The difference between pro and home-audio TT needles?

[killdozzer]

What cartridge would you use this replacement stylus in?

Well, I thought first I'd ask is it a good buy and if it is I'd look for a cartridge. How did you like the Grado Black for the money?

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, I thought first I'd ask is it a good buy and if it is I'd look for a cartridge. How did you like the Grado Black for the money?

You'd need to buy the M92 (I'd assume based on their usual designations) cartridge for that stylus. Backwards way of getting a spare stylus (cartridges come with the stylus to begin with).

ps Some cartridges can take a variety of styli usually from the same line of cartridges from a given maker....Grado does that, so does Ortofon. I don't think Shure did....

pps The Grado worked just fine

 

[TLS Guy]

If you don't mind me asking, what is your up to 100$ recomm?

BTW I found the model you're mentioning. Ten minutes walking distance from me. I'll probably check it out tomorrow morning. They also have Grado Black 2.

At under $100.00, I think it would be that very Audio Technica

 

[killdozzer]

At under $100.00, I think it would be that very Audio Technica

That sure tells me a lot. So this supposed fame of the Sumiko Oyster didn't brush against you?

There's a lot of sentimental value to this TT because of the way I got it. I gave it a 2 hour cleaning session today. So I'm sorry If I'm testing your patience, but in some irrational wish to give it a true lung to sing, what is your next cartridge in line after the one you named? The one that makes enough difference to make you brake the bank?

You'd need to buy the M92 (I'd assume based on their usual designations) cartridge for that stylus. Backwards way of getting a spare stylus (cartridges come with the stylus to begin with).

ps Some cartridges can take a variety of styli usually from the same line of cartridges from a given maker....Grado does that, so does Ortofon. I don't think Shure did....

pps The Grado worked just fine

I am aware of going backwards, but it's because of the market. Anyway, if that needle was worth it, I would go on a "quest" to find the needed cartridge. What are you using now and are you satisfied?

 

[lovinthehd]

That sure tells me a lot. So this supposed fame of the Sumiko Oyster didn't brush against you?

There's a lot of sentimental value to this TT because of the way I got it. I gave it a 2 hour cleaning session today. So I'm sorry If I'm testing your patience, but in some irrational wish to give it a true lung to sing, what is your next cartridge in line after the one you named? The one that makes enough difference to make you brake the bank?



I am aware of going backwards, but it's because of the market. Anyway, if that needle was worth it, I would go on a "quest" to find the needed cartridge. What are you using now and are you satisfied?

I meant also backwards in getting a replacement stylus for a cartridge you haven't even used yet....let alone worn out or damaged. I'd get the cartridge first in any case

I use the M97xE mentioned earlier. I've used a variety of cartridges over the years I've had this tt, but over the 35 years I've had this one I don't even remember them all, LOL. I don't remember ever having a cartridge that after I installed it thought "that won't do" on the other hand....and they're hard to compare properly if you don't have two turntables to do so with.

 

[killdozzer]

I meant also backwards in getting a replacement stylus for a cartridge you haven't even used yet

Yep, we meant the same thing. It's just that the needle is available in a physical shop nearby which I prefer and the cartridge is not. If I got high rcmm for the needle, I'd look for SH cartridge on ebay, that was my, now discarded, plan since you clearly want to see how I got there

As I said, it has to do with restoring, so I'm trying to get the best possible and be done with it for a longer time. I also don't use the TT much and the cartridge will surely be with me for a long time.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yep, we meant the same thing. It's just that the needle is available in a physical shop nearby which I prefer and the cartridge is not. If I got high rcmm for the needle, I'd look for SH cartridge on ebay, that was my, now discarded, plan since you clearly want to see how I got there

As I said, it has to do with restoring, so I'm trying to get the best possible and be done with it for a longer time. I also don't use the TT much and the cartridge will surely be with me for a long time.

Never even occurred to me to look for a used cartridge....but looking at ebay shure enuf (pun intended) there's an M92 (it was a p-mount by the way, so assume that's another DJ cartridge) for $50. Did your dad do some dj gigs?

 

[killdozzer]

Never even occurred to me to look for a used cartridge....but looking at ebay shure enuf (pun intended) there's an M92 (it was a p-mount by the way, so assume that's another DJ cartridge) for $50. Did your dad do some dj gigs?

My dad and DJ gigs!

I mentioned earlier; I think my father just wanted a Concorde cause it's quite big in our parts, so he got whatever was on offer.

I found another shop with Shure. 75$ needle, cartridge and a needed adapter for my tone arm.

Should I change my decision?

