The difference between pro and home-audio TT needles?

[killdozzer]

Are DJ TT cartridges and needles usable for home audio soundwise? One can find many AT, Stanton and such, but I’d like to buy a Shure needle. At the moment, there are none to be found in my town except the pro ones. So I’m wondering could I use a model that is meant for scratching and that is supposed to be skip resistant, like this Shure:

Tone Arm Mount: 1/2" standard mount
Cartridge Type: MM
Output Voltage: 6,0 mV
Recommended Load: 47 kΩ; 250 pf
Tracking Force Range: 1,5 - 3 g
(Stylus) Cantilever:
Shure Type S
Heat-treated aluminum alloy / tubular
1 mil wall thickness / 30 mil diameter
Diamond Stylus Tip:
Spherical 0,7 mil
Compliance: 20 µm/mN
Frequency Response: 20 Hz - 20 kHz
Stereo Channel Balance: 2 dB
Channel Separation (at 1kHz): 20 dB
Net Weight: 6,2 g
Height: 15,9 mm

This is my TT:

Weight: 6.5kgription
The Technics SL-Q202 is fitted with an s-shaped, tubular tonearm with detachable headshell and EPC-U25 moving magnet cartridge.
The unit features high torque and fast start-up time.

Specifications
Platter: 312mm aluminium die-cast
Motor: ultra-low speed brush-less DC
Wow and flutter: 0.025% WRMS
Rumble: -78dB
Tonearm type: static balanced tubular
Effective length: 230mm
Overhang: 15mm
Dimensions: 430 x 106 x 375mm
Weight: 6.5kg

 

[lovinthehd]

Sure, they're usable but many vinylphiles would probably not do it as it would hurt their delicate sensibilities The DJ cartridges are built to handle scratching, i.e. going both directions on the record, something that wouldn't work so well on a regular cartridge (apparently, never tried it). I think it's more common to use a spherical stylus with the DJ ones but not sure.

Found this on the cartridge that came with your tt https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=78682

And this on the one you're considering https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=101319


OTOH why buy from a shop, no mail order/Amazon type services available? Now that Shure is out of the cartridge biz my M97xE has more than doubled in price, as has the replacement stylus so I'll probably look elsewhere should I manage to wear out the current one with as little as I use my tt these days....

 

[killdozzer]

The DJ cartridges are built to handle scratching.

Thank you VM @lovinthehd

Yes, this "built for scratching" business made me scratch my head. I was wondering what would it mean for the performance.

Also, I forgot to mention that at the moment I have the Ortofon Concorde ProS. Both are entry level DJ's cartridges, I'm guessing no big change should be expected going for the Shure.

I like the description for the Shure, but the treble/trouble won't do. My father left me a lot of records with classical. Some of them good.

I joined the vinylengine just to DL the manuals for the TT, but it's not letting me. I guess I have to be a member for some time, or...

I know about the original needle and cartridge. It was really good. I had it for a long time and even manged to buy a new out-of-the-store 8 - 9 years ago, but that's gone. The cartridge and even the headshell are missing now, I didn't find them among my father's belongings.

Going back to the original set would be harder now (I do realise I'd need the headshell for the Shure also, Concorde is like headshell and cartridge in one).

 

[lovinthehd]

So the Concorde is a P-mount? Headshells should still be available; I picked up an extra for my SL1200 not too long ago...KAB is a good source here IIRC if you can't find OEM.

Seems to me I could download right away at vinylengine but I may be thinking of hifiengine...it's always fun trying to find that info.

If I can't get a Shure piece at a reasonable price I'd probably just try one of the replacement styli from lpgear.com. Maybe try an Ortofon Red or Blue?

 

[killdozzer]

So the Concorde is a P-mount? Headshells should still be available; I picked up an extra for my SL1200 not too long ago...KAB is a good source here IIRC if you can't find OEM.

Seems to me I could download right away at vinylengine but I may be thinking of hifiengine...it's always fun trying to find that info.

If I can't get a Shure piece at a reasonable price I'd probably just try one of the replacement styli from lpgear.com. Maybe try an Ortofon Red or Blue?

