Room EQ yes or no or sparingly

[PENG]

Again, for those interested, below are links to Zendesk's explanation on the flat and reference target curves.
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347723-MultEQ-Target-Curves. I cannot find the reference curve for DEQ, but I remember seeing some sort of demo curve(s) on the Audyssey site when they were still active.

 

[PENG]

That's disappointing, and would have been frustrating had I bought an app-enabled unit. OTOH many customer service agents don't have a clue at many audio companies (why I wondered if it was from Chris K particularly, he'd know).

He may still be reachable on twitter...

 

[PENG]

That’s what I thought but I confirmed with the Audyssey rep and he said DEQ is still applied 20hz-20khz even when limited.

From all the graphs I plotted over the years, it does not impact the high frequencies much. As KEW noted, in my case there was a slight boost starting at around 9 kHz. It affects the low frequencies much more, all supposedly to match our hearing sensitivity vs frequencies/volume, for those who cannot stand THX reference level and above. I understand your point about it boosts the surround channel too much, relative to the Atmos channels. That, to me, would be a major design flaw that they might not have anticipated way back when Atmos/Auro3D did not exist.

 

[RTG]

From all the graphs I plotted over the years, it does not impact the high frequencies much. As KEW noted, in my case there was a slight boost starting at around 9 kHz. It affects the low frequencies much more, all supposedly to match our hearing sensitivity vs frequencies/volume, for those who cannot stand THX reference level and above. I understand your point about it boosts the surround channel too much, relative to the Atmos channels. That, to me, would be a major design flaw that they might not have anticipated way back when Atmos/Auro3D did not exist.

Im sure that’s one of the reasons why D&M released the app. Audyssey was stagnant, Audyssey is much older than Atmos. It didn’t play well in my room. That and of course D&M needed to offer a similar experience to Dirac and ARC. Room correction has come a long way but in the end the science behind the Schroeder frequency can’t be disputed.

 

[PENG]

Im sure that’s one of the reasons why D&M released the app. Audyssey was stagnant, Audyssey is much older than Atmos. It didn’t play well in my room. That and of course D&M needed to offer a similar experience to Dirac and ARC. Room correction has come a long way but in the end the science behind the Schroeder frequency can’t be disputed.

I wouldn't be so sure, those PhDs behind Dirac and a couple other REQ systems can't be all that dumb. Even Anthem's didn't completely rule out the merit of applying req to freq above Schroeder's. I think sometimes people might be a little too quick to convince themselves they understood the science behind certain things, only to realize there may be more to it. For the time being, I too, set a limit. Practically speaking, I really couldn't tell the difference either way.

 

[RTG]

I wouldn't be so sure, those PhDs behind Dirac and a couple other REQ systems can't be all that dumb. Even Anthem's didn't completely rule out the merit of applying req to freq above Schroeder's. I think sometimes people might be a little too quick to convince themselves they understood the science behind certain things, only to realize there may be more to it. For the time being, I too, set a limit. Practically speaking, I really couldn't tell the difference either way.

I never said EQ was dumb. A good speaker in a properly configured room will likely sound better without EQ, unless you don’t like the sound of your speaker. That’s a different story and problem. Arc limits at 5K and Dirac at 500 for a reason. Yes there is an option to EQ full range same as Audyssey but just because it’s there doesn’t mean it must be used. These companies are also a business and their existence is to sell its products. If a room is bad then absolutely, EQ is a must. When my HT was in a living room with hardwood floors and Windows in an open concept I had to EQ. In the end I can only go by my experience and what my ears like and my HT sounds much clearer with MultiEQ only correcting bass and DEQ off because I focussed on correcting my room with treatments rather than correct the speakers I like with EQ filters.

 

[RTG]

Audyssey got back to me regarding limiting MultiEQ and using DEQ...

“Dynamic EQ is not affected by changes to the target curve. It will boost high frequencies.
Full spectrum.”

 

[RTG]

To add to my last post. You would think this is something they would be working on. If you limit MultiEQ DEQ should then only affect the corrected frequencies and of course boost the surround channels. It’s very bizarre that it would work like that. It won’t be an issue with laid back speakers but if people have forward speakers like I have it can create issues. Some people might like the effect though.

 

[PENG]

I never said EQ was dumb. A good speaker in a properly configured room will likely sound better without EQ, unless you don’t like the sound of your speaker. That’s a different story and problem.

Never said you said EQ was dumb either lol, so please don't be so sensitive. I made that comment about those Ph.D. can't be that dumb simply trying to say that might have designed their systems to EQ above the Schreider freqeuncey based on something they know, that might not have been considered by those who disagreed with the approach. As far as whether a good speaker in a properly configured room will likely sound better without EQ, that seems like a general statement with qualifiers so sounds fair.. I would like to add that your "the science behind the Schroeder frequency can’t be disputed" comment may well be 100% true. Whether to apply REQ to frequencies above that point could still be debatable, as it may depend on many other factors. By the way, unless you are in a very small room, if you set your limit to 300 Hz, that could be well above the transition frequency for your room already, just for argument sake and I know you know that already..

Arc limits at 5K and Dirac at 500 for a reason. Yes there is an option to EQ full range same as Audyssey but just because it’s there doesn’t mean it must be used. These companies are also a business and their existence is to sell its products. If a room is bad then absolutely, EQ is a must.

