Crown amplifiers vs. other amps in the audiophile world

[PENG]

I want to utilize my dsd/cd archive through a budget, preferably an all in one budget component. An audiolab 83000 cd/dac/pre seems now as a good/budget option so far, what do you think?

IMO it will be good, but there are other options that can do the same or better for less.

 

[ski2xblack]

Plus, my relatively hard to drive speakers are I think for the first time are effortlessly being driven by this amp (despite the low output of nad's preout).

Welcome to the world of unclipped power! (Goes to show that even the very respectable power of the NAD may not have been enough.) Your NAD can swing +/-7 v unclipped from the pre outs. It should be more than enough to drive the Yamaha to copious levels.

 

[Dellafago]

Welcome to the world of unclipped power! (Goes to show that even the very respectable power of the NAD may not have been enough.) Your NAD can swing +/-7 v unclipped from the pre outs. It should be more than enough to drive the Yamaha to copious levels.

I could not find anywhere the rca preout voltage for nad c372. Could 7v you mentioned be the output voltage of another model through a xlr preout perhaps? On the other hand from the specs of some other nad amps indicating 1.2v rca pre output, I thought that the rca pre output of c372 might be 1.2 volt.

 

[lovinthehd]

Does the Yamaha amp have clipping indicators? Can you achieve clipping with the NAD's output? If so, it's sufficient....

 

[PENG]

I could not find anywhere the rca preout voltage for nad c372. Could 7v you mentioned be the output voltage of another model through a xlr preout perhaps? On the other hand from the specs of some other nad amps indicating 1.2v rca pre output, I thought that the rca pre output of c372 might be 1.2 volt.

I really don't know how many times I have to repeat this (sorry don't mean to be rude, just frustrated), that one cannot know what exactly those pre-out voltage specs provided in the manufacturers data sheets, manuals etc actually mean, unless they also provide other pertinent info such as the test load impedance, THD+N, frequency range, continuous, average, or peak values, what (if any) test protocol and/or standards they followed in obtaining the figures.

It is entirely possible, for example, that the Yamaha RX-A30X0's rated pre-out voltage of 1V (under conditions blablabla), if tested by Gene using his AH test protocol in his lab, could actually output higher unclip voltage than another brand's AVR that specified a much higher voltage but under different conditions or stating nothing but just something like preout voltage: 7V, without telling you anything else.

Even if one wants to compare maximum preout voltages using actual test results, one will have to stick to one particular lab, preferably by the same person. That would include measurements done by Gene of Audiohoics, and JA of Stereophile and to certain extent, and AVTech/Miller audio research.

Now back to the NAC C372, if you can trust Steophile's, below is the link to JA's measurements.

NAD C372 preamp voltage gain

Based on that review, the C372 has a preamp voltage gain of 9.05 dB, that means if you input 1V to the preamp section, you get about 2.83V. Now that does not mean the NAD can output 2.83V unclipped, we do not know that because JA did not say anything about testing the preamp section until it clipped.

 

[PENG]

Does the Yamaha amp have clipping indicators? Can you achieve clipping with the NAD's output? If so, it's sufficient....

FYI, according to the data sheet, the NAC C372's input sensitivity (for rated output) is 350 mV, based on 9 dB of gain that means the internal preamp output would be about 1V, to yield rated output of 150W.

 

[ski2xblack]

The NAD amp takes 770 mV for full rated 'continuous' power, but can put out quite a bit more clean power above that. Presumably they designed the pre amp stage to provide the requisite voltage to drive the amp to those crazy IHF dynamic power figures.

Anywho, I've used my own C372 to drive numerous pro amps and never had any issues. My home brew amps that require >2v for full power never had any trouble being fed by the NAD either.

I did have issues with the NAD itself, unfortunately (heat related). May Dellafago fare better in this regard, and find a suitable replacement before it gives up the ghost.

