Two SVS-SP2000 or 2-SB3000?PLEASE HALP!

[ryanosaur]

That's exactly what I figured, thanks for the validation on that.

As I look at your photos, I see two places I like for testing out sub placement.
I don't think your Mains are quite full range enough to run as large in your AVR. (You are of course free to experiment and see what sounds best to you). Regardless, you should be able to do this with your Polk if you want, or wait til whichever you order comes in:
Check out the Subwoofer crawl in this AH video. It is a crude technique, yet helpful and effective. In my room, I found a bad corner that not only amplified (what we call corner-loading) but also made the LF very boomy/muddy sounding. I found a spot where the LF just died completely. If you keep you mind and your ears open, you will start to hear differences as you crawl around listening at places your sub might go.
So the spots that I like? I would check the back right from your LP where you have that end table near your Dinette area. I would check front wall to the left in between your center and LMain. You can also try back left in the corner. This is speculation on my part, but I think getting at least one sub to fire into your LP from closer to the kitchen will help. That said, I'm also a big fan of placing the asymmetrically to maximize their effect on the room. Just sticking them up front or in corners does not guarantee you good Bass response.
Worth a shot, in my book to try the crawl and learn a little about how those LF waves behave!

 

[Ed Mullen]

The larger the room, the deeper the onset of the room gain transfer function. And if the room layout is open/lossy, then the OP really can't count on much room gain benefit at all.

Given the room size and his bass-capable mains, I think a ported subwoofer is the best option. The ported solution will have much higher output in the 18-36 Hz octave where LFE content is strong on action/sci-fi source material.

And the mains crossover can be set to 40 Hz or 60 Hz in the Marantz - and they will be handling much of the mid/upper bass which tend to will minimize any issues with subwoofer 'musicality'.

Personally I've never been a fan of 'near-field' subwoofer placement, as I can typically localize the mains and they are also harder to integrate seamlessly into the system. But I know it has fans, so it's certainly an option for him to maximize output in such a large space.

 

[RUreceivingMYtransmission]

The SB-3000 has significantly higher dynamic output capability than the PB-2000 in the 40-80 Hz octave. The new 13" split coil driver has a low moving mass with excellent sensitivity and a very flat force/displacement curve.

The SB-3000 will subjectively be punchier, tighter and quicker than the PB-2000 on music. Of course the PB-2000 turns the tables in the 18-36 Hz octave due to its much larger ported enclosure and is a better choice for HT in a larger room with an open floor space.

What are you running for main speakers? This can also influence the choice of subwoofer, especially for music applications. If you are running towers with decent mid/upper bass capability and setting a deeper crossover for the front channels in the AVR, then they will be handling much of the music bass range. This will allow you to run a ported sub without worrying as much about 'musicality' or mid/upper bass punch from the subwoofer.

Thanks for your input, Ed! Currently running the Klipsch RP8000f,s with the corresponding center, surround, and presence. Running them at the typical 80Hz. I'm definitely getting the impression that I would be wise to go ported, as the room is not very

As I look at your photos, I see two places I like for testing out sub placement.
I don't think your Mains are quite full range enough to run as large in your AVR. (You are of course free to experiment and see what sounds best to you). Regardless, you should be able to do this with your Polk if you want, or wait til whichever you order comes in:
Check out the Subwoofer crawl in this AH video. It is a crude technique, yet helpful and effective. In my room, I found a bad corner that not only amplified (what we call corner-loading) but also made the LF very boomy/muddy sounding. I found a spot where the LF just died completely. If you keep you mind and your ears open, you will start to hear differences as you crawl around listening at places your sub might go.
So the spots that I like? I would check the back right from your LP where you have that end table near your Dinette area. I would check front wall to the left in between your center and LMain. You can also try back left in the corner. This is speculation on my part, but I think getting at least one sub to fire into your LP from closer to the kitchen will help. That said, I'm also a big fan of placing the asymmetrically to maximize their effect on the room. Just sticking them up front or in corners does not guarantee you good Bass response.
Worth a shot, in my book to try the crawl and learn a little about how those LF waves behave!

Ya, the subs are currently asymmetrically placed. Your opinion of where they should go have given me food for thought. I've seen that base crawl vid, just haven't gotten to doing it just yet.

 

[ryanosaur]

The larger the room, the deeper the onset of the room gain transfer function. And if the room layout is open/lossy, then the OP really can't count on much room gain benefit at all.

Given the room size and his bass-capable mains, I think a ported subwoofer is the best option. The ported solution will have much higher output in the 18-36 Hz octave where LFE content is strong on action/sci-fi source material.

And the mains crossover can be set to 40 Hz or 60 Hz in the Marantz - and they will be handling much of the mid/upper bass which tend to will minimize any issues with subwoofer 'musicality'.

Personally I've never been a fan of 'near-field' subwoofer placement, as I can typically localize the mains and they are also harder to integrate seamlessly into the system. But I know it has fans, so it's certainly an option for him to maximize output in such a large space.