 

[lovinthehd]

Just peeked a bit at the M92, saw about that adapter thing.....but it at least has a reasonable tracking weight (.75 to 1.5g) I don't remember the M92 but seems same family as M91, which I have used. I'd prefer a cartridge with standard 1/2" mounts rather than an adapter myself, never used a p-mount tho. Looked for reviews on vinylengine but wasn't a lot there but was positive, same for the reviews at Needle Doctor...

ps So your dad wasn't an exhibitionist show boater, eh? LOL the old curmudgeon cracks me up sometimes.

 

[TLS Guy]

That sure tells me a lot. So this supposed fame of the Sumiko Oyster didn't brush against you?

There's a lot of sentimental value to this TT because of the way I got it. I gave it a 2 hour cleaning session today. So I'm sorry If I'm testing your patience, but in some irrational wish to give it a true lung to sing, what is your next cartridge in line after the one you named? The one that makes enough difference to make you brake the bank?



I am aware of going backwards, but it's because of the market. Anyway, if that needle was worth it, I would go on a "quest" to find the needed cartridge. What are you using now and are you satisfied?

There have been a lot of iterations of those Technics turntables. So I looked up yours. The best feature of those turntables has been the drive. The arms have been poor to dreadful. The arm does not warrant a really expensive cartridge, and certainly not a very high compliance one due to the mass of those arms. Unfortunately your turntable has an arm that has no height adjustment, which is a big problem. Also the turntable platter apparently has a reputation for ringing like a bell. Lastly the turntable is an automatic. This adds needles friction. When I am confronted with those turntables, I always remove the auto mechanism and convert it to manual. I have never not had that produce a noticeable increase in sound quality.

Unfortunately people assume the cartridge is the determinant of the final quality. It is not. It is the balance and synergy of the total package.

So you need a turntable mat with high damping properties.

The height of the cartridge will be crucial. If the cartridge is too tall you can not get the tracking angle of the stylus correct. You will have bad sound and excess record wear. If the cartridge is too short then you can overcome it with spacers, but it will take a lot of trial and error.

That turntable is not worth a very high priced cartridge. I would go for the Audio Technica or the Ortofon 2M red. The 2M red can be had for $100.00 in the US.

I would buy locally and hope you can return it if the height does not compatible with your arm.

I really an no lover of Far Eastern turntables. They do not get you to LP nirvana.

 

[killdozzer]

There have been a lot of iterations of those Technics turntables. So I looked up yours. The best feature of those turntables has been the drive. The arms have been poor to dreadful. The arm does not warrant a really expensive cartridge, and certainly not a very high compliance one due to the mass of those arms. Unfortunately your turntable has an arm that has no height adjustment, which is a big problem. Also the turntable platter apparently has a reputation for ringing like a bell. Lastly the turntable is an automatic. This adds needles friction. When I am confronted with those turntables, I always remove the auto mechanism and convert it to manual. I have never not had that produce a noticeable increase in sound quality.

Unfortunately people assume the cartridge is the determinant of the final quality. It is not. It is the balance and synergy of the total package.

So you need a turntable mat with high damping properties.

The height of the cartridge will be crucial. If the cartridge is too tall you can not get the tracking angle of the stylus correct. You will have bad sound and excess record wear. If the cartridge is too short then you can overcome it with spacers, but it will take a lot of trial and error.

That turntable is not worth a very high priced cartridge. I would go for the Audio Technica or the Ortofon 2M red. The 2M red can be had for $100.00 in the US.

I would buy locally and hope you can return it if the height does not compatible with your arm.

I really an no lover of Far Eastern turntables. They do not get you to LP nirvana.

Thank you for your answer. I know I weigh a lot when making a decision so thanks for the patience.

I do obviously have a better opinion on my TT then you have, but I don't think the cartridge is the end all for quality. I was asking, since I could spare up to 100$, Is there something you'd recommend that would be a step up from the ATVM95E for this model of TT. If I understood what you're saying; going for a better cartridge than ATVM95E will not improve TT's performance? After mounting this cartridge, the bottleneck would move to another link in the chain?

Anyway, I checked the Shure cartridge a bit and I'm giving up on it for the "cartridge being to tall" thing. The mentioned adapter is only making it taller. Once you mount the adapter, it still has to fit into the same headshell as others but with added height.

My mat is very good, though. Rather heavy piece of rubber that damps well and has lower middle section for the thicker part of the record, so record is really flat on the mat. Also the rubber is very soft so the record gets decoupled from beneath as well. I think that would be the hardest thing to improve on.

My next concern is to check the decoupling of the chassis and the platter. It does have the floating platter, but I want to see how did this design hold the test of time.

So, now that you've checked the model, the compliance of the ATVM95E is OK with a heavier tone arm?

