Crown amplifiers vs. other amps in the audiophile world

[RichB]

One would assume that a PA amp could focus on the a limited frequency range and can have lower signal to noise and higher distortion.

- Rich

 

[JerryLove]

One would assume that a PA amp could focus on the a limited frequency range and can have lower signal to noise and higher distortion.

Know what happens when you assume? Also, there's no reason for it. Here's a link with their downloadable spec sheet: https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/cts-600

The FR is basically flat (+/- 0.1db) from 20hz-20khz
The THD is <0.1% (full rated power, 20 Hz - 20 kHz)
The SNR is 105 dB

What non-PA amp should we compare looking for better numbers?

 

[RichB]

Know what happens when you assume? Also, there's no reason for it. Here's a link with their downloadable spec sheet: https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/cts-600

The FR is basically flat (+/- 0.1db) from 20hz-20khz
The THD is <0.1% (full rated power, 20 Hz - 20 kHz)
The SNR is 105 dB

What non-PA amp should we compare looking for better numbers?

1) PA = Public Announcement (just kidding)
2) Signal to noise at full rated power is often deceiving. At 1 watt what is it?
3) What is the linearity into load, historically, Class-D amps have shown increased distortion and non-linearity into load.
4) Lacks triggers
5) Has fans.
6) It is discontinued.
7) I am convinced, I will be replacing my amps with blenders

- Rich

 

[lovinthehd]

1) PA = Public Announcement (just kidding)
2) Signal to noise at full rated power is often deceiving. At 1 watt what is it?
3) What is the linearity into load, historically, Class-D amps have shown increased distortion and non-linearity into load.
4) Lacks triggers
5) Has fans.
6) It is discontinued.
7) I am convinced, I will be replacing my amps with blenders

- Rich

May as well avoid many consumer amps for lack of gain controls or clipping indicators.. .triggers aren't all that necessary, and the current Crown XLS do have triggers. Got anything on the one watt thing? Or linearity particularly?

 

[GrimSurfer]

Know what happens when you assume? Also, there's no reason for it. Here's a link with their downloadable spec sheet: https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/cts-600

The FR is basically flat (+/- 0.1db) from 20hz-20khz
The THD is <0.1% (full rated power, 20 Hz - 20 kHz)
The SNR is 105 dB

What non-PA amp should we compare looking for better numbers?

THD of 0.1% is $hitty. It equates to an audible -60 dB. And notice how they rate it at full power? It often rises at partial power in a Class D.

IM distortion is the same (0.1%, -60 dB). Pretty bad compared with a good home amplifier.

The SNR is measured at the outputs and doesn't include fan noise which is, you know, noise.

 

[everettT]

I can speak to a 3 or 4 generations of the xls series and noise is non existant. On the current models I only know if the fan is spinning while visible thru the chassis.

 

[GrimSurfer]

I can speak to a 3 or 4 generations of the xls series and noise is non existant. On the current models I only know if the fan is spinning while visible thru the chassis.

A noiseless (non existent noise) fan? That would be remarkable, and worthy of a prize in physics.

Perhaps you mean inaudible at a certain distance. Or masked when playing music.

Do you ever notice that subs for home use don't have cooling fans? Why do you think that is? Noise, maybe?

 

[everettT]

A noiseless (non existent noise) fan? That would be remarkable, and worthy of a prize in physics.

Perhaps you mean inaudible at a certain distance. Or masked when playing music.

Do you ever notice that subs for home use don't use a fan? Why do you think that is? Noise, maybe?

Of course, like 4 inches.

 

[GrimSurfer]

There are reasons why things are the way they are. Some people don't always understand the reasons. Others wish to ignore the reasons. A much smaller group refutes evidence of it, like manufacturer's recommended use or specifications. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[M Code]

Because NPN and PNP pairs with very similar performance are available, quasi-complementary topology has fallen out of favor. To my understanding: this was the defactor for most of Class B / AB's life.

Can you point me at some scholarly work supporting the claim?

My comments are derived from personal experience working many, many years with certain well-noted amplifier/mixing-board/system engineers that have designed/developed/delivered some of the more extensive, complex pro-audio systems for some of the top drawing concerts...

So "pro-audio" is low "resolution" and low "qualty"? Care to support? I can name a pro speaker or two we can use as reference if you like.

Keep in mind...
In our comments, we are referencing the Crown DC300 that goes back >20 years...
Additionally in later years there has been significant progress for greatly improved pro-audio loudspeaker systems, using high-tech materials, computer/digital aided development tools. Plus the realization of certain major rock groups that demanded a final, higher quality concert sound delivery..

