B-M-WOW! A tribute to the BMR, and my journey to them..

[<eargiant]

In the case of Phil3s, I would look into a Geddes type subwoofer system where the main speakers are used full range. It would be a waste for those transmission line cabinets to go unused when they could certainly contribute to a very nice bass response.

I agree. Another option is REL using the high level connection they prefer and recommend. Same concept, meant to be used with high quality speakers. To add not detract, why would anyone want to cut out even a portion of the capabilities of a high quality speaker.

https://rel.net/

 

[ryanosaur]

Indeed. Broke my heart a little as I was hoping for maybe one more pair. Gives me the opportunity for my first DIY, methinks!

 

[CB22]

FYI I just talked to Dennis via email and he has discontinued making the AAs.

Bummer, wonder why. @ryanosaur glad you got your when you did.

 

[lovinthehd]

I agree. Another option is REL using the high level connection they prefer and recommend. Same concept, meant to be used with high quality speakers. To add not detract, why would anyone want to cut out even a portion of the capabilities of a high quality speaker.

https://rel.net/

...or at those frequencies lower than the Phil 3s save money and use another, and likely more capable, sub with high level inputs (Ryan, do your X-13s have high level inputs?)

 

[ryanosaur]

Bummer, wonder why. @ryanosaur glad you got your when you did.

True that! And I was a little surprised, but kind of expected it... just not right away.
He and I agreed on a b-stock with the old Dayton Tweeter instead of the Morel. But it seriously sounds pretty d@mn fine, and does get low.

I offered to build them for him, though. LOL

 

[ryanosaur]

...or at those frequencies lower than the Phil 3s save money and use another, and likely more capable, sub with high level inputs (Ryan, do your X-13s have high level inputs?)

Unfortunately, no. But If I build my own subs later this year, I can move the x-13s out to the main room.

(Been reading the speaker building books, and after those, some woodworking books. I'm torn on what direction to go, considering my demand for 15Hz tuning. Enrique at Rythmik says their 12" drivers, sealed, are capable... and I know the 15"s are. I really am interested in their stuff because they seem significantly more tune-able than most, which I think is a function of the servos(?). Regardless, if I have my terminology correct, "speaker level" and "high level" are the same, correct? I'd kind of like to have the flexibility to do that... which is what I referenced in that clumsily phrased other post when I talked about "defeating bass management." I know those Phil-3s are special speakers, but I am afraid setting them to large is going to kill my subs for the extension when want to feed it a Big Organ, or some such. I'd like to have those Phil-3 run wild, and still have the support of my subs. But if I build something else than Rythmik, I can pick my own amp or run it passive with an external unit that can do that signal for me? That's what I'm working on learning about!)

 

[snakeeyes]

Unfortunately, no. But If I build my own subs later this year, I can move the x-13s out to the main room.

(Been reading the speaker building books, and after those, some woodworking books. I'm torn on what direction to go, considering my demand for 15Hz tuning. Enrique at Rythmik says their 12" drivers, sealed, are capable... and I know the 15"s are. I really am interested in their stuff because they seem significantly more tune-able than most, which I think is a function of the servos(?). Regardless, if I have my terminology correct, "speaker level" and "high level" are the same, correct? I'd kind of like to have the flexibility to do that... which is what I referenced in that clumsily phrased other post when I talked about "defeating bass management." I know those Phil-3s are special speakers, but I am afraid setting them to large is going to kill my subs for the extension when want to feed it a Big Organ, or some such. I'd like to have those Phil-3 run wild, and still have the support of my subs. But if I build something else than Rythmik, I can pick my own amp or run it passive with an external unit that can do that signal for me? That's what I'm working on learning about!)

I’m thinking you will not like giving up those twins once you set them up right.

 

[snakeeyes]

True that! And I was a little surprised, but kind of expected it... just not right away.
He and I agreed on a b-stock with the old Dayton Tweeter instead of the Morel. But it seriously sounds pretty d@mn fine, and does get low.

I offered to build them for him, though. LOL

More time for him to dedicate to getting your Phil3’s built.

 

[lovinthehd]

Unfortunately, no. But If I build my own subs later this year, I can move the x-13s out to the main room.

(Been reading the speaker building books, and after those, some woodworking books. I'm torn on what direction to go, considering my demand for 15Hz tuning. Enrique at Rythmik says their 12" drivers, sealed, are capable... and I know the 15"s are. I really am interested in their stuff because they seem significantly more tune-able than most, which I think is a function of the servos(?). Regardless, if I have my terminology correct, "speaker level" and "high level" are the same, correct? I'd kind of like to have the flexibility to do that... which is what I referenced in that clumsily phrased other post when I talked about "defeating bass management." I know those Phil-3s are special speakers, but I am afraid setting them to large is going to kill my subs for the extension when want to feed it a Big Organ, or some such. I'd like to have those Phil-3 run wild, and still have the support of my subs. But if I build something else than Rythmik, I can pick my own amp or run it passive with an external unit that can do that signal for me? That's what I'm working on learning about!)

