I'm so angry with the U.S. and Chinese governments right now!

Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
I'm probably the last guy who would normally come to Irv's defense, but that's not what he said or implied.

Nobody is saying the US is exceptional. What Irv is saying is that the complexity of scale can affect costs and outcomes. So comparing the US system to countries 1/10th its population assumes that costs and efficiencies are scaleable.

This is nonsense, as it overlooks the challenges and opportunities of administering support by totally different governance systems to a populace whose demographics are significantly different.
Q.E.D.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Now we enter the realm of specious arguments that somehow USA is so exceptional that somehow science does not work to evaluate US health care in comparison to other countries. I clearly disagree with this view, and to be honest, I think it is intellectually indefensible.
Wow, that is an incredibly inaccurate derivative of what I was saying. Actually, if you must know, I think US health and eating habits are typically worse than other developed countries, and I've been to many other developed countries. And it is not science that isn't working to evaluate US health care, it is simply a fact of centrally-managed hierarchical organizations that the bigger they get the more relative overhead they have. And then there's the world-wide drug pricing disparities, currently subsidized by markets, like the US, that do not regulate drug prices.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
It's not tangential in the least. You said:



You've been dismissive of the problems of size, and quite critical of quality of life issues in the US. Fair enough -- except you have difficulty facing the very real problems of your birth province and home province.

So your argument that it isn't what you have but what you do with it doesn't bode well for Nova Scotia does it? After all, it was home to most of Canada's wealth in the 1800s and founding province of two of Canada's major banks.

Yet it all slipped away. Perhaps it was bad luck. Or perhaps it was the province's history of electing left leaning governments with a taste for deficit spending, pork barrelling, and the "dole" (if I get that regionalism right).

Now all of this would matter for naught if we were talking broadly about where the world is today, but you turned it into a dissertation on liberalism and the failures of the US.

Perhaps it would be better to discuss the issues of how we all got here than to make this an issue of comparative politics. 'Cause your arguments have serious gaps... probably because you have a narrow view of the broader issue of the shortfalls of liberalism now playing out in Canada, Germany, UK, and other places.

I say this as a PBS watching, NPR listening, social liberal retiree... in case you incorrectly assume I'm a MAGA hat wearing, gun totin' 'Merican... which I'm not.
Ah, I get what you mean now. If I give the impression that I'm dismissive of America's problems, that was not my intention. And, I certainly didn't intend to turn this discussion into a "dissertation on liberalism and the failures of the US" - it just seemed to shift of its own accord into a debate about American domestic social policy. When I started this thread, it was just to vent about POTUS' clumsy and irresponsible statements about Huawei and Meng. But, as others jumped into the discussion, it morphed into a different discussion that I admit, I got sucked into.

I freely admit to Atlantic Canada's issues - I think my previous post indicates that I have a pretty good grasp of those issues. What I mean by "it's what you do with it", is that Canada's poorest provinces don't experience the same level of poverty as the poorest states - probably because of the social safety net here. As I understand it, the poorest states tend to be low tax states and public services tend to suffer as a result. By contrast, Canada's poorest provinces tax at higher rates, so public services don't suffer to the same degree. For example, I keep hearing complaints about how bad public schooIs are in poor areas in the US. While you may find some variation in the quality of schools in Canada, it's certainly not to a degree that is worthy of serious concern. I wouldn't hesitate to place my kid in any public schooI in the country. If I gave the impression that Atlantic Canada is another version of Greece, I can assure you, it most certainly is not.

My family and I have a comfortable income and I feel neither over-taxed, nor under-served. This is actually a fantastic place to raise a family, despite its economic problems.

As for "gaps in my arguments", I think it would be more accurate to describe it as difference of opinion. You describe yourself as a "social liberal". I don't wish to make assumptions, but since you you didn't state otherwise, it implies that you are a fiscal conservative. Would that be accurate? I am socially progressive and economically centrist by nature - Keynesian, if you will. If my arguments seem a bit too lefty to you, I can't help that. That's the problem with being a centrist - you're straddling a line. So, when you make an argument that leans a bit left, you're just another pinko to the conservatives. If you voice an opinion that leans the other way, you're just another fascist to the lefties. I get into plenty of "discussions" because of that. But - and I'm sure you're aware of this - it's the centre vote that tends to decide elections.