I could DL at hifi right away, but at vinyl it keeps returning me to the login menu even after I've logged in. I'll sort it out, no worries.

Thank you for all the help! I could try Ortofon and the shop has the headshells as well. A bit pricy, though. 200$ for an Ortofon Red mounted on a dedicated headshell or 170$ if I buy a generic headshell.

 

[killdozzer]

Some more input; the needle I have at the moment is really not suited for this TT. Achieving zero-balance requires to drive the weight so far back that it almost falls off. And that's where trouble only begins; it has a 4g recommended tracking force and my TT doesn't have that much to provide. Manuals state that antiskating should be as much as the down pressure and again, it doesn't have that much. I think that, looking by that number alone, Shure would be much more suited.

On another note, switching on dolby pro logic makes such a terrible mess out of the sound, I couldn't believe. By simply turning it off, I got a very good sound, I was very happy.

Still, I think it can do better without much effort.

 

[lovinthehd]

I suppose higher tracking force comes along with dj use too. What does the tt manual say about cartridge weight range? There's some matching consideration for arm mass too....

 

[Verdinut]

@killdozzer,

I have a Shure V15 Type III with a like new stylus, which was sold by the German Dual turntable manufacturer as a replacement for the genuine Shure several years ago, when Shure discontinued its production. . This replacement stylus was only used for a few LP plays.

Just like @lovinthehd, I already have a Shure M97xE and a spare stylus for it which I'm am not thinking of parting from for the time being. I still have a TT.

Should you be interested in the Shure, just PM me with a reasonable offer after reviewing the current asking price on the market. I might accept it. Please note that I only accept payment through PayPal.

 

[TLS Guy]

You really don't want a DJ scratch cartridge in yours system. These cartridges are designed for abuse and not accurate reproduction for exhibitionists and show boaters who think their antics are a musical performance.

The cartridges have high reciprocating masses and low compliance and your record collection will have a severe antipathy towards them.

Unfortunately Shure who were the "go-to" guys for cartridges have stopped making them.

I would recommend Ortofon or Goldring as alternatives now. Avoid the very bottom of the Ortofon range. Probably between the Rad and the Black of their range is the cost effective sweet spot

 

[killdozzer]

I suppose higher tracking force comes along with dj use too. What does the tt manual say about cartridge weight range? There's some matching consideration for arm mass too....

Yes, yes, exactly! As I said the scales of my TT don't even go as high as recommended for the current needle. I think my father just wanted a Concorde cause it's quite big in our parts, so he got whatever was on offer.

As for other numbers and specs compliance, I still have to study them a little. Thank you @hd!!

@killdozzer,

I have a Shure V15 Type III with a like new stylus, which was sold by the German Dual turntable manufacturer as a replacement for the genuine Shure several years ago, when Shure discontinued its production. . This replacement stylus was only used for a few LP plays.

Just like @lovinthehd, I already have a Shure M97xE and a spare stylus for it which I'm am not thinking of parting from for the time being. I still have a TT.

Should you be interested in the Shure, just PM me with a reasonable offer after reviewing the current asking price on the market. I might accept it. Please note that I only accept payment through PayPal.

Thank you for a very nice offer and your info. I live so far away from you that I'm not thinking of any oreders or purchases. But I must say, if you were anywhere in EU, I'd jump at your offer.

I'm actually thinking on going "Shure hunting" to see if any stores got some stacked away somewhere and forgotten about. Wishful, I know!

You really don't want a DJ scratch cartridge in yours system. These cartridges are designed for abuse and not accurate reproduction for exhibitionists and show boaters who think their antics are a musical performance.

The cartridges have high reciprocating masses and low compliance and your record collection will have a severe antipathy towards them.

Unfortunately Shure who were the "go-to" guys for cartridges have stopped making them.

I would recommend Ortofon or Goldring as alternatives now. Avoid the very bottom of the Ortofon range. Probably between the Rad and the Black of their range is the cost effective sweet spot

As per usual, your posts really hit the spot. I suspected I shouldn't mess with DJ stuff. Ortofon it is, then, since I think I won't find any Goldring where I live. This is the advice I needed, what to look for if Shure is not an option.