Yes speaker level and high level are the same. Low level is line input.

I thought you were thinking about not using bass management in your avr, just using the blending method with a low pass on the sub (or letting it duplicate over some range). Kind of surprised the X-13s don't come with the option, tho (I guess that's their vote on how to setup to an extent).

What do you mean tuning? Adjustment feature for adjusting dsp in the sub amp in conjunction with blocking a port? The Phil's won't be able to match your subs for extension in any case, and not sure at what spl your subs would be the better tool for the job at what frequency....

All subs to an extent are passive, whether the amp is on the box or in your rack is more just a feature set difference perhaps other than location.

 

[<eargiant]

Unfortunately, no. But If I build my own subs later this year, I can move the x-13s out to the main room.

(Been reading the speaker building books, and after those, some woodworking books. I'm torn on what direction to go, considering my demand for 15Hz tuning. Enrique at Rythmik says their 12" drivers, sealed, are capable... and I know the 15"s are. I really am interested in their stuff because they seem significantly more tune-able than most, which I think is a function of the servos(?). Regardless, if I have my terminology correct, "speaker level" and "high level" are the same, correct? I'd kind of like to have the flexibility to do that... which is what I referenced in that clumsily phrased other post when I talked about "defeating bass management." I know those Phil-3s are special speakers, but I am afraid setting them to large is going to kill my subs for the extension when want to feed it a Big Organ, or some such. I'd like to have those Phil-3 run wild, and still have the support of my subs. But if I build something else than Rythmik, I can pick my own amp or run it passive with an external unit that can do that signal for me? That's what I'm working on learning about!)

If you run them both via high level they both get the same exact signal from the amp. If the sub is active (like the RELs) it will not put any additional strain on your amp, the sub and speakers should be connected to the same speaker terminals on your amp (REL uses a clean 3 in 1 wire with a Neutrik connector).

I don't know much about current AVR settings or processing but you would want the main speakers (which is where your Phils & Sub are connected) to be set to full range with no crossover. They both should get the full signal. The crossing is done at the sub level. Personally, I would then use a Parametric EQ and adjust for the room and sub placement accordingly. Cross the sub very low and have the volume a little higher. For me this resulted in the most seamless integration for music that I have ever had with a sub.

I also don't believe the sound quality (at least for music) of all subs is equal, SQ should not be confused with capability. Just like the quality and refinement of bass notes and their articulation is not the same on all "capable" drivers.

Everything I say is based on high resolution music listening. I realize that movies and HT may have different requirements and that is not my domain so I will stay out of that part. I hope you can strike the balance that suits your needs.

Good luck with the Phil 3s, I've always wanted to try them but I don't have the space to set them up properly.

 

[shadyJ]

Enrique at Rythmik says their 12" drivers, sealed, are capable... and I know the 15"s are. I really am interested in their stuff because they seem significantly more tune-able than most, which I think is a function of the servos(?).

Rythmik's sealed subs aren't any more capable at tackling 15 Hz than most other sealed subs within the same price and build class. Their sealed 12"s will not be able to reproduce 15 Hz with any kind of serious SPL at all. Their servo mechanism isn't some kind of magic potion that allows them to defy the laws of physics. Their ported subs might be more capable than other brands at taking on 15 Hz, but only because of the enclosure tuning- and there are always trade-offs when you tune a sub so low.

 

[ryanosaur]

Their servo mechanism isn't some kind of magic potion that allows them to defy the laws of physics

What do you mean tuning?

Ha! Again perhaps my clumsy understanding strikes, and this is what I'm working towards a better understanding of!
I didn't mean that the servos can do magic... merely that they seem to allow for more finite control over blending the sub into the bigger system.

Their ported subs might be more capable than other brands at taking on 15 Hz, but only because of the enclosure tuning- and there are always trade-offs when you tune a sub so low.

... Which I 'understand,' but don't yet know... But I promise, Shady, I'm listening and trying to learn!