That's it. I will (try to) refrain from further comment on US domestic policy. I wish nothing but the best for our southern neighbours.
 
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GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I'm probably the last guy who would normally come to Irv's defense, but that's not what he said or implied.

Nobody is saying the US is exceptional. What Irv is saying is that the complexity of scale can affect costs and outcomes. So comparing the US system to countries 1/10th its population assumes that costs and efficiencies are scaleable.

This is nonsense, as it overlooks the challenges and opportunities of administering support by totally different governance systems to a populace whose demographics are significantly different.
I would suggest that the complexity is induced by the smorgasbord of private insurance providers and varying coverages. A single payer system could very well reduce that complexity. Just food for thought.

This will be my last comment on this topic.
 
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Wayde Robson

Wayde Robson

Audioholics Anchorman
Pumpkinhead decides to make it a political - vice legal - issue, by indicating that he could possibly use Meng as a pawn during trade negotiations with the Chinese!
The crux of Trump's cluelessness about international negotiations. I was disappointed in that too.

Although, I don't like to be just another person dumping on Trump, I can see the frustration many Americans had with its nation's political process and the divisiveness of a figure like Hilary Clinton. I am reasonably certain Clinton would have dragged the US into another war in the middle east. Although, I'm not convinced Trump won't do that either, especially after appointing Bolton as a security advisor.

My biggest concern with Trump is how blatant he is about seizing more power for the executive branch. Although this has been a problem with several of the last Presidents, and possibly a symptom of Congressional gridlock due to party alignment becoming so absolute. Inter-party co-operation to get anything done in Congress seems to have evaporated. So, executive order seems to be the only way anything happen during a President's term.

Which was my criticism of Obama's method of achieving Net Neutrality, by using exec order to bring Internet service under Title II of the 1936 Communications Act, as opposed to going through Congress to create new laws to update the the Clinton-era communications act of '96.

But Trump takes his desire to seize more and more power to a new level. Without a vibrant Congress with real power to do anything, America effectively becomes like so many other countries that are ruled by an individual, while other elected bodies in government are just for show, kind-of like Russia.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
The crux of Trump's cluelessness about international negotiations. I was disappointed in that too.

Although, I don't like to be just another person dumping on Trump, I can see the frustration many Americans had with its nation's political process and the divisiveness of a figure like Hilary Clinton. I am reasonably certain Clinton would have dragged the US into another war in the middle east. Although, I'm not convinced Trump won't do that either, especially after appointing Bolton as a security advisor.

My biggest concern with Trump is how blatant he is about seizing more power for the executive branch. Although this has been a problem with several of the last Presidents, and possibly a symptom of Congressional gridlock due to party alignment becoming so absolute. Inter-party co-operation to get anything done in Congress seems to have evaporated. So, executive order seems to be the only way anything happen during a President's term.

Which was my criticism of Obama's method of achieving Net Neutrality, by using exec order to bring Internet service under Title II of the 1936 Communications Act, as opposed to going through Congress to create new laws to update the the Clinton-era communications act of '96.

But Trump takes his desire to seize more and more power to a new level. Without a vibrant Congress with real power to do anything, America effectively becomes like so many other countries that are ruled by an individual, while other elected bodies in government are just for show, kind-of like Russia.
Yeah, I admit that I used somewhat impolitic language when I started this thread, which I regret. I usually try to keep it civil, but I was quite displeased with the US and Chinese governments at the time.

It was completely irresponsible for POTUS to suggest that he could use Meng as a bargaining chip during trade negotiations.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The crux of Trump's cluelessness about international negotiations. I was disappointed in that too.

Although, I don't like to be just another person dumping on Trump, I can see the frustration many Americans had with its nation's political process and the divisiveness of a figure like Hilary Clinton. I am reasonably certain Clinton would have dragged the US into another war in the middle east. Although, I'm not convinced Trump won't do that either, especially after appointing Bolton as a security advisor.

