considering Crown XLS 1002 instead of Outlaw M2200

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Why are you thinking of adding external amps?

Do you have a pre-pro?

Are you upgrading to Atmos and your AVR doesn't have enough amps?

 

[ryanosaur]

By "voicing", I thought you meant amp manufacturers designed their amps to have a certain kind of "sound signature" instead of just amplifier the input signal faithfully. I guessed misunderstood your point then?

As I said, I am likely guilty of clumsy phrasing here too.

To me, the voicing is all in speaker matching, which Dennis guided me on. The BMRs and Sealed Mini-Phils were recommended first for the rig I was considering (7.0 setup, 3 BMRs up front, 2 pr MPs for the Surr. and Rear). Once the Phil-3s entered the equation, he assured me the voicing btw the BMRs and Phil-3s was tight and I wouldn't need to be concerned with that. With the addition of the Phil-3s, I also cut back on 1 pr Mini-Phils and switched to the Affordable Accuracy to eventually move into Atmos usage. They will be my rears for the first 5-6 mos.

 

[lovinthehd]

As to the limiting thing with an amp the simplest of course is the master volume control. To help setup and avoid issues the Crowns also have clipping indicators (-20, -10 from clipping, clpping, thermal compression) as well as a setting (on/off) for their Peakx limiter function.

 

[ryanosaur]

However, if you are looking for a way to rationalize buying external amps all-around

Is any of what we're doing here truly rational?
My wife doesn't think so!
And no... not all around. unless I go Pre-Pro. Not my plan if the 6012 is fixed!

 

[ryanosaur]

Are you upgrading to Atmos and your AVR doesn't have enough amps?

Yes, this is the plan. I'm probably 80/20 Audio/HT. Mainly interested in exploring 5-channel audio, but also interest in exploring the latest in HT. My insistence on the rear channels is for my Video Game habit... they do get used quite a bit in some of my favorite games.

 

[2channel lover]

Admittedly as I researched the forum and tried elsewhere online to find some info to help me understand batter the Crown product... I only got more and more confused. Two different threads here from 2018 seemed to have different messages about the XLI line amplifiers.
For me, I am mostly interested in protecting my budget AND delivering "good, clean, power" to my speakers.
For powering 5 channels, I had been considering the Monolith5, and Emo XPA5. Currently leaning towards the Outlaws, but was reminded by a friend about Crowns. The price is competitive... but research and opinions are inconclusive.

A good deal of talk had been given over to the THD on the Crown XLIs being high at .5, but still technically inaudible, as well as some focus on the IMD (which as I understand, should also not be a real-world concern).

Would greatly appreciate some assistance in navigating this and learning a little more about the technology, please.

Thanks!

I learned more about the Crown pro amps on this site/forum. I'm happy with my M2200s, and would likely do the same thing again in hindsight at least with the monoblocks. But, if the budget is being stretched, you can save (and will) with Crown amps and I don't think you will hear any difference.

 

[KEW]

Is any of what we're doing here truly rational?
My wife doesn't think so!

Shhh! We are trying to believe we make decisions of intellect around here!

Sorry, I edited post #39 to add a few comments. You might scan back over it in case there was something worthy.

In one of your recent