Room EQ yes or no or sparingly

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
When I say accurate I mean all levels at the same level, I would rather hear what the mixer intended and I don’t think the mixer had DEQ in mind. DEQ definitely has its advantages and I really do think it’s a great tool for folks like yourself who listen at very low volume. I’ve always had some reservations about EQ and have decided to use room treatments and proper placement rather than change the character of my speakers. I did try DEQ on with MultiEQ limited to 300hz but the issue was it bumping the high frequencies. It didn’t sound right since my speakers already articulate, it sounded too harsh. My HT has never sounded so good.
Harsh? That's weird especially when you have already limited EQ to below 300 Hz. Which avr by the way?
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
Another thing I noted about using MultiEQ full range and DEQ is it drowns out my Atmos modules. I always felt underwhelmed with my modules and now I realize with DEQ on the surrounds are so loud they drowned them out. Once I turned off DEQ and limited EQ they are much clearer, the effect works much better now.
Iirc, Deq doesn’t boost atmos speakers like it does surrounds. I believe that would apply to upfiring modules as well as In/on ceiling too. Actually come to think of it, Deq might boost the rear heights but not front. Assuming x.x.4. I always thought that was dumb.

That might explain some of your issues too.
 
R

RTG

Audioholic
Harsh? That's weird especially when you have already limited EQ to below 300 Hz. Which avr by the way?
Yeah it boosted treble slightly which DEQ already does. I noticed it with dialogue. My speakers are pretty flat and DEQ bumped it too much. I spoke with an Audyssey rep about it. I have a Denon X4300 and Klipsch RP’s.
 
R

RTG

Audioholic
Iirc, Deq doesn’t boost atmos speakers like it does surrounds. I believe that would apply to upfiring modules as well as In/on ceiling too. Actually come to think of it, Deq might boost the rear heights but not front. Assuming x.x.4. I always thought that was dumb.

That might explain some of your issues too.
Correct, that’s the issue. It did not boost my modules. I had speakers mounted on my ceiling previously and didn’t have that issue with DEQ on. Once I installed the modules I was disappointed. Atmos sounds much better now that DEQ is off.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Correct, that’s the issue. It did not boost my modules. I had speakers mounted on my ceiling previously and didn’t have that issue with DEQ on. Once I installed the modules I was disappointed. Atmos sounds much better now that DEQ is off.
DEQ is supposed to boost the low (edit: and "high") frequencies only. At any specific spl/vol below reference level, the boost applied will drop progressively as frequency increases. As well, at a specific level and frequency, it will drop with increase in volume. So if the Atmos modules as mounted don't have much bass response to begin with, then DEQ will not have much effects on them. Again, these is all in theory, it is of course very possible that you don't prefer such LF compensating scheme, or Audyssey is simply not good enough, or both. As you must know, the old "loudness" schemes attempted to achieve the same goals, but I never liked/used that feature because I didn't find the effect natural. DEQ, to me has taken the "loudness" thing to a new level, to the point I find it indispensable, but I am sure there is a lot of room for improvement, though it looks like Audyssey has given up..

Attached are two of my very old graphs that show the effect of DEQ, note that by the time it reached about 120 Hz, the boost was only about 3.5 dB.
 

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R

RTG

Audioholic
DEQ is supposed to boost the low frequencies only. At any specific spl/vol below reference level, the boost applied will drop progressively as frequency increases. As well, at a specific level and frequency, it will drop with increase in volume. So if the Atmos modules as mounted don't have much bass response to begin with, then DEQ will not have much effects on them. Again, these is all in theory, it is of course very possible that you don't prefer such LF compensating scheme, or Audyssey is simply not good enough, or both. As you must know, the old "loudness" schemes attempted to achieve the same goals, but I never liked/used that feature because I didn't find the effect natural. DEQ, to me has taken the "loudness" thing to a new level, to the point I find it indispensable, but I am sure there is a lot of room for improvement, though it looks like Audyssey has given up..

Attached are two of my very old graphs that show the effect of DEQ, note that by the time it reached about 120 Hz, the boost was only about 3.5 dB.
DEQ also boosts high frequencies though. When I ran into the issue with the overemphasis of high frequencies I spoke with a rep from Audyssey and he recommended that I use the Reference curve full range since my speakers natural character are revealing and using DEQ without full range EQ could create the issue I was having. The Reference curve really takes a lot off the top with my speakers. It’s the only reason why I turned DEQ off. As I said I’m very familiar with it since I’ve been using it for so many years.