Hi Ed! Thank you, again. One more follow up question, please! When you recommend your XO settings, they are a little lower than most of us are told is recommended. Usually I’ve always heard setting an octave over the states F3 of the mains with the explanation of “protecting the drivers from the LFE signal which could tax said drivers beyond their capabilities.”
When you make your recommendations, what are your considerations for the frequency choice?

Again, thank you!!!!

 

[Ed Mullen]

Hi Ed! Thank you, again. One more follow up question, please! When you recommend your XO settings, they are a little lower than most of us are told is recommended. Usually I’ve always heard setting an octave over the states F3 of the mains with the explanation of “protecting the drivers from the LFE signal which could tax said drivers beyond their capabilities.”
When you make your recommendations, what are your considerations for the frequency choice?

Again, thank you!!!!

The LFE channel is not sent to any loudspeakers (unless there is no subwoofer specified in the AV processor).

With that said, there can be deep loud bass mixed into any speaker channel which could be below the extension limits of the speaker and/or pose a threat of physical damage.

Typically, I'll add 10-15 Hz to the F3 rating of the speaker and pick the nearest available crossover in the AV processor. I wouldn't hesitate to set your Klipsch 8000 mains to 60 Hz in the Marantz.

I think 40 Hz is a little too deep, only because the high pass slope assigned by the AV processor is 12 dB/octave which means the filtered signal is -12 @ 20 Hz. We want to give the speakers the opportunity to track the high pass filter slope for at least 1/2 octave to blend with the subwoofer before the speaker itself rolls off.

Given the F3 of 32 Hz for your speakers, I think 80 Hz is too conservative and would not be taking full advantage of their bass output. Four 8" lightweight woofers (between the pair of them) are definitely going to move some air and may very well rival the subwoofer in the 60-120 Hz octave.

 

[Danzilla31]

The larger the room, the deeper the onset of the room gain transfer function. And if the room layout is open/lossy, then the OP really can't count on much room gain benefit at all.

Given the room size and his bass-capable mains, I think a ported subwoofer is the best option. The ported solution will have much higher output in the 18-36 Hz octave where LFE content is strong on action/sci-fi source material.

And the mains crossover can be set to 40 Hz or 60 Hz in the Marantz - and they will be handling much of the mid/upper bass which tend to will minimize any issues with subwoofer 'musicality'.

Personally I've never been a fan of 'near-field' subwoofer placement, as I can typically localize the mains and they are also harder to integrate seamlessly into the system. But I know it has fans, so it's certainly an option for him to maximize output in such a large space.

Ed!!!!!! Why you hatin on my near field placement! LOL

 

[Danzilla31]

Thanks for your input, Ed! Currently running the Klipsch RP8000f,s with the corresponding center, surround, and presence. Running them at the typical 80Hz. I'm definitely getting the impression that I would be wise to go ported, as the room is not very

Ya, the subs are currently asymmetrically placed. Your opinion of where they should go have given me food for thought. I've seen that base crawl vid, just haven't gotten to doing it just yet.

I have a big area to fill over 8000 cubed of air to move I'm thinking you will not regret going ported. Trust me on this one. Especially like Ed said if you have good speakers (which you do) to cross over at the 60-80 Hz range

 

[Ed Mullen]

Ed!!!!!! Why you hatin on my near field placement! LOL

Haters gonna hate.

 

[Danzilla31]

Haters gonna hate.

 

[ryanosaur]

The LFE channel is not sent to any loudspeakers (unless there is no subwoofer specified in the AV processor).

With that said, there can be deep loud bass mixed into any speaker channel which could be below the extension limits of the speaker and/or pose a threat of physical damage.

Typically, I'll add 10-15 Hz to the F3 rating of the speaker and pick the nearest available crossover in the AV processor. I wouldn't hesitate to set your Klipsch 8000 mains to 60 Hz in the Marantz.

I think 40 Hz is a little too deep, only because the high pass slope assigned by the AV processor is 12 dB/octave which means the filtered signal is -12 @ 20 Hz. We want to give the speakers the opportunity to track the high pass filter slope for at least 1/2 octave to blend with the subwoofer before the speaker itself rolls off.

Given the F3 of 32 Hz for your speakers, I think 80 Hz is too conservative and would not be taking full advantage of their bass output. Four 8" lightweight woofers (between the pair of them) are definitely going to move some air and may very well rival the subwoofer in the 60-120 Hz octave.

Thank you for taking the time to share with me! Greatly appreciated.

 

[Sef_Makaro]

The LFE channel is not sent to any loudspeakers (unless there is no subwoofer specified in the AV processor).

With that said, there can be deep loud bass mixed into any speaker channel which could be below the extension limits of the speaker and/or pose a threat of physical damage.

Typically, I'll add 10-15 Hz to the F3 rating of the speaker and pick the nearest available crossover in the AV processor. I wouldn't hesitate to set your Klipsch 8000 mains to 60 Hz in the Marantz.

I think 40 Hz is a little too deep, only because the high pass slope assigned by the AV processor is 12 dB/octave which means the filtered signal is -12 @ 20 Hz. We want to give the speakers the opportunity to track the high pass filter slope for at least 1/2 octave to blend with the subwoofer before the speaker itself rolls off.