My biggest concern with Trump is how blatant he is about seizing more power for the executive branch. Although this has been a problem with several of the last Presidents, and possibly a symptom of Congressional gridlock due to party alignment becoming so absolute. Inter-party co-operation to get anything done in Congress seems to have evaporated. So, executive order seems to be the only way anything happen during a President's term.

Which was my criticism of Obama's method of achieving Net Neutrality, by using exec order to bring Internet service under Title II of the 1936 Communications Act, as opposed to going through Congress to create new laws to update the the Clinton-era communications act of '96.

But Trump takes his desire to seize more and more power to a new level. Without a vibrant Congress with real power to do anything, America effectively becomes like so many other countries that are ruled by an individual, while other elected bodies in government are just for show, kind-of like Russia.
You make a lot of good points.
If congress keeps being worthless, all power siphons over to the president with executive orders, and we will end up with effectively the same setup as third world dictatorships with their coups where any policy or program started by the last "president/dictator" gets replaced at the whims of the new "president/dictator" as they reverse what the previous administration did,
Security and stability are the things a country most needs from the government in order to allow industry (and the populace) to thrive!
If the rules change every 4 - 8 years, commitment to long-term planning becomes a fool's errand!
Of course, I would hope future presidents could be a little more respectful of their predecessors, but who knows. It is a pretty sure thing that Trump's successor (be it 4 or 8 years) will reverse much of Trumps policies, but I hope that ends up a one time anomaly and is simply a response to the extremes he has chosen! ... sometimes it seems more about the inflammatory approach he takes than what he does.
But the ideal is that there is a new wave of congressmen that can stop being so entrenched in the tribalism and start thinking in terms of "best solution/compromise", instead of "block the enemy at all costs"!
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
...
But the ideal is that there is a new wave of congressmen that can stop being so entrenched in the tribalism and start thinking in terms of "best solution/compromise", instead of "block the enemy at all costs"!
Sadly, I don't think it will get much better anytime soon with Trump's recent racist tweets attacking AOC and other women of colour in Congress. Senator Lindsey Graham said on Fox News that "We all know that A.O.C. and this crowd are a bunch of communists. They hate Israel, they hate our own country." Now I just wait for Trump and some other G.O.P. Congress members to be called fascist, which is much closer to the truth than AOC is a communist.

I expect this to get worse, unless G.O.P. starts pushing back at Trump.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Now I just wait for Trump and some other G.O.P. Congress members to be called fascist, which is much closer to the truth than AOC is a communist.
That's true; AOC isn't a communist, she's a socialist, but both are a fool's errand.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Where I live she would be seen as a social democrat, not a socialist. Her proposals, as I understand them, seems similar to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model, and the Nordic countries is a pretty good place to live in.
We've already discussed the Nordic model, somewhere on AH. The Nordic countries are tiny in terms of population, they are more like city-states than major nations, they are relatively homogeneous compared to the US, and Norway's economy is highly augmented by oil wealth.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
We've already discussed the Nordic model, somewhere on AH. The Nordic countries are tiny in terms of population, they are more like city-states than major nations, they are relatively homogeneous compared to the US, and Norway's economy is highly augmented by oil wealth.
They are, though my main point was more that AOC is more of a social democrat than a socialist.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
They are, though my main point was more that AOC is more of a social democrat than a socialist.
Actually, she calls herself a democratic socialist like Bernie Sanders. See:

https://www.businessinsider.com/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-explains-what-democratic-socialism-means-2019-3

Personally, I think she reminds me very much of Donald Trump, but her ideas are different. She's a bigot, she gets basic concepts and facts blatantly wrong, she doesn't believe in apologies, she has an incompetent staff, and she's as uncompromising with her views on immigration as Trump is. I think AOC and Trump deserve each other. The problem is that I think the rest of us Americans deserve better than either one of them.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Actually, she calls herself a democratic socialist like Bernie Sanders. See:

https://www.businessinsider.com/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-explains-what-democratic-socialism-means-2019-3

Personally, I think she reminds me very much of Donald Trump, but her ideas are different. She's a bigot, she gets basic concepts and facts blatantly wrong, she doesn't believe in apologies, she has an incompetent staff, and she's as uncompromising with her views on immigration as Trump is. I think AOC and Trump deserve each other. The problem is that I think the rest of us Americans deserve better than either one of them.
Thanks for the link, I'll try to watch the interview later. From the article it says "Ocasio-Cortez has likened her view of democratic socialism to Scandinavian social democracy.", so perhaps "left-wing social democrat" is something you think is a reasonable description?

