Audio terms BS and not BS

[Bucknekked]

Okay I didn't realize you were asked a question. I have been here for a long time and I think I know mtry's posting style and am sure he meant well. This is most likely a case of misunderstanding.

Peng,
If there's a longstanding member of the forum that posts great answers, avoids argumentation, and really understands his subject matter, it would be you. That doesn't mean you're the end all expert, but, as a contributing member on the AH you're pretty dang reliable and neutral in how you respond. I think you stuck your toe in the water on this thread in a non judgemental way.

What surprises me is that this thread is still going at all. It doesn't surprise me that it has turned sour because when many folks who come here feel the least bit challenged they puff up like a toad and start croaking. One puffy toad croaks at another and pretty soon its a mess to read.

Peng, mtrycrafts, killdozzer, and others who have written great posts over the years perhaps should just take a deep breath on this thread. It may have stopped being useful several pages ago.

I love discussions on Snake Oil and what may be BS terms. This thread has sort of decomposed in to just BS

 

[shadyJ]

Peng,
If there's a longstanding member of the forum that posts great answers, avoids argumentation, and really understands his subject matter, it would be you. That doesn't mean you're the end all expert, but, as a contributing member on the AH you're pretty dang reliable and neutral in how you respond. I think you stuck your toe in the water on this thread in a non judgemental way.

What surprises me is that this thread is still going at all. It doesn't surprise me that it has turned sour because when many folks who come here feel the least bit challenged they puff up like a toad and start croaking. One puffy toad croaks at another and pretty soon its a mess to read.

Peng, mtrycrafts, killdozzer, and others who have written great posts over the years perhaps should just take a deep breath on this thread. It may have stopped being useful several pages ago.

I love discussions on Snake Oil and what may be BS terms. This thread has sort of decomposed in to just BS

Agreed Buck!

Getting back to the original post, here is a word that is a sure omen of nonsense ahoy: 'microdynamics.' Microdynamics is an audio quality that exists solely in the listener's imagination.

 

[Trell]

Agreed Buck!

Getting back to the original post, here is a word that is a sure omen of nonsense ahoy: 'microdynamics.' Microdynamics is an audio quality that exists solely in the listener's imagination.

I wonder when the first reviewer realizes that 'microdynamics' is such an obsolete concept that he will use the much more modern and future proof concept of 'nanodynamics' in reviews.

 

[shadyJ]

I wonder when the first reviewer realizes that 'microdynamics' is such an obsolete concept that he will use the much more modern and future proof concept of 'nanodynamics' in reviews.

Dude... don't tempt me..

 

[Irvrobinson]

I was talking about capacitors that form part of a charge pump in a power supply circuit. These operate like a reservoir, feeding power to a circuit when the transformer cannot fully meet a time-based or current-based demand.

What you refer to as "smoothing capacitors" sound to me like those associated used the output stage of a transistor circuit to damp oscillation and transients.

Conventional (Class A/AB) solid state amplifiers do not work as you are describing. When the AC power comes off the power cable at say 60Hz/120v AC, it goes to the power transformer, which for solid state amps will result in an output lower than 120v; say 60v, though it varies by application. The power supply for the amplification stages are DC, so the AC current goes through a rectifier to get it to 0Hz. During the AC/DC conversion there will be times when the input voltage is zero, so you need one or more capacitors that will discharge and fill the current gap that is required to make constant current DC. Without going into a long diatribe on the difficulties of making really good DC from AC at high current levels, there are side-effects of the process called ripple, and the caps also provide a filtering function, but remember, all of this is in the power supply domain, not in the signal path. This is why the bank of capacitors in the power supply are often called "smoothing caps". And because they operate to bolster current at the zero volt crossing point, for high power amps with low impedance loads they need to store a lot of energy. But all of this is about AC/DC conversion, and none of it regards the transformer not being able to meet current demands.

Capacitors in the output stage of the signal path are coupling capacitors, which act as a high-pass filter to eliminate DC.

 

[GrimSurfer]

You're entitled to your beliefs, Irv.