So here's where I'm at... I'm learning about bass management by asking questions, reading articles and forum posts, and seeing how it works in my setting. For example, The BMRs are rated down to 34Hz. I am currently setting crossover at 80. (Point: I can't find anything that states what Marantz XO slope is... so assuming 6dB per octave, I'm technically still sending low frequencies to the woofer below its rated threshold, correct? ) Speakers of course set to small, because they aren't full range capable down to 20Hz.
Now some of what I've read indicates I should have the XO up at 140? So if I understand correctly, it would be off 6 dB an octave lower at 70Hz, and then shouldn't be getting any signal at all by 35Hz. But that 140 seems almost stupid high. Another source claims I should set 1.5 octaves higher: which for the BMRs would be 102Hz. Since Marantz only allows 10 dB increments, I would say round down to 100Hz.
Then same exercise with the Mini-Phils, 65Hz. And the AA's, rated at 48Hz, but with "very audible output at 34Hz." Currently I have them set to 120 and 100 respectively.
Phil-3's are rated at 25Hz, with "useful bass response down to 20Hz...." Do I dare run them wide open? I would like too. If an LF signal for 16Hz is transmitted as a pedal tone in an organ piece, will that potentially cause harm? Do I switch settings just in case I want to hit the Subwoofer Candy a little hard one day... and XO at 80?

Next, with Marantz, I only have the Sub 1 and 2 Pre-Outs available to me which includes the LFE. To get around the Marantz Bass Management, I would need speaker level inputs on the Sub, and the outputs to the main L/R channels, correct? (In which case, I should be able to choose whether I do a low pass/high pass, manually at the Sub, or pass full signal through to large speakers and just setting what freq the sub picks up at. Correct?)
Maybe not the connection, but the Low Pass/High Pass option would be ideal for blending speakers and subs in-room, and seems more in line with some of the discussion on @Matthew J Poes's Why I dislike traditional bass management thread.
That being said, if I had speaker level connections... can you also run your LFE line into the same Sub? (Just curious.)

Your thoughts, please?

Thank you guys, now and always for your input, advice and guidance! Greatly appreciated!

 

[ryanosaur]

I’m thinking you will not like giving up those twins once you set them up right.

Depends on how strong my Build-Fu is when time comes, Snake.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ha! Again perhaps my clumsy understanding strikes, and this is what I'm working towards a better understanding of!
I didn't mean that the servos can do magic... merely that they seem to allow for more finite control over blending the sub into the bigger system.

... Which I 'understand,' but don't yet know... But I promise, Shady, I'm listening and trying to learn!

So here's where I'm at... I'm learning about bass management by asking questions, reading articles and forum posts, and seeing how it works in my setting. For example, The BMRs are rated down to 34Hz. I am currently setting crossover at 80. (Point: I can't find anything that states what Marantz XO slope is... so assuming 6dB per octave, I'm technically still sending low frequencies to the woofer below its rated threshold, correct? ) Speakers of course set to small, because they aren't full range capable down to 20Hz.
Now some of what I've read indicates I should have the XO up at 140? So if I understand correctly, it would be off 6 dB an octave lower at 70Hz, and then shouldn't be getting any signal at all by 35Hz. But that 140 seems almost stupid high. Another source claims I should set 1.5 octaves higher: which for the BMRs would be 102Hz. Since Marantz only allows 10 dB increments, I would say round down to 100Hz.
Then same exercise with the Mini-Phils, 65Hz. And the AA's, rated at 48Hz, but with "very audible output at 34Hz." Currently I have them set to 120 and 100 respectively.
Phil-3's are rated at 25Hz, with "useful bass response down to 20Hz...." Do I dare run them wide open? I would like too. If an LF signal for 16Hz is transmitted as a pedal tone in an organ piece, will that potentially cause harm? Do I switch settings just in case I want to hit the Subwoofer Candy a little hard one day... and XO at 80?

Next, with Marantz, I only have the Sub 1 and 2 Pre-Outs available to me which includes the LFE. To get around the Marantz Bass Management, I would need speaker level inputs on the Sub, and the outputs to the main L/R channels, correct? (In which case, I should be able to choose whether I do a low pass/high pass, manually at the Sub, or pass full signal through to large speakers and just setting what freq the sub picks up at. Correct?)
Maybe not the connection, but the Low Pass/High Pass option would be ideal for blending speakers and subs in-room, and seems more in line with some of the discussion on @Matthew J Poes's Why I dislike traditional bass management thread.
That being said, if I had speaker level connections... can you also run your LFE line into the same Sub? (Just curious.)

Your thoughts, please?

Thank you guys, now and always for your input, advice and guidance! Greatly appreciated!

The thread Matthew posted advises you that his research says the typical bass management in the avr uses:

The current standard approach to bass management uses true crossovers, meaning there is a symmetric high-pass and low-pass. A 4th order LR low pass for the subwoofer and a 2nd order BW high pass for the mains (that when mixed with a sealed enclosure speaker with an 80hz -3db fs, would yield a 4th order LR high pass acoustically) .