What surprised me in your post is that you think she is a bigot, why is that?
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Thanks for the link, I'll try to watch the interview later. From the article it says "Ocasio-Cortez has likened her view of democratic socialism to Scandinavian social democracy.", so perhaps "left-wing social democrat" is something you think is a reasonable description?

What surprised me in your post is that you think she is a bigot, why is that?
No, she's a plain-old socialist. The working class and poor are noble, successful people are all greedy and selfish. Corporations are evil. People who take responsibility for their lives and succeed are just lucky or privileged, and everyone who doesn't succeed is there because of some structural inequity. In addition to being in the classic definition of bigotry, someone who is intolerant of opinions different than their own, she appears to discriminate against old people, and especially older men.

But this now famous quote from her sums up my lack of admiration for her sincerity or her intellect:

“An entire generation, which is now becoming one of the largest electorates in America, came of age and never saw American prosperity,” she says. “I have never seen that, or experienced it, really, in my adult life.”

What a fool.
 
davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Spartan
Actually, she calls herself a democratic socialist like Bernie Sanders. See:

https://www.businessinsider.com/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-explains-what-democratic-socialism-means-2019-3

Personally, I think she reminds me very much of Donald Trump, but her ideas are different. She's a bigot, she gets basic concepts and facts blatantly wrong, she doesn't believe in apologies, she has an incompetent staff, and she's as uncompromising with her views on immigration as Trump is. I think AOC and Trump deserve each other. The problem is that I think the rest of us Americans deserve better than either one of them.
So much truth in that statement. The problem is we are going to have to make a choice at the polls soon.
 
P

pewternhrata

Audioholic Chief
So much truth in that statement. The problem is we are going to have to make a choice at the polls soon.
Me personally, I dont ever want to see socialism here. Capitalism has its faults, but in short, only to those that dont take advantage of the opportunities presented to them.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Me personally, I dont ever want to see socialism here. Capitalism has its faults, but in short, only to those that dont take advantage of the opportunities presented to them.
You do realise that you do have socialism, right? Social security, medicare for senior citizens, food stamps for the poor, etc, are all “socialist” in nature. If you’re referring to the abolition of private property and all means of production to be publicly owned, well, that’s the communist extreme form of socialism.
If you already understand this, I apologise. But, if you “don’t ever want to see socialism here”, that horse has already left the barn.
I favour the capitalist economic model, as well. But, let’s not pretend that opportunity is presented equally to all. And, I think we have a moral obligation to look after those who cannot – whether due to physical/mental limitations or other circumstances – take advantage of the opportunities available to the rest of us.
 
P

pewternhrata

Audioholic Chief
You do realise that you do have socialism, right? Social security, medicare for senior citizens, food stamps for the poor, etc, are all “socialist” in nature. If you’re referring to the abolition of private property and all means of production to be publicly owned, well, that’s the communist extreme form of socialism.
If you already understand this, I apologise. But, if you “don’t ever want to see socialism here”, that horse has already left the barn.
I favour the capitalist economic model, as well. But, let’s not pretend that opportunity is presented equally to all. And, I think we have a moral obligation to look after those who cannot – whether due to physical/mental limitations or other circumstances – take advantage of the opportunities available to the rest of us.
Not necessarily true depending on its viewed "Social Security and Medicare are two separate programs administered by the government, but funded by individuals and their employers. The government does not contribute any funds into the programs. In order to qualify for each of these programs an individual must have worked and contributed for a minimum amount of terms. If one qualifies for Social Security then you automatically qualify for Medicare. Note the term qualify.

Socialism is where the government provides services to all, irrespective of whether they contribute."
 
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