Also, I have to find a model I can buy spare needles for, cause it's pricey here. You said cost-effective sweet spot and I'm looking at 170 - 200$ price range. I was hoping there was a sweeter spot so to speak.

 

[killdozzer]

OK, I found one, could you please advise on this purchase;
Shure N92E needle for 30$

It's just the needle.

 

[killdozzer]

Perhaps this will be a better way about it; not to limit myself to what's nearby, I found a decent offer of headshells, needles and cartridges in the web shop where I bought my speakers. If anyone's up for it, follow the link and tell me what you think. 100€ would be my absolute top price for the cartridge-needle.

Also, I heard so many praises for the Sumiko Oyster that I simply have to ask for your opinions. They also have Nagaoka, but the cheapest is too expensive. Then there's some Rega, Audio Techinca (which wouldn't be my first choice), Goldring, Ortofon and others.

 

[TLS Guy]

OK, I found one, could you please advise on this purchase;
Shure N92E needle for 30$

It's just the needle.

I would not buy the Shure. If you damage the cartridge then you will have to settle for on off brand replacement stylus or not find one at all.

If you want a cartridge that pulls above its price range, then look for this.
Audio-Technica AT-VM95E

In the US it is $49. I have used this putting together budget systems for people and it is a good performer, with no really bad vices. It is my top pick for the under $50 cartridges.

 

[highfigh]

I would not buy the Shure. If you damage the cartridge then you will have to settle for on off brand replacement stylus or not find one at all.

If you want a cartridge that pulls above its price range, then look for this.
Audio-Technica AT-VM95E

In the US it is $49. I have used this putting together budget systems for people and it is a good performer, with no really bad vices. It is my top pick for the under $50 cartridges.

I have seen that model paired with so many turntables that I wondered why- I didn't like the version that was available 30 years ago with yellow plastic but apparently, they improved on it. It's not like they had to do it as a start-up model, after all.

 

[killdozzer]

I would not buy the Shure. If you damage the cartridge then you will have to settle for on off brand replacement stylus or not find one at all.

If you want a cartridge that pulls above its price range, then look for this.
Audio-Technica AT-VM95E

In the US it is $49. I have used this putting together budget systems for people and it is a good performer, with no really bad vices. It is my top pick for the under $50 cartridges.

If you don't mind me asking, what is your up to 100$ recomm?

BTW I found the model you're mentioning. Ten minutes walking distance from me. I'll probably check it out tomorrow morning. They also have Grado Black 2.

 

[Verdinut]

The Grado Black cartridge is a very good product. I used it in the past for a couple of years. If you could get one with a spare genuine needle, you would be all set.

 

[lovinthehd]

OK, I found one, could you please advise on this purchase;
Shure N92E needle for 30$

It's just the needle.

What cartridge would you use this replacement stylus in?

 

[lovinthehd]

@killdozzer,

I have a Shure V15 Type III with a like new stylus, which was sold by the German Dual turntable manufacturer as a replacement for the genuine Shure several years ago, when Shure discontinued its production. . This replacement stylus was only used for a few LP plays.

Just like @lovinthehd, I already have a Shure M97xE and a spare stylus for it which I'm am not thinking of parting from for the time being. I still have a TT.

Should you be interested in the Shure, just PM me with a reasonable offer after reviewing the current asking price on the market. I might accept it. Please note that I only accept payment through PayPal.

I've used the Grado Black and the V-15III too You prefer the M97 over the V15?

 

[Verdinut]

I've used the Grado Black and the V-15III too You prefer the M97 over the V15?

I don't have an obvious preference for either one. However, the M97 has that cleaning brush which I find is a smart feature and to my ears, it performs pretty well.

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't have an obvious preference for either one. However, the M97 has that cleaning brush which I find is a smart feature and to my ears, it performs pretty well.

It's been years since I had the V15III, so was curious if you compared to the M97. The brush I've had on a few cartridges over the years, tend to agree with you.