B-M-WOW! A tribute to the BMR, and my journey to them..

[snakeeyes]

Hey lovin if ryan here really wants to build a sub solid enough to get him true 15hz extension how crazy expensive are we talking here. Sometimes I wonder if DIY is worth it on building a more capable sub. I kind off wonder if you should just buy sometimes from the ID companies if your not going to save too much off of building a true monster sub

How many subs can he fit behind his couch? LOL

 

[ryanosaur]

Hey lovin if ryan here really wants to build a sub solid enough to get him true 15hz extension how crazy expensive are we talking here. Sometimes I wonder if DIY is worth it on building a more capable sub. I kind off wonder if you should just buy sometimes from the ID companies if your not going to save too much off of building a true monster sub

So the Sub building was actually meant for the greatroom... where the Lady couldn't giv an F if it has that kind of extension... So if I were able to pull it off, and they weren't too large for my room, I'd swap 'em out. If they are passable... then i keep the X-13s for me.
And I am really impressed with them so far. Not much to compare them against, though. A friend has two Sonos Subs. *shrugs
But at the most basic, we know there are drivers capable... then its a matter of cabinet size and port tuning. As long as I can keep and 18x24" footprint, I'll build it up 33,34". I know there's more to it. A lot more. but for now... I can fancy myself a speaker-builder, can't I?

 

[Danzilla31]

How many subs can he fit behind his couch? LOL

I could fit 2 more. Talk about getting even bass response across all the seats!

 

[lovinthehd]

Arrrgh! *laughing. Thank you for re-ilustrating how far I have yet to travel, Lovin!

LOL its a long ride, I barely got on the bus compared to many.

Hey lovin if ryan here really wants to build a sub solid enough to get him true 15hz extension how crazy expensive are we talking here. Sometimes I wonder if DIY is worth it on building a more capable sub. I kind off wonder if you should just buy sometimes from the ID companies if your not going to save too much off of building a true monster sub

I think we threw the DIY thing at Ryan early on and he passed. I'm pretty sure I've at least once asked him but maybe I'm slipping LOL. I think its a cost effective way of getting there, I doubt I'd ever go back from diy subs but I'm retired and have the tools and time (not necessarily the skills yet but getting there, my subs were my beginning woodworking projects ).

ps Apparently I forgot when he was gonna diy

 

[ryanosaur]

How many subs can he fit behind his couch? LOL

No couch. just subs!

I think we threw the DIY thing at Ryan early on and he passed.

Nope... I'm on that path. Subs and Atmos speakers are top of my list! Subs for the greatroom, and some good boxes I can hang from those lovely wood beams you see in some of the photos!

 

[Danzilla31]

So the Sub building was actually meant for the greatroom... where the Lady couldn't giv an F if it has that kind of extension... So if I were able to pull it off, and they weren't too large for my room, I'd swap 'em out. If they are passable... then i keep the X-13s for me.
And I am really impressed with them so far. Not much to compare them against, though. A friend has two Sonos Subs. *shrugs
But at the most basic, we know there are drivers capable... then its a matter of cabinet size and port tuning. As long as I can keep and 18x24" footprint, I'll build it up 33,34". I know there's more to it. A lot more. but for now... I can fancy myself a speaker-builder, can't I?

Daaaamn sonos subs! I don't think I'd go go up against those bad boys my homie! We're talking some serious heavy hitters with those Sonos subs

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah its starting to sound familiar, but then after a while everyone's system does

 

[ryanosaur]

Yeah its starting to sound familiar, but then after a while everyone's system does

Too true. With one or two exceptions. TLS and Steve. You think he'd part wit hone of his Funks?

 

[shadyJ]

Ha! Again perhaps my clumsy understanding strikes, and this is what I'm working towards a better understanding of!
I didn't mean that the servos can do magic... merely that they seem to allow for more finite control over blending the sub into the bigger system.

... Which I 'understand,' but don't yet know... But I promise, Shady, I'm listening and trying to learn!

So here's where I'm at... I'm learning about bass management by asking questions, reading articles and forum posts, and seeing how it works in my setting. For example, The BMRs are rated down to 34Hz. I am currently setting crossover at 80. (Point: I can't find anything that states what Marantz XO slope is... so assuming 6dB per octave, I'm technically still sending low frequencies to the woofer below its rated threshold, correct? ) Speakers of course set to small, because they aren't full range capable down to 20Hz.
Now some of what I've read indicates I should have the XO up at 140? So if I understand correctly, it would be off 6 dB an octave lower at 70Hz, and then shouldn't be getting any signal at all by 35Hz. But that 140 seems almost stupid high. Another source claims I should set 1.5 octaves higher: which for the BMRs would be 102Hz. Since Marantz only allows 10 dB increments, I would say round down to 100Hz.
Then same exercise with the Mini-Phils, 65Hz. And the AA's, rated at 48Hz, but with "very audible output at 34Hz." Currently I have them set to 120 and 100 respectively.
Phil-3's are rated at 25Hz, with "useful bass response down to 20Hz...." Do I dare run them wide open? I would like too. If an LF signal for 16Hz is transmitted as a pedal tone in an organ piece, will that potentially cause harm? Do I switch settings just in case I want to hit the Subwoofer Candy a little hard one day... and XO at 80?