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you for your answer. I know I weigh a lot when making a decision so thanks for the patience.

I do obviously have a better opinion on my TT then you have, but I don't think the cartridge is the end all for quality. I was asking, since I could spare up to 100$, Is there something you'd recommend that would be a step up from the ATVM95E for this model of TT. If I understood what you're saying; going for a better cartridge than ATVM95E will not improve TT's performance? After mounting this cartridge, the bottleneck would move to another link in the chain?

Anyway, I checked the Shure cartridge a bit and I'm giving up on it for the "cartridge being to tall" thing. The mentioned adapter is only making it taller. Once you mount the adapter, it still has to fit into the same headshell as others but with added height.

My mat is very good, though. Rather heavy piece of rubber that damps well and has lower middle section for the thicker part of the record, so record is really flat on the mat. Also the rubber is very soft so the record gets decoupled from beneath as well. I think that would be the hardest thing to improve on.

My next concern is to check the decoupling of the chassis and the platter. It does have the floating platter, but I want to see how did this design hold the test of time.

So, now that you've checked the model, the compliance of the ATVM95E is OK with a heavier tone arm?

Yes, I have. I think that Audio Technica have basically optimized the performance of that cartridge to perform with those very standard S-shaped and heavy Japanese PU arms. The PU arms are by far the weakest features of turntables of that genre. People have modified those turntables to take SME arms, The drive of those turntables are worth it.

All I can tell you is that in setting up turntables of that ilk, I have had the best results from fitting that Audio Techica cartridge. The more I think about your problem, the more I'm inclined to think that the AT VM 95E is actually my best recommendation for that turntable. I think it will be the best match.

 

[Verdinut]

It's been years since I had the V15III, so was curious if you compared to the M97. The brush I've had on a few cartridges over the years, tend to agree with you.

I never had the opportunity to compare them since I only have one TT. I also never got to adjusting the weight of the V15III head shell combination to that of the M97.

 

[killdozzer]

Unfortunately your turntable has an arm that has no height adjustment, which is a big problem.

On further inspection, it does have height adjustment

Yes, I have. I think that Audio Technica have basically optimized the performance of that cartridge to perform with those very standard S-shaped and heavy Japanese PU arms. The PU arms are by far the weakest features of turntables of that genre. People have modified those turntables to take SME arms, The drive of those turntables are worth it.

All I can tell you is that in setting up turntables of that ilk, I have had the best results from fitting that Audio Techica cartridge. The more I think about your problem, the more I'm inclined to think that the AT VM 95E is actually my best recommendation for that turntable. I think it will be the best match.

Well, in that case, all I can say is thanks again. That part of my TT tuning is over. I'm buying a headshell from Ortofon for 29$, (that's the best I could find) and an ATVM95E.

The TT wasn't used for some time now and the aluminum platter went all dark grey on me. I'm polishing it like a monkey and let me tell you... Some pressure is to be applied.

My next battle is rumble. I get a lot of it. I hope I'm right when I say that more tracking force makes for more rumble? If I'm right, it would mean that the new AT should also take a portion of that away. I have to see what filters are there in Yamaha AVR's phono section if any, and what filters are there in the NAD 106 pre-amp. NAD power amp filter those away, but it's out of order until I take care of the knobs.

I've cleaned most of it and it still has some shine left under all that patinae. I also found an old German recording of Mozart's Nacht Musik which my German Shepherd scratched when he was begging me to take him for a walk. I was sitting in front of my TT as a kid and he was putting his paw on my lap and pulled to get me going, all of a sudden he did the smae on the record, he placed his paw and just pulled. That one is lost.

 

[TLS Guy]

On further inspection, it does have height adjustment

Well, in that case, all I can say is thanks again. That part of my TT tuning is over. I'm buying a headshell from Ortofon for 29$, (that's the best I could find) and an ATVM95E.

The TT wasn't used for some time now and the aluminum platter went all dark grey on me. I'm polishing it like a monkey and let me tell you... Some pressure is to be applied.

My next battle is rumble. I get a lot of it. I hope I'm right when I say that more tracking force makes for more rumble? If I'm right, it would mean that the new AT should also take a portion of that away. I have to see what filters are there in Yamaha AVR's phono section if any, and what filters are there in the NAD 106 pre-amp. NAD power amp filter those away, but it's out of order until I take care of the knobs.

I've cleaned most of it and it still has some shine left under all that patinae. I also found an old German recording of Mozart's Nacht Musik which my German Shepherd scratched when he was begging me to take him for a walk. I was sitting in front of my TT as a kid and he was putting his paw on my lap and pulled to get me going, all of a sudden he did the smae on the record, he placed his paw and just pulled. That one is lost.

