality / timbre. F206 probably has slightly tighter bass, is a true 3 way vs. 2.5 way on the F36, but in the end they sounded mostly the same and I'll be very happy with the F36.

So now I've narrowed down my receivers to the Yamaha A1070 and Denon X3500. Which is on balance the better pick (willing to go the REW route to get good room correction below ~300hz, but like that with Audyssey you can just do it through an app. YPAO doesn't allow limiting freq range as far as I know).

I will someday add a sub for a 2.1 system, but not right away.

All I will say at this point is to keep your eyes open for the sales coming up. Peng just mentioned some of the 2018/2019 class of Denon/Marantz going on sale in Canada. worth exploring if you can step up by one grade of receiver IMO.

 

[sakete]

All I will say at this point is to keep your eyes open for the sales coming up. Peng just mentioned some of the 2018/2019 class of Denon/Marantz going on sale in Canada. worth exploring if you can step up by one grade of receiver IMO.

Oh I was planning on getting at A4L (refurbished), where they are currently around US $600. Will the sales be that great then?

 

[ryanosaur]

Oh I was planning on getting at A4L (refurbished), where they are currently around US $600. Will the sales be that great then?

Depends on how fast you plan to move. By the end of the month, the cut-out prices will be showing, if not already. I was budgeting for the 5012 new, and the 6012 was on cut-out sale for less. I bought mine at 900 new last year in July.

 

[sakete]

Depends on how fast you plan to move. By the end of the month, the cut-out prices will be showing, if not already. I was budgeting for the 5012 new, and the 6012 was on cut-out sale for less. I bought mine at 900 new last year in July.

But you think the likes of the X3500 will be discounted as deep as $600, new? I can probably wait till end of the month.

 

[ryanosaur]

I don't recall what Peng said he saw on Amazon.CA. Just stating what happened last year, dig?

 

[sakete]

I don't recall what Peng said he saw on Amazon.CA. Just stating what happened last year, dig?

I dig

 

[XTex]

But you think the likes of the X3500 will be discounted as deep as $600, new? I can probably wait till end of the month.

It was $600 new at Best Buy last week, $700 right now, and has been as low as $500 shipped from Fry's.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As for the treble of the T1/R, I find that simply raising the graphic EQ at 18,000 by 1.5dB, I am completely happy with it. That is a rather strange thing because 1.5dB is a modest adjustment and I know I cannot hear 15kHz and above, but I assume bandwidth/roll-off of the EQ is gentle enough to influence the frequencies I can hear because it makes the difference!

Yeah I cannot hear much beyond 15kHz either. And probably not below 25Hz.

That is interesting about the EQ at 18kHz.

Now with the Graphic EQ, you cannot control the Q-value. So it should affect the other adjacent frequencies a lot more than with the Parametric EQ, which allows you to set the Q-value to 0.5 and affects the adjacent frequencies very little (I think some say by +/- 5 Hz).

 

[KEW]

Oh I was planning on getting at A4L (refurbished),where they are currently around US $600. Will the sales be that great then?

Honestly, if I was buying today, I would get a refurbished 3300 for $400 or 3400 for $450 from A4L. I've looked at the 3500 and (for my needs) just don't see any features added that would justify paying 33% more for the 3500.
If there is a feature you gotta have on the 3500, then never-mind my post, but right now, I consider pre-amp outputs and XT32 with the D & M Audyssey app to be the most important features (I am assuming reasonable amp section is a given on any AVR that I would look at ... I want the option to use external amps for the mains and have solid power left for the surrounds). For me, I have an interest in the Alexa enabled aspect of the 3400, so would pay the extra $50 for the 3400 over the 3300.

But be assured that you are not likely to regret either of your current choices (Denon or Yamaha) in the models you are looking at!

I see the 3500 is now down to $550 with a 3 year warranty, that starts to close the gap. The question is whether a 3 year warranty (vs 1 year) is worth $100! It is not for me because I have had enough AVRs to believe they will either go bad in the first months or they are good for the long haul, but that depends on how badly it would impact your budget if the worst happened and you had to replace it unexpectedly.

 

[TheWarrior]

As for "blind testing", your attempt is better than nothing, but it's not double-blind.

True, but despite @KEW having control over which speaker I listened to, it was still MY ears that preferred the sound of one unknown speaker over the others (I think this test had 3 unique speakers).

I think I knew the T1R (KEW's has the ScanSpeak Revelators) was being used, but to KEW's point, when you eliminate the dominating sight that the T1 is, its sound is no more enveloping than some quality bookshelf speakers, like the Canton.