A 4th order Linkwitz Riley slope is 24dB/octave; a 2nd order Butterworth slope is 12dB/octave.

Lots of recommendations on how to use your speakers f3 (-3dB point) to choose a point but personally I'd just start with 80 and experiment from there both up and down. I use 110 personally on all my speakers (4 towers, a smallish center and rear surrounds but all same JBL S5xx series) normally but I have 4 subs and sub localization isn't an issue either. Too high a crossover may lead to sub localization. Or follow one of the "formulas" , YMMV.

Or just tell your avr speakers are full range (large) and use no crossover (i.e. bypass bass management) as you've been thinking about and just setting the low pass on the sub and blend it/supplement it with the speakers, depending how much overlap you want. You could also simply tell your avr you have no sub if you don't want LFE going to the sub, but not sure why you want to do that particularly (when you say sub pre-outs includes LFE).

 

[Danzilla31]

Rythmik's sealed subs aren't any more capable at tackling 15 Hz than most other sealed subs within the same price and build class. Their sealed 12"s will not be able to reproduce 15 Hz with any kind of serious SPL at all. Their servo mechanism isn't some kind of magic potion that allows them to defy the laws of physics. Their ported subs might be more capable than other brands at taking on 15 Hz, but only because of the enclosure tuning- and there are always trade-offs when you tune a sub so low.

Yeah I'm impressed with Rythmik and really like there products but Shady hit it right on the mark. There ported versions are the only ones that can really really get you there. And even then I'd be thinking about the 18's and not the 15's on there models. Those 18's look like theyd go into beast mode on you real quick I came so close to pulling that trigger. Really glad I didn't tho very happy with what I got

 

[lovinthehd]

Also find it helps to visualize a crossover so

 

[snakeeyes]

I would try 80 hz on the BMRs. The minis probably 90-110 and probably 90-110 also on the AA monitors.

The Phil3 I would expect to run full range with those TL cabinets. It seems like a crime to not utilize those transmission lines.

 

[ryanosaur]

A 4th order Linkwitz Riley slope is 24dB/octave; a 2nd order Butterworth slope is 12dB/octave.

Arrrgh! *laughing. Thank you for re-ilustrating how far I have yet to travel, Lovin!

 

[Danzilla31]

The thread Matthew posted advises you that his research says the typical bass management in the avr uses:

The current standard approach to bass management uses true crossovers, meaning there is a symmetric high-pass and low-pass. A 4th order LR low pass for the subwoofer and a 2nd order BW high pass for the mains (that when mixed with a sealed enclosure speaker with an 80hz -3db fs, would yield a 4th order LR high pass acoustically) .

A 4th order Linkwitz Riley slope is 24dB/octave; a 2nd order Butterworth slope is 12dB/octave.

Lots of recommendations on how to use your speakers f3 (-3dB point) to choose a point but personally I'd just start with 80 and experiment from there both up and down. I use 110 personally on all my speakers (4 towers, a smallish center and rear surrounds but all same JBL S5xx series) normally but I have 4 subs and sub localization isn't an issue either. Too high a crossover may lead to sub localization. Or follow one of the "formulas" , YMMV.

Or just tell your avr speakers are full range (large) and use no crossover (i.e. bypass bass management) as you've been thinking about and just setting the low pass on the sub and blend it/supplement it with the speakers, depending how much overlap you want. You could also simply tell your avr you have no sub if you don't want LFE going to the sub, but not sure why you want to do that particularly (when you say sub pre-outs includes LFE).

Hey lovin if ryan here really wants to build a sub solid enough to get him true 15hz extension how crazy expensive are we talking here. Sometimes I wonder if DIY is worth it on building a more capable sub. I kind off wonder if you should just buy sometimes from the ID companies if your not going to save too much off of building a true monster sub

 

[lovinthehd]

Arrrgh! *laughing. Thank you for re-ilustrating how far I have yet to travel, Lovin!

LOL its a long ride, I barely got on the bus compared to many.

Hey lovin if ryan here really wants to build a sub solid enough to get him true 15hz extension how crazy expensive are we talking here. Sometimes I wonder if DIY is worth it on building a more capable sub. I kind off wonder if you should just buy sometimes from the ID companies if your not going to save too much off of building a true monster sub

I think we threw the DIY thing at Ryan early on and he passed. I'm pretty sure I've at least once asked him but maybe I'm slipping LOL. I think its a cost effective way of getting there, I doubt I'd ever go back from diy subs but I'm retired and have the tools and time (not necessarily the skills yet but getting there, my subs were my beginning woodworking projects ).