Next, with Marantz, I only have the Sub 1 and 2 Pre-Outs available to me which includes the LFE. To get around the Marantz Bass Management, I would need speaker level inputs on the Sub, and the outputs to the main L/R channels, correct? (In which case, I should be able to choose whether I do a low pass/high pass, manually at the Sub, or pass full signal through to large speakers and just setting what freq the sub picks up at. Correct?)
Maybe not the connection, but the Low Pass/High Pass option would be ideal for blending speakers and subs in-room, and seems more in line with some of the discussion on @Matthew J Poes's Why I dislike traditional bass management thread.
That being said, if I had speaker level connections... can you also run your LFE line into the same Sub? (Just curious.)

Your thoughts, please?

Thank you guys, now and always for your input, advice and guidance! Greatly appreciated!

You might as well use an 80 Hz high pass filter with the BMR Philharmonitors. While they do have excellent bass extension for bookshelf speakers, they won't have enormous output capability at low frequencies, so I would filter them just for protection. For the Phil-3s, I would run them full range and supplement the response with subs. You might slightly shelf the lows on the Phil-3s in fact, so you don't get super hot bass and to give them a bit of protection. I'm not sure how much capability the Marantz has to do that. You might need something like the MiniDSP to do that. You might look into shelf filters.

 

[snakeeyes]

I could fit 2 more. Talk about getting even bass response across all the seats!

Good to hear from you Danzilla. I can’t imagine how much bass that would be but I could see myself getting more subs every few years. It’s a bit addicting.

 

[ryanosaur]

I'm not sure how much capability the Marantz has to do that.

Indeed.
Thank you, Shady!

And a Shelf filter. I just looked that up... I get where you're coming from.
Getting those Phil 3s in here is going to be interesting! I'm doing everything I can to prep myself for them... Just might be that the 6012 won't be up to the challenge, but I need to ride that pony for a few more miles. Maybe mid 2020... we'll see. That'll only be a year with the Phil-3s handcuffed a bit (assuming they show up when they're supposed to).

 

[lovinthehd]

LOL those replaced some killer subs so can't imagine what it would take! I'm pretty sure if I got a Funk it will be in the will.

Too true. With one or two exceptions. TLS and Steve. You think he'd part wit hone of his Funks?

 

[shadyJ]

Indeed.
Thank you, Shady!

And a Shelf filter. I just looked that up... I get where you're coming from.
Getting those Phil 3s in here is going to be interesting! I'm doing everything I can to prep myself for them... Just might be that the 6012 won't be up to the challenge, but I need to ride that pony for a few more miles. Maybe mid 2020... we'll see. That'll only be a year with the Phil-3s handcuffed a bit (assuming they show up when they're supposed to).

I wonder if the Marantz will send a sub signal through the sub outputs if you set all your speakers to large and also set the sub to 'yes'? If so, you can run the speakers full range and also use subs.

If I remember right, you are using outboard amplifiers to power your speakers, correct? If so, you could just set a processor in the chain between the Marantz and your outboard amp for the Phil 3s, like a MiniDSP. in the MiniDSP you can setup a shelf filter however you like.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd think with all speakers set to large and sub set to yes you 'd only get LFE to the sub.

 

[shadyJ]

I'd think with all speakers set to large and sub set to yes you 'd only get LFE to the sub.

With the AVRs I have had in the past, onkyo and pioneer, setting speakers to large automatically turns off subwoofer output.

 

[lovinthehd]

With the AVRs I have had in the past, onkyo and pioneer, setting speakers to large automatically turns off subwoofer output.

Just made all speakers full band with sub set to yes in my Onkyo....works fine. Never tried on my Denons but pretty sure I can do the same.

ps Now did it on my Denon 4520, no problem but too cold in the workshop for a test Doesn't make sense, now that I've had some coffee , that an avr wouldn't be able to work with a sub for LFE even if speakers set to large....are you sure you're not thinking of the avr automatically setting speakers to large when you tell it you have no sub instead?

 

[ryanosaur]

Dunno if I'll get to play with it today... but as I understand the manual (HA!), when speakers are set to Large, no channel-dependent bass gets routed to the sub. Ony LFE would go to the sub if it is available in the source mix and assuming you have the proper listening mode selected, and you have LFE tuned on. I did see somewhere in the manual that you may not get any subwoofer sound using large setting.

 

[lovinthehd]

You can turn LFE on and off in yours? I don't think I can....but yes if speakers are set to large, then no bass management (i.e. bass redirection). If source doesn't have LFE channel content or you're not using an upmixer to create the LFE channel, then you wouldn't get subwoofer output....

 

[ryanosaur]

remembered I have a perfect way to test:
L/R Speakers set to Large. Stereo Mode. Subwoofers are on Standby.
Using a 34Hz test tone should activate the subs if a signal is passing.
And it did.
So there is that. Thanks for the idea to test on.

 

[ryanosaur]

You can turn LFE on and off in yours? I don't think I can...

only if you tell it no subs, I think.