Just for further clarity, Anthem ARC's "option" to EQ full range is applicable to the AVM and D series. Below is from Audioholics.com interview with their Dr. Peter Schuck and Nick Platsis.

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/anthem-arc-room-eq-interview

Nick Platsis: It is reliable up to 5 kHz. After that it starts becoming too directional with increasing frequency. Maximum correction range for MRX receivers is 5 kHz. This is the normally recommended setting, and the default, in all versions of ARC and is user adjustable down to 200 Hz. In AVM/D it can be set as high as 20 kHz, but effectiveness of correction at these upper frequencies often depends on whether the tweeters (and mic) are at ear level. A listening test is the best way to find out.

So part of reason, aside from that related to Schroeder's findings, why they limit the non AVM/D series to 5 kHz could be hardware/cost related.

When my HT was in a living room with hardwood floors and Windows in an open concept I had to EQ. In the end I can only go by my experience and what my ears like and my HT sounds much clearer with MultiEQ only correcting bass and DEQ off because I focussed on correcting my room with treatments rather than correct the speakers I like with EQ filters.

Understood, preference is also a subjective thing, so it is great that MultEQ bass and DEQ off works well for you. As we both know, many prefer to have Audyssey "off" completely while others would prefer everything "on", and full range.

Anyway, sorry if I got you side tracked from your original question per your thread title, and thank you for sharing Audyssey's response confirming DEQ applies regardless of the transition frequency setting. That actual makes sense to me.

 

[RTG]

Never said you said EQ was dumb either lol, so please don't be so sensitive. I made that comment about those Ph.D. can't be that dumb simply trying to say that might have designed their systems to EQ above the Schreider freqeuncey based on something they know, that might not have been considered by those who disagreed with the approach. As far as whether a good speaker in a properly configured room will likely sound better without EQ, that seems like a general statement with qualifiers so sounds fair.. I would like to add that your "the science behind the Schroeder frequency can’t be disputed" comment may well be 100% true. Whether to apply REQ to frequencies above that point could still be debatable, as it may depend on many other factors. By the way, unless you are in a very small room, if you set your limit to 300 Hz, that could be well above the transition frequency for your room already, just for argument sake and I know you know that already..



Just for further clarity, Anthem ARC's "option" to EQ full range is applicable to the AVM and D series. Below is from Audioholics.com interview with their Dr. Peter Schuck and Nick Platsis.

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/anthem-arc-room-eq-interview



So part of reason, aside from that related to Schroeder's findings, why they limit the non AVM/D series to 5 kHz could be hardware/cost related.



Understood, preference is also a subjective thing, so it is great that MultEQ bass and DEQ off works well for you. As we both know, many prefer to have Audyssey "off" completely while others would prefer everything "on", and full range.

Anyway, sorry if I got you side tracked from your original question per your thread title, and thank you for sharing Audyssey's response confirming DEQ applies regardless of the transition frequency setting. That actual makes sense to me.

No, no sorry if I came off that I was offended. I really wasn’t at all. I really like this debate and why I posted it. I find it very interesting hearing other people’s opinions and how they like to listen. It’s how I learn. When I said I never said it was stupid, it didn’t sound stand-offish in my head lol.

I think the new update or new version of ARC is different now in terms of cutting off at 5khz. I’m not sure though. I definitely could be mistaken, I haven’t been following Arc since I was looking at an Anthem years ago.

On a side note the MultiEQ App was updated!!! NO MORE 3db ROLL-OFF at 20hz. Sorry for telling but that made my wet Monday good. Cannot wait get home and send the updated results to my Denon.

 

[PENG]

On a side note the MultiEQ App was updated!!! NO MORE 3db ROLL-OFF at 20hz. Sorry for telling but that made my wet Monday good. Cannot wait get home and send the updated results to my Denon.

Wow, two good news in 24 hours! Not doubting you but where did you get that update info from? My App just say last updated April 11, bugs fixed blablabla but not much more than that.

 

[RTG]

Wow, two good news in 24 hours! Not doubting you but where did you get that update info from? My App just say last updated April 11, bugs fixed blablabla but not much more than that.

Yep. The members over at AVS said it was released. Will be doing the update and sending as soon as I get home.

 

[PENG]

Updated the App, the changes are obvious and it seems more than just a <20 Hz roll off.

These are just the target curves, I am going have to upload the updated curves, and then run REW again to see how the actual results for before and after compares.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

So, I just need to update and send to the AVR? No recalibration?
That would be nice!

 

[PENG]

So, I just need to update and send to the AVR? No recalibration?
That would be nice!

Yes, that should be it.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Sweeeeeet!!!
...I hate running Audyssey! Lol

 

[RTG]

Yep, I did mine when I got home. I have 2 small dips I’m trying to get rid of. I actually turned DEQ on to test after the update. It actually sounded great.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

 

[RTG]

I noticed a big difference with the update. I tested Dark Night Rises, Saving Private Ryan and Fallout.

 

[PENG]

Yep, I did mine when I got home. I have 2 small dips I’m trying to get rid of. I actually turned DEQ on to test after the update. It actually sounded great.

I always had a couple of dips after each run, upping the FR/FL XO to 80 or 90 Hz post Audyssey run fixed those, not completely but good enough and better than most posted graphs I have seen.