 

[Dellafago]

Thanks for your valuable explanations. Parallel to all your comments, I did not have problem in driving new pro amp with the nad's preout. Today I had more time to listen to/test the new amp, invent/change different settings, etc. And by setting the amp's gain levels to 3 o'clock, and maxing the nad's preout knob, I noticed no sign of insufficient driving. By such setting, I reached the loudest levels that my speaker allows (without distortion) around 2-4 o'clock of the preamp's volume knob (depending on the recording) which I believe should be acceptable. I should though herein mention that there are various user comments, discussions that I came across regarding failure of various home audio preamps in sufficiently feeding pa amps (even crown new xls series amps have inroduced an alternative low gain) seems to me now a bit interesting as per my herein reading/understanding that preouts' voltages should in general be adequate to feed amps.

 

[Dellafago]

Does the Yamaha amp have clipping indicators? Can you achieve clipping with the NAD's output? If so, it's sufficient....

Yes it has, and they clip when the volume is at moderate levels. It clips in a loud passage of a song even volume is set lower. It is not continiously clipping. Whether clipping or not does not have effect to the sound quality by the way. I believe it clips when the power amp receives a signal above a certain level, looks to me like the way equalisers clip. It clips rapidly in line with the song.

 

[PENG]

Yes it has, and they clip when the volume is at moderate levels. It clips in a loud passage of a song even volume is set lower. It is not continiously clipping. Whether clipping or not does not have effect to the sound quality by the way. I believe it clips when the power amp receives a signal above a certain level, looks to me like the way equalisers clip. It clips rapidly in line with the song.

That is possible, but I think more likely the power amp section itself clipped because there is much less reason for Yamaha to make the preamp section the weak link from cost stand point.

What you read on forums about pre-out voltage being too low are true to certain point but imo mostly hearsay spread by people who don't understand the electrical terminologies, jargons etc., let alone the theories. Just go through the inventory of measurements right here by Audioholics you will see the vast majority of the AVR/AVP tested were found capable to drive typical power amps including Crown proamps beyond their clipping point.

 

[cujobob]

I see a common trend of people suggesting that because they can't detect different amplifiers in a blind test means that there is no difference in sound quality. While I agree that 'audiophiles' are strongly influenced by placebo effect, I think it's too simple to state that if you can't pass a blind test then there are no differences.

A person can only retain accurate memory of what they hear for something like 30 seconds. A blind test would have to go back and forth every few seconds with the exact same piece of audio and even detecting a difference that quickly would be awfully difficult. Beyond that, there are other issues with blind testing we are all aware of.

Now, that being said, I do believe a few things are at play when it comes to amps. As John Curl has said, the higher order harmonics can cause sound to become unpleasing and basically...you don't want to listen to it. Earl Geddes is highly skeptical of the effect an amplifier plays into sound quality, but did test for crossover distortion specifically (and also mentioned the limitations others have had in testing it because they have to remove the noise which alters the measurements) as he believed it was a key factor.

I'm excited to check out these Crown amps, though. Class D gets a bad name and I think a lot of it is because of poor engineering. A lot of youtube channels have done testing on Class D boards that are popular and found they put out significantly less wattage than claimed. Most amps that are shorting you on watts are going to sound pretty bad. Even many claiming something like 10-15 WPC are really only giving us like 5-7 WPC which will not be enough for most speakers even at moderate volumes.

We really need a better understanding for what differences the human ear can perceive. Then, engineers can focus on what specs to build around and focus on. Can't wait to try this one out.

 

[PENG]

I see a common trend of people suggesting that because they can't detect different amplifiers in a blind test means that there is no difference in sound quality. While I agree that 'audiophiles' are strongly influenced by placebo effect, I think it's too simple to state that if you can't pass a blind test then there are no differences.

A person can only retain accurate memory of what they hear for something like 30 seconds. A blind test would have to go back and forth every few seconds with the exact same piece of audio and even detecting a difference that quickly would be awfully difficult. Beyond that, there are other issues with blind testing we are all aware of.

Now, that being said, I do believe a few things are at play when it comes to amps. As John Curl has said, the higher order harmonics can cause sound to become unpleasing and basically...you don't want to listen to it. Earl Geddes is highly skeptical of the effect an amplifier plays into sound quality, but did test for crossover distortion specifically (and also mentioned the limitations others have had in testing it because they have to remove the noise which alters the measurements) as he believed it was a key factor.