Just my $0.02...

 

[GrimSurfer]

In our comments, we are referencing the Crown DC300 that goes back >20 years...

Not in my comments.

What I offer is all based on manufacturer data, such as specs and statements on intended use.

One might argue how it's collected (all manufacturers over state performance to a certain degree),how it applies (audible noise vs inaudible noise, even order harmonics vs odd order harmonics),or where it applies (quiet private residence or noisy public venue). But it's impossible to rationalize everything away to assuage a previous purchasing decision or ego.

Data is data. Differences exist. Measurable ones at the very least. Audible ones at the very worst. Safety ones too. Not for every piece of gear on the planet but enough times to prompt one to examine the data.

Reality sucks at times. But it remains reality whether one chooses to accept it or not.

 

[JerryLove]

2) Signal to noise at full rated power is often deceiving. At 1 watt what is it?

I don't know. Do you know? Do you have data on this or comparable amps that show a problem distinct to (crown/classD/PAamps)?

3) What is the linearity into load, historically, Class-D amps have shown increased distortion and non-linearity into load.

THD at load has already been described; or are you using some other definition of "load"? Can you reprhase or describe mathematically? Can you show an example, and a counter-example with a non-Class-D of similar age/price?

4) Lacks triggers
5) Has fans.
6) It is discontinued.
7) I am convinced, I will be replacing my amps with blenders

These are ergonomics issues; though the noise floor on blenders is pretty high; as long as your shake is rich enough (or your margarita high enough proof) you won't care

 

[JerryLove]

What I offer is all based on manufacturer data, such as specs and statements on intended use.

I must have missed where you put up specs and compared them to a reference "good amp". Can you link me to that?

"Intended use" is not a valid argument. It asserts I can't use a wrench from my car repair kit on my bike because it wasn't "intended use".

But it's impossible to rationalize everything away to assuage a previous purchasing decision or ego.

You are attempting a straw-man argument by implication.

You know it's impossible to rationalize away every proof that a pro-audio amp is just as valid to the task just because someone spent more-money on a non-pro-amp and now needs to justify *that* purchasing decision.

I don't own a Crown amp (and my only current class D is a $40amp I use on my computer speakers). I'm betting you do own a "not PA" amp. So... I wonder who is actually harmed by such a logical fallacy.

Data is data. Differences exist. Measurable ones at the very least. Audible ones at the very worst. Safety ones too. Not for every piece of gear on the planet but enough times to prompt one to examine the data.

Data I'm still waiting on you to present.

 

[JerryLove]

THD of 0.1% is $hitty. It equates to an audible -60 dB. And notice how they rate it at full power? It often rises at partial power in a Class D.

Most home audio gear measures max power as the point where THD hits 10%.

IM distortion is the same (0.1%, -60 dB). Pretty bad compared with a good home amplifier.

1) Establish that 0.1% is audible.
2) Give an example of "a good home audio amplifier".

Would a McIntosh count as "good"? https://www.stereophile.com/content/mcintosh-mc275-power-amplifier-measurements

How about a Krell? https://www.stereophile.com/content/krell-ksa-50s-power-amplifier-measurements

Emotiva? https://www.stereophile.com/content/emotiva-xpa-gen3-two-channel-power-amplifier-measurements

The SNR is measured at the outputs and doesn't include fan noise which is, you know, noise.

You know what grasping as straws is, right?

 

[GrimSurfer]

I must have missed where you put up specs and compared them to a reference "good amp". Can you link me to that?

"Intended use" is not a valid argument. It asserts I can't use a wrench from my car repair kit on my bike because it wasn't "intended use".


You are attempting a straw-man argument by implication.

You know it's impossible to rationalize away every proof that a pro-audio amp is just as valid to the task just because someone spent more-money on a non-pro-amp and now needs to justify *that* purchasing decision.

I don't own a Crown amp (and my only current class D is a $40amp I use on my computer speakers). I'm betting you do own a "not PA" amp. So... I wonder who is actually harmed by such a logical fallacy.


Data I'm still waiting on you to present.

Sorry, Jer. Not playing stump the chump with you today.

Specified use is relevant when comparing two things... one that is used as intended and the other which is not. A Lockheed C130 is designed and specified a a cargo aircraft. An F-15 is designed and specified as an air superiority fighter.

You might be able to claim that sticking a gun blister on a C-130 will mean it can be used as an air superiority fight, but it will not perform this role as well as its specified use. You can remove equipment from an F-15 and call it a cargo aircraft, but it won't perform this role as well as its specified use.