I didn't use their term smoothing caps, which play the role you have described. I clarified my post by talking about another valid use for capacitors which manufacturers do feature in their power supplies for the very purpose I've described.

I could link to various articles on this use, but that would only strengthen your resolve to challenge them.

People who wish to learn more can google charge pump AND power supply. Those who don't can continue to live with partial truths.

To each their own.

 

[VonMagnum]

I believe some of the caps in question typically go between the battery and the amplifier in a car setup. This is probably more to compensate the alternator/battery capacity than the amplifier itself. However, as this article points out (https://axleaddict.com/cars/Car-Audio-CAPACITORS-Why-They-DONT-Work), it may not work quite as you think it will since the source of the current is supposedly limited as it is and will need to recharge the capacitor when it drains (i.e. it's going to the cap instead of your amp at that point) so unless the audio event in question is pretty small/momentary with much less demand afterwards (certainly possible for bass kicks I suppose), you might do more harm than good. I'm guessing it helps some situations and harms others. It would be very content dependent. Since it's mostly used with subwoofers in mind, small kicks could benefit. Longer ones could starve your main speaker amps. You're probably better off with a larger alternator.

Inside the amplifier there are filtering caps and there are storage caps in any given design. You can take those out and upgrade them to better quality and/or higher capacity. The designers probably choose the caps based on the projected cost of the overall amplifier design. High end amps get better caps for both filtering and storage. Large capacity caps (or banks of smaller ones as they can respond faster than large electrolytic ones) aren't cheap and thus it seems like it should certainly be possible to upgrade them in lesser designs. You would need to know what you're doing, of course. Is it worth the bother? I dunno. Some people live for that sort of tinkering. I'd prefer to get an amplifier with a larger continuous capacity, personally.

This thread has some interesting conversation and info on the subject: https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/capacitors-in-amps-can-they-be-upgraded.56721/

I noticed Cary Audio will upgrade your caps for you on a Cary brand amp (for a price), although they seem to be more about supposed "quality" than increasing headroom: https://www.caryaudio.com/upgrades-and-modifications/

 

[lovinthehd]

Another term that in audio is a sure sign of nonsense lately is "quantum".

 

[VonMagnum]

Ah, but two different realities exist at the Quantum level! (https://www.livescience.com/65029-dueling-reality-photons.html) Maybe in one, things sound better.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I believe some of the caps in question typically go between the battery and the amplifier in a car setup. This is probably more to compensate the alternator/battery capacity than the amplifier itself. However, as this article points out (https://axleaddict.com/cars/Car-Audio-CAPACITORS-Why-They-DONT-Work), it may not work quite as you think it will since the source of the current is supposedly limited as it is and will need to recharge the capacitor when it drains (i.e. it's going to the cap instead of your amp at that point) so unless the audio event in question is pretty small/momentary with much less demand afterwards (certainly possible for bass kicks I suppose), you might do more harm than good. I'm guessing it helps some situations and harms others. It would be very content dependent. Since it's mostly used with subwoofers in mind, small kicks could benefit. Longer ones could starve your main speaker amps. You're probably better off with a larger alternator.

Inside the amplifier there are filtering caps and there are storage caps in any given design. You can take those out and upgrade them to better quality and/or higher capacity. The designers probably choose the caps based on the projected cost of the overall amplifier design. High end amps get better caps for both filtering and storage. Large capacity caps (or banks of smaller ones as they can respond faster than large electrolytic ones) aren't cheap and thus it seems like it should certainly be possible to upgrade them in lesser designs. You would need to know what you're doing, of course. Is it worth the bother? I dunno. Some people live for that sort of tinkering. I'd prefer to get an amplifier with a larger continuous capacity, personally.