I'm excited to check out these Crown amps, though. Class D gets a bad name and I think a lot of it is because of poor engineering. A lot of youtube channels have done testing on Class D boards that are popular and found they put out significantly less wattage than claimed. Most amps that are shorting you on watts are going to sound pretty bad. Even many claiming something like 10-15 WPC are really only giving us like 5-7 WPC which will not be enough for most speakers even at moderate volumes.

We really need a better understanding for what differences the human ear can perceive. Then, engineers can focus on what specs to build around and focus on. Can't wait to try this one out.

I bet the people you referred to won't argue with your points but I believe most of them are simply saying if you can't even pass a level matched blind test (even just simple blind test), then any difference would be subtle at best, not as claimed by some to be night and day, huge, hearing details they never heard before etc. There are people with extreme views on both sides.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd readily agree there are probably differences in sound quality in amps out there, but if there's no audible benefit, for me at least, then it doesn't matter (and difference doesn't always mean better either). It seems for the price these Crowns are extremely hard to beat. I don't find differences in amps worth fretting over for the most part either, its more about a power/features to price thing.

 

[Hetfield]

I used to use Crown amps in an HT setup when I used to be into separates, and they are fantastic. Serious power for much less money. Yeah they don't look beautiful like a Classe or Parasound amp but to me, I say who cares. I wanted bang for the buck, and Crown was big bang for the buck. I actually want to go back separates in the near future and I will be doing Crown amps again, no hesitation whatsoever from me.

 

[STC]

I wanted more than 250Watt for Sound Lab speakers and tried the CrownXLS.

Classe vs Crown here. You decide.

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[KenM10759]

I had thought it to be a futile exercise to compare speaker output with a YouTube video, now this. What's next, comparing headphones?

 

[lovinthehd]

I wanted more than 250Watt for Sound Lab speakers and tried the CrownXLS.

Classe vs Crown here. You decide.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I decided (a) wouldn't be stuff I'd listen to and (b) it all sounds just like my laptop's speakers.

 

[STC]

I had thought it to be a futile exercise to compare speaker output with a YouTube video, now this. What's next, comparing headphones?

Well....I have the original 24/96 and I still get excuses.


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[Vacas]

The HARMAN Crown engineers wearing MARK LEVINSON shirts will tell you that their Crown amps will sound just as good as any consumer amps on the market. Peter Aczel and The Audio Critic would agree.

I have installed Crown XLS 2500 into my system. They sound great just like any high quality amps.

They look ugly to me, so that's the only reason I sold them. But they sound great and are extremely quiet, cool temperature, and can output copious power.

I own one of cts series 600.. simply outstanding dynamics and overall stagging.. though it is designed for DJ yet it can be installed in home environment where general requirment is 300wrms/channel and above. I am running Bose 901 series 6 on this cts and result is owsome...

 

[Vacas]

Hmmm... well this is really an interesting thread. Infact i was looking for the same question and thanks to OP for posting it.
I bought my crown lately for 160$ shipped to drive my Bose 901. Earlier i was feeding them 100 wrms through my Adcom GFA 7400 but i guess 901 still required more power and potential to deliver what was expected. I found this crown CTS 600 without consulting any audiophile if it shud be the one amp with 300 wrms/channel. I bought it, plugged it, and boom. Comparing with my adcom, CTS 600 had a very warm natural sound but it started giving clipping signal to -10db when my volume was somewhere between 72 to 75 at my Denon x4400h. There i wondered if i am actually retrieving 300 watts of power to speakers that may require power amp upto 450 wrms as it was not that loud as it should be. Or purhaps sound was too much natural that i couldnt noticed it went too much high to start giving clipping signal. Fan noise was minimum but couldn't be spared in silent passages..
Then i started looking for crown amps on internet and what i found that people do not recommend PA amps in consumer place or at home ambiance. Thats heart breaking but not becaise i spent on it and hardly few people are talking about it in positive terms but that it has no place in majority of home app users..
As far as i rate crown cts 600, sound was good but left me lill shaky about its clipping signal.. so i unhooked it and started using my Adcom again...