You can't always trust the NET. Vinyl engine said it did not have height adjustment.

Do you have rumble or acoustic feedback? The cures are different. Tracking force will not make a difference.

If you have rumble, there is something seriously wrong with the turntable. I have set up a number of Technics turntables and the best thing about them is the drive.

On that model you have the turntable is known to be highly resonant and are bad for acoustic feedback as a result. I guess a sorbo mat helps.

So we need to know if this is rumble or feedback. People have a habit of confusing the two.

 

[killdozzer]

Turning the volume way up on the quiet parts of the record, like the part before the program, will make my membranes dance wildly with no sound whatsoever. I ascribed that to the infrasonic frequencies that filters usually leave out.

 

[TLS Guy]

Turning the volume way up on the quiet parts of the record, like the part before the program, will make my membranes dance wildly with no sound whatsoever. I ascribed that to the infrasonic frequencies that filters usually leave out.

So that is not rumble, it is acoustic feedback.

The first thing is to try a different location. Often this problem is due to placing the turntable at an antinode of a room standing wave. So moving a few feet can make a lot of difference.

The next step is an isolation platform.

Lastly a vibration absorbing turntable mat. Here are some options. With that turntable you may need all three as all improve things and are synergistic.

 

[Swerd]

So that is not rumble, it is acoustic feedback.

The first thing is to try a different location. Often this problem is due to placing the turntable at an antinode of a room standing wave. So moving a few feet can make a lot of difference.

The next step is an isolation platform.

Lastly a vibration absorbing turntable mat. Here are some options. With that turntable you may need all three as all improve things and are synergistic.

I'm coming in late on this thread, and TLS Guy is providing good advice. But I thought I'd add something about turntable rumble vs. acoustic feedback.

In audio reproduction, rumble is a low frequency sound, usually from the bearings inside a turntable. This is most noticeable in lower quality turntables with ball bearings. Higher quality turntables use slide bearings, minimizing rumble.

Acoustic feedback, unlike rumble, is generated by a feedback loop between the loudspeakers and the pickup of a turntable. Bass sound, roughly 100 Hz, can travel from speakers through the air, furniture, shelves, floor, etc. and be picked up by the phono pickup.

As TLS Guy mentioned, trying a different location can make a big difference. In the past, I've found isolation mats under the speakers can help as much as under the turntable.

 

[Phase 2]

Or you could hang your TT, from your ceiling. I once lived in a mobile home. Acoustic feedback was a nightmare till I hung my TT from my ceiling using brass chains and plexiglass for the TT to sit on and wallah no more acoustic feedback no matter what the volume was.

 

[killdozzer]

On further inspection, it does have height adjustment.

I got a heads up about this in the personal message. Funny thing happened here; before clicking "post reply" I went to double-check what I found in the manual and already saw that I was wrong - it was the arm LIFT height adjustment and not the arm height adjustments. So I came back here to delete the text before posting and did so with Ctrl+A+Delete and then I went on to type the rest of the post, but in the end when I clicked "post reply" my deleted text also appeared.

Long story short, I did see what height is mentioned in the manual before posting this. Sorry for clogging up.

@Swerd & @TLS Guy I just want to be sure we do talk about the same thing. Between your two posts one would conclude that there's an audible 100Hz and inaudible 100Hz, but when I play the Sheffield Test CD, the freq of 100Hz is clearly and easily audible. But, what I'm experiencing is silent pulsating of the membrane with quite some excursion.

So, what is creating the standing waves while playing the empty portion of the record? If it’s 100Hz, why don’t I hear it? Why isn’t the stylus picking it up while lifted above the record?

At the moment my cables are way too short to move the TT around, but I’ll give that a shot when I rearrange the set up. When I hook up my TT to the NAD pre-amp I’ll run a longer interconnect between the NAD and the Yamaha to see if it helps.

As far as mats go, I must thank you for your intentions, but a cork mat is not going anywhere near my TT. Cork mat is the croc shoe of the Vinyl world, it’s disgusting, I don’t care for the properties. Also, the first four you’re recommending are completely flat, which means they hold the playing part of the record in the air never completely flat on the mat. But the number 5 is the winner, that one actually has thin cylinders that lift the record even higher in the air. I mean, don’t hold this against me, I’m just going by what Floyd Toole said here, quote: Flat mats are a waste of time, including the occasionally praised felt. The label area and perimeter are thicker which lifts the groove area away from the mat. The groove area needs to be in contact with the mat to damp vibrations, and vibrations are what the stylus picks up.

This is why Toole recommends sculptured mats and this is what I have. Only one compromise I can see myself doing and that is putting an extra damping layer between the platter and the rubber mat.