This thread has some interesting conversation and info on the subject: https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/capacitors-in-amps-can-they-be-upgraded.56721/

I noticed Cary Audio will upgrade your caps for you on a Cary brand amp (for a price), although they seem to be more about supposed "quality" than increasing headroom: https://www.caryaudio.com/upgrades-and-modifications/

The automotive devices are indeed intended for use in the 12vdc mains path as so-called "stiffeners", to maintain voltage for high-power amps. I'm unfamiliar with this application, not being into car audio myself, but I do know that their use is very controversial. Many installers apparently consider these "ultra-caps" to be snake oil, like we do some power conditioners. It is obvious that some people think they look cool, and the concept sounds cool to the non-technical. I read a comment a long time ago who noted that ultra-caps had very high sales margins for retailers, and, like some cables, might explain why some installers push them. I agree that a higher capacity alternator and one or more higher capacity batteries are probably a better alternative. Of course, car audio amps are easier... the mains are DC; and that's one reason why they can be more compact for a given power level. No AC/DC conversion required.

 

[GrimSurfer]

I believe some of the caps in question typically go between the battery and the amplifier in a car setup. This is probably more to compensate the alternator/battery capacity than the amplifier itself. However, as this article points out (https://axleaddict.com/cars/Car-Audio-CAPACITORS-Why-They-DONT-Work),it may not work quite as you think it will since the source of the current is supposedly limited as it is and will need to recharge the capacitor when it drains (i.e. it's going to the cap instead of your amp at that point) so unless the audio event in question is pretty small/momentary with much less demand afterwards (certainly possible for bass kicks I suppose),you might do more harm than good. I'm guessing it helps some situations and harms others. It would be very content dependent. Since it's mostly used with subwoofers in mind, small kicks could benefit. Longer ones could starve your main speaker amps. You're probably better off with a larger alternator.

Inside the amplifier there are filtering caps and there are storage caps in any given design. You can take those out and upgrade them to better quality and/or higher capacity. The designers probably choose the caps based on the projected cost of the overall amplifier design. High end amps get better caps for both filtering and storage. Large capacity caps (or banks of smaller ones as they can respond faster than large electrolytic ones) aren't cheap and thus it seems like it should certainly be possible to upgrade them in lesser designs. You would need to know what you're doing, of course. Is it worth the bother? I dunno. Some people live for that sort of tinkering. I'd prefer to get an amplifier with a larger continuous capacity, personally.

This thread has some interesting conversation and info on the subject: https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/capacitors-in-amps-can-they-be-upgraded.56721/

I noticed Cary Audio will upgrade your caps for you on a Cary brand amp (for a price),although they seem to be more about supposed "quality" than increasing headroom: https://www.caryaudio.com/upgrades-and-modifications/

I think this describes both uses of capacitors in a practical and objective manner.

The next time anyone reads a product description for an amp of reasonable quality, look for the part where they link their designs' total capacitors capacity (play on words ;-) and their amps' ability to handle peak power demands. They're not talking about ripple, their talking about sheer power.

What they fail to mention, in some cases, is that extra capacitors are used in lieu of a more robust transformer. This is because it's cheaper to make, ship, install, and reship capacitors than a much larger transformer.

This is what makes manufacturer's claims about capacitors' role in their power supplies such a slippery slope... they're needed to a degree. Beyond that, they're indicative of lighter weight, lower cost transformers than might be needed to do the job right in the first place.

Further still, they can (if a manufacturer so chooses) support the delivery peak power deliveries at very low cost... until those caps wear out, as they all do regardless of whether they are of the electrolytic type (inexpensive, prone to wear, but with high discharge rates) or film type (more expensive, longer lasting, but with lower discharge rates).

The devil is in the detail.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Another term that in audio is a sure sign of nonsense lately is "quantum".

Excellent choice. When I see quantum in a manufacturer's ad, it makes me think that their product claims to be "good" AND "crap" at the same time.

Kind of like Schroedinger's Cat, which wouldn't make a very good house pet IMHO.

 

[VonMagnum]

and that's one reason why they can be more compact for a given power level. No AC/DC conversion required.

Yes, but if you want any real power, you're going to have to use an inverter to get the voltage up. 12V is very limiting. I've got a 300W monoblock amp, digital crossover and 12" Alpine sub sitting in my garage from an old Ford Probe GT I used to have that has a built-in inverter (haven't really felt the need to put it in my newer cars since then as it takes up a chunk of trunk space and my two WRX's had/have under-the-seat subs and my Forrester Turbo has rather large door woofers) which don't take up trunk space. The Probe didn't have much power under the hood, but it kicked butt in the trunk.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Yes, but if you want any real power, you're going to have to use an inverter to get the voltage up. 12V is very limiting. I've got a 300W monoblock amp, digital crossover and 12" Alpine sub sitting in my garage from an old Ford Probe GT I used to have that has a built-in inverter (haven't really felt the need to put it in my newer cars since then as it takes up a chunk of trunk space and my two WRX's had/have under-the-seat subs and my Forrester Turbo has rather large door woofers) which don't take up trunk space. The Probe didn't have much power under the hood, but it kicked butt in the trunk.

Exactly! Because with 12V systems, one must increase amperage to increase wattage. Once one does that, power wires start getting really thick (as anyone who ever lived in the NE or Plains states will know when looking for the best (0 or 1 gauge) booster cables will know.

That's precisely why car manufacturers want to move to 48V systems. Wiring gauges can go up, decreasing materials cost and weight.

 

[VonMagnum]

I've never understood why we haven't gone to 240V 120Hz in the US. The size of washing machine motors would shrink quite a bit.... (yeah OK, transition would be a PITA, etc.)

 

[GrimSurfer]

I've never understood why we haven't gone to 240V 120Hz in the US. The size of washing machine motors would shrink quite a bit.... (yeah OK, transition would be a PITA, etc.)

The British standard socket is also much better than our two and three pronged varieties here in the US, featuring a shutter mechanism that only allows power to flow after the ground prong is inserted.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Many installers apparently consider these "ultra-caps" to be snake oil, like we do some power conditioners. It is obvious that some people think they look cool, and the concept sounds cool to the non-technical.

I'm not into this type of car audio, but there's one way for you to determine if they are snake oil... place your left and right hands on the conductors. The energy in those things will KILL. So they do store considerable energy and, as capacitors, can be designed to release that energy at a predetermined point.

If you are firmly of the belief that everything I say is crap, then grab onto any large cap (thread spool sized or larger) when it is in it's fully charged state. You'll never question me on this issue again because, well, you'll very likely be dead.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I'm not into this type of car audio, but there's one way for you to determine if they are snake oil... place your left and right hands on the conductors. The energy in those things will KILL. So they do store considerable energy and, as capacitors, can be designed to release that energy at a predetermined point.

If you are firmly of the belief that everything I say is crap, then grab onto any large cap (thread spool sized or larger) when it is in it's fully charged state. You'll never question me on this issue again because, well, you'll very likely be dead.

Grim, I think you need to chill. This post is over the top, and I wasn't referring to anything you posted in it, I was responding to VonMagnum. Secondly, the ultra-cap concept is different than what we were discussing.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Grim, I think you need to chill. This post is over the top, and I wasn't referring to anything you posted in it, I was responding to VonMagnum. Secondly, the ultra-cap concept is different than what we were discussing.

Not over the top at all, as much as you'd like to use my post as another form of attack or criticism.

And, btw, you have felt free many times to break into my discussions to register your critiques. So I'm not sure why you're raising this as an issue.

We're all having a discussion here. If you want to have an exclusive discussion, use the messaging feature. That's what it's there for.

The ultra cap is used precisely in the manner that capicitors are used in the power supply of a home audio amp (and for the same reasons that I stated and you disagreed with). They are there to supply power when needed to make up a shortfall that the transformer cannot. Period. End of sentence.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Not sure it's been mentioned, but THX Certification is one of the things to simply ignore on any A/V products.

Any product that has THX certification has met a certain standard and PAID for that certification, but because it is a paid endorsement, it does not mean that those products without THX certification are of any lesser quality in any way whatsoever. THX doesn't add to the value just like non-THX doesn't take away from the value.

Read reviews, specifications, and listen yourself.