Given the F3 of 32 Hz for your speakers, I think 80 Hz is too conservative and would not be taking full advantage of their bass output. Four 8" lightweight woofers (between the pair of them) are definitely going to move some air and may very well rival the subwoofer in the 60-120 Hz octave.

Love this info. Based on this, if my towers are rated -/+3db at 30hz, where would you set the crossover? I saw another article here recommending half an octave up from the minimum rated frequency. The closest I could get was 40hz. Would you go with 40 even though it’s less than half an octave or would you set it at 60 since it’s a full octave higher?

 

[ryanosaur]

Love this info. Based on this, if my towers are rated -/+3db at 30hz, where would you set the crossover? I saw another article here recommending half an octave up from the minimum rated frequency. The closest I could get was 40hz. Would you go with 40 even though it’s less than half an octave or would you set it at 60 since it’s a full octave higher?

60 is the half octave, 80 is one octave above 40Hz.
Based on what Ed said, 40-45Hz would be his recommendation.
Edit... was on my phone and lost track of math typing on a tiny screen. *blushes
I would experiment with the two and see what works... The conventional programming is that I would kick up to 60 is 50 isn't an option. 40 just feels low.

 

[Sef_Makaro]

Ah. I may have misunderstood the article and what an octave is lol. I thought it was just a doubling or halfing of a given frequency. So in my mind if my tower supposedly can go down to 30hz, 60hz would be an octave up making 45hz the target of I was shooting for half an octave.

I have it set to 40hz now, I think I’ll give it a try at 60hz. 40hz does seem a bit on the low side.

 

[ryanosaur]

you are correct: 20, 40, 80, etc... are all octaves... a doubling of the frequency. My bad math was based on thinking you had said 40Hz.
I've been using 60 for my standmounts... the BMRs are -2dB @ 34Hz, which he calls the usable extension. I know they will play lower, but don't want to risk over-excursion of that woofer.

 

[CB22]

the BMRs are -2dB @ 34Hz, which he calls the usable extension. I know they will play lower, but don't want to risk over-excursion of that woofer.

Just curious, what do you have your cross-over set at your AVR?

 

[ryanosaur]

Just curious, what do you have your cross-over set at your AVR?

Whatup, CB!!??
I flipped back and forth from 60-80 for a bit. I landed on 60 for a while. No problems. Might revisit the difference again. I do remember thinking it sounded better at 80.
Really wishing I had a testing setup so I could see if there is any notable difference apparent... Soon...

 

[CB22]

Whatup, CB!!??
I flipped back and forth from 60-80 for a bit. I landed on 60 for a while. No problems. Might revisit the difference again. I do remember thinking it sounded better at 80.
Really wishing I had a testing setup so I could see if there is any notable difference apparent... Soon...

Thanks Ryan. I was playing around between 60 and 80 just now and I don't think my ears can tell the difference between the two. But they can tell a big difference between 40 and 80. 80Hz was recommend by THX so I'll think I'll leave it at that.

 

[RUreceivingMYtransmission]

The LFE channel is not sent to any loudspeakers (unless there is no subwoofer specified in the AV processor).

With that said, there can be deep loud bass mixed into any speaker channel which could be below the extension limits of the speaker and/or pose a threat of physical damage.

Typically, I'll add 10-15 Hz to the F3 rating of the speaker and pick the nearest available crossover in the AV processor. I wouldn't hesitate to set your Klipsch 8000 mains to 60 Hz in the Marantz.

I think 40 Hz is a little too deep, only because the high pass slope assigned by the AV processor is 12 dB/octave which means the filtered signal is -12 @ 20 Hz. We want to give the speakers the opportunity to track the high pass filter slope for at least 1/2 octave to blend with the subwoofer before the speaker itself rolls off.

Given the F3 of 32 Hz for your speakers, I think 80 Hz is too conservative and would not be taking full advantage of their bass output. Four 8" lightweight woofers (between the pair of them) are definitely going to move some air and may very well rival the subwoofer in the 60-120 Hz octave.

Wow Ed, thanks for that. I really didn't feel right setting the 8000's to the standard 80hz, essentially cutting thier capability in half. I'm jumping in and learning quick, this was very helpful.

 

[RUreceivingMYtransmission]

Wow Ed, thanks for that. I really didn't feel right setting the 8000's to the standard 80hz, essentially cutting thier capability in half. I'm jumping in and learning quick, this was very helpful.

Sorry I ghosted out for the day, got caught up in my industry summit and then had to drive home 3.5hrs

 

[ryanosaur]

Thanks Ryan. I was playing around between 60 and 80 just now and I don't think my ears can tell the difference between the two. But they can tell a big difference between 40 and 80. 80Hz was recommend by THX so I'll think I'll leave it at that.

Hard for me to describe... felt maybe there was just better overall SQ at 80 in my room. My subs got to stretch their legs a little more... yet I was still getting most of the BMR. At 60, there's an element of liveliness that I thought (then) was missing. I haven't changed it in 3+weeks. So, we'll see. Maybe I'll play tonight.