This is not a difficult concept to grasp. A twelve year old can get it.

You're right about me not owning a PA amp. My amps are for home use, not public address. Why? Because I understand and adhere to the very simple and logical concept of buying gear that best fits its intended purpose.

 

[RichB]

I don't know. Do you know? Do you have data on this or comparable amps that show a problem distinct to (crown/classD/PAamps)?


THD at load has already been described; or are you using some other definition of "load"? Can you reprhase or describe mathematically? Can you show an example, and a counter-example with a non-Class-D of similar age/price?


These are ergonomics issues; though the noise floor on blenders is pretty high; as long as your shake is rich enough (or your margarita high enough proof) you won't care

For load issues you could start with Audioholics:

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-classes

Here is a detailed review of the Crown XLS-1052 with measurements of power and noise:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-crown-xls-1502-amp.6062/

Buy whatever your want. These are not my cup of tea for usability (no triggers), ergonomics, and aesthetics.

- Rich

 

[JerryLove]

For load issues you could start with Audioholics:

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-classes

Thank you very much for the link. It doesn't seem to describe the presence of load issues though. Here's what I found in the article looking under the Class D section for "load".

"While designs that do not utilize feedback at this stage can have their response tuned to a particular impedance, when such amplifiers are presented with a complex load (i.e. a real world loudspeaker as opposed to a resistor),frequency response can vary considerably depending on the loudspeaker load it sees. Feedback stabilizes this issue, ensuring a smooth response into complex loads. "

"Smooth response into complex loads" doesn't sound like an issue to me.

Here is a detailed review of the Crown XLS-1052 with measurements of power and noise:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-crown-xls-1502-amp.6062/

It looks like 0.1% was the highest THD, dropping to < 0.01% near max spec'd power.

This does validate the claim that Class D (this one at least) has higher THD at lower power; but the worst value is 0.1%.

Buy whatever your want. These are not my cup of tea for usability (no triggers),ergonomics, and aesthetics.

Nor mine. There's a reason I don't own any. I don't plan on buying any either. Many of the same reasons (I have had thoughts about what it might take to take the core of like a Crown pro amp and put it in a prettier case and add external triggers).

 

[JerryLove]

Sorry, Jer. Not playing stump the chump with you today.

Specified use is relevant when comparing two things... one that is used as intended and the other which is not. A Lockheed C130 is designed and specified a a cargo aircraft. An F-15 is designed and specified as an air superiority fighter.

So are you playing or not?

It's interesting that C130s are used for both transporting people (as opposed to cargo) and as ground attack aircraft (

)

They are used in hurricane hunting (https://www.hurricanehunters.com/plane.html)

But you know... it's impossible that they are good at it because, well, they were intended for cargo.

You might be able to claim that sticking a gun blister on a C-130 will mean it can be used as an air superiority fight, but it will not perform this role as well as its specified use. You can remove equipment from an F-15 and call it a cargo aircraft, but it won't perform this role as well as its specified use.

This is not a difficult concept to grasp. A twelve year old can get it.

I try not to rely on 12-year-olds for accurate perspectives.

Your posts are really feeling desperate. Your own sig mentions measurement... so show me the measurements supporting your position.

You're right about me not owning a PA amp. My amps are for home use, not public address. Why? Because I understand and adhere to the very simple and logical concept of buying gear that best fits its intended purpose.

So you would have reason to justify post-hoc your fiscal decisions.

 

[GrimSurfer]

SPECTRE is used for a very specific support mission. and where did I say "ground attack"?

I didn't. You're reaching.

Any idea why 2 volt, Jerry? It's really obvious.

Post hoc? You missed the commas.

I don't care what you or anyone thinks of my gear. That's why it's not in my sig, a feature of my posts, or a point of defensiveness. My gear and my "tackle" are two different things. I don't confuse one with the other.

 

[JerryLove]

I have a milkshake maker designed for commercial restaurant use in my house. Therefore my milkshakes are bad?!?
What is a *requirement* of a PA amplifier that prevents it from being a good home-use amplifier?
In what way does "designed for PA" require that the resolution be low?
Do you have some science or measurements which objectively establish "low resolution" and "low quality"? Can you even give a falsifiable definition of those terms? How do we measure "resolution"? How do we measure "quality"?
In what way does "designed for PA" require that the quality be low?
What non-PA amp should we compare looking for better numbers?
I must have missed where you put up specs and compared them to a reference "good amp". Can you link me to that?
1) Establish that 0.1% is audible.
2) Give an example of "a good home audio amplifier".