DEQ didn’t affect the modules directly but the increase in volume of my surround and rears drowned them out. It’s all I could focus on. Even at -10 MV. With DEQ the surrounds are just too overwhelming in my room. As soon as I limited EQ and turned off DEQ I could clearly hear the difference. Interestingly enough I left Audyssey full range and shut DEQ off and although it did improve overhead effects it still isn’t as clear as when EQ is limited only to the bass.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
DEQ also boosts high frequencies though. When I ran into the issue with the overemphasis of high frequencies I spoke with a rep from Audyssey and he recommended that I use the Reference curve full range since my speakers natural character are revealing and using DEQ without full range EQ could create the issue I was having. The Reference curve really takes a lot off the top with my speakers. It’s the only reason why I turned DEQ off. As I said I’m very familiar with it since I’ve been using it for so many years.

DEQ didn’t affect the modules directly but the increase in volume of my surround and rears drowned them out. It’s all I could focus on. Even at -10 MV. With DEQ the surrounds are just too overwhelming in my room. As soon as I limited EQ and turned off DEQ I could clearly hear the difference. Interestingly enough I left Audyssey full range and shut DEQ off and although it did improve overhead effects it still isn’t as clear as when EQ is limited only to the bass.
If you're using the app limited to 300hz then my understanding is that DEQ is also limited accordingly....then again there have been miscellanous issues reported with app use...
 
R

RTG

Audioholic
If you're using the app limited to 300hz then my understanding is that DEQ is also limited accordingly....then again there have been miscellanous issues reported with app use...
That’s what I thought but I confirmed with the Audyssey rep and he said DEQ is still applied 20hz-20khz even when limited.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
That’s what I thought but I confirmed with the Audyssey rep and he said DEQ is still applied 20hz-20khz even when limited.
Audyssey rep? Like in a phone call? Or did you get this from Chris K himself? Just curious, good to know if true as that somewhat defeats the purpose of limiting via the app. I have older units pre-app (no Atmos either) but have no particular issues when I use Audyssey (altho prefer XT32 over XT).
 
R

RTG

Audioholic
Audyssey rep? Like in a phone call? Or did you get this from Chris K himself? Just curious, good to know if true as that somewhat defeats the purpose of limiting via the app. I have older units pre-app (no Atmos either) but have no particular issues when I use Audyssey (altho prefer XT32 over XT).
No, through Ask Audyssey Zendesk. I figured it would only apply to the corrected frequencies but I was told “ The app only affects the room correction filter, DEQ does not change. DEQ will be the same, it will still raise high frequencies.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
No, through Ask Audyssey Zendesk. I figured it would only apply to the corrected frequencies but I was told “ The app only affects the room correction filter, DEQ does not change. DEQ will be the same, it will still raise high frequencies.
The room correction filter? It's simply an eq algorithm, either it's limited by the app or it's not to my way of thinking. Can you link the specifics?
 
R

RTG

Audioholic
The room correction filter? It's simply an eq algorithm, either it's limited by the app or it's not to my way of thinking. Can you link the specifics?
It was through my email. That’s word for word what the rep said. He means DEQ will will work as usual even if limited which is why I was hearing more treble than I liked.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
It was through my email. That’s word for word what the rep said. He means DEQ will will work as usual even if limited which is why I was hearing more treble than I liked.
That's disappointing, and would have been frustrating had I bought an app-enabled unit. OTOH many customer service agents don't have a clue at many audio companies (why I wondered if it was from Chris K particularly, he'd know).
 
R

RTG

Audioholic
That's disappointing, and would have been frustrating had I bought an app-enabled unit. OTOH many customer service agents don't have a clue at many audio companies (why I wondered if it was from Chris K particularly, he'd know).
True, I actually just submitted another ticket to see if I get different results. Not that I would enable DEQ with MultiEQ limited anyway but I am curious. Unfortunately I don’t have means to measure but I could hear a significant difference.

Am I assuming you’re a fan of DEQ and was hoping to cut the frequency response?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
DEQ is supposed to boost the low frequencies only.

Attached are two of my very old graphs that show the effect of DEQ.
You misstated something here?
The graph you posted shows DEQ effecting the highs above ~9kHz.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
True, I actually just submitted another ticket to see if I get different results. Not that I would enable DEQ with MultiEQ limited anyway but I am curious. Unfortunately I don’t have means to measure but I could hear a significant difference.

Am I assuming you’re a fan of DEQ and was hoping to cut the frequency response?
That might depend on the curve you set in the app, the additional bass boost of deq might be interesting at lower volume (which deq assists with to begin with); I suppose you could compensate as well on the higher frequencies tho via the app. If I did get a unit with the app I'd hope that if I limited the effect to the Schroeder frequency type setting that even DEQ would abide by that. Hard to get actual details about exactly what happens as post-Audyssey specifics have always been limited in actual information of what exactly was adjusted and by how much (supposedly to guard proprietary info). Yes, I do often use DEQ; I'd like to experiment with limiting the Audyssey function to below Schroeder only.
 
R

RTG

Audioholic
That might depend on the curve you set in the app, the additional bass boost of deq might be interesting at lower volume (which deq assists with to begin with); I suppose you could compensate as well on the higher frequencies tho via the app. If I did get a unit with the app I'd hope that if I limited the effect to the Schroeder frequency type setting that even DEQ would abide by that. Hard to get actual details about exactly what happens as post-Audyssey specifics have always been limited in actual information of what exactly was adjusted and by how much (supposedly to guard proprietary info). Yes, I do often use DEQ; I'd like to experiment with limiting the Audyssey function to below Schroeder only.
Yep. I can say from my experience the app has been a great experience. It pushed me towards fixing some issues in my room, adding acoustic panels, more optimal speaker placement rather than relying on EQ. I had Paradigm Monitors prior to my Klipsch RP’s and when I setup my RP’s I was surprised that they sounded the same as my Paradigms, of course that’s from EQ doing it’s job. I’m hearing things in movies I’ve seen many times that I’ve never heard before.

I will post the response from Audyssey.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
No, through Ask Audyssey Zendesk. I figured it would only apply to the corrected frequencies but I was told “ The app only affects the room correction filter, DEQ does not change. DEQ will be the same, it will still raise high frequencies.
Let's assume Zendesk is right, DEQ should only boost the amount needed to compensate for the average human's loss in LF and HF sensitivity. Audyssey used to publish their target curve (varies with volume and freq) based on their studies/research but even if we can find that curve, we don't know how close can the real world results in your room can get to the target. Though chances are good that for HF, it is easy to get very close it, unless the LF that is very much dependent on the specific rooms. I understand you are very familiar with Audyssey just by using it for many years. I have been using it since my first XT equipped 1912, 4308, followed by 2 Marantz prepros and then back to Denon, so I also know the ins and outs, and that there are a lot of misconceptions out there.

I do think the important things to keep in mind is that DEQ is not designed/implemented to boost for the sake of boost, but to compensate for the average person's loss in sensitivity to the low range (and high, to lesser extent) frequencies at lower spl. And, you cannot do it with manual EQ because manual EQ will boost/attenuate by the same amount at all output level.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
You misstated something here?
The graph you posted shows DEQ effecting the highs above ~9kHz.
You are right, I did, and thank you for alerting me. I forgot to include the HF because he EQ up to 300 Hz only, but it sounded like DEQ would not be affected by the EQ'ed range. It is usable and probably does work the same way as long as Audyssey is "On".
 
R

RTG

Audioholic
Let's assume Zendesk is right, DEQ should only boost the amount needed to compensate for the average human's loss in LF and HF sensitivity. Audyssey used to publish their target curve based on their studies/research but even if we can find that curve, we don't know how close can the real world results in your room can get to the target. Though chances are good that for HF, it is easy to get very close it, unless the LF that is very much dependent on the specific rooms. I understand you are very familiar with Audyssey just by using it for many years. I have been using it since my first XT equipped 1912, 4308, followed by 2 Marantz prepros and then back to Denon, so I also know the ins and outs, and that there are a lot of misconceptions out there.

I do think the important things to keep in mind is that DEQ is not designed/implemented to boost for the sake of boost, but to compensate for the average person's loss in sensitivity to the low range frequencies at lower spl. And, you cannot do it with manual EQ because manual EQ will boost/attenuate by the same amount at all output level.
For sure. I’m not knocking DEQ at all, I think it’s the best of its kind and works well. After all I used it for years but now that I have a dedicated room and took extra care with room treatments etc I don’t think EQ including DEQ works as well for my situation. It makes things sound worse. When I turn down the volume I don’t want more bass or louder surrounds. I started asking myself why I even bought my speakers if I’m changing the way they sound with EQ. When it’s off and EQ is used for the bass everything sounds more open and lifelike, more balanced. And Atmos has never sounded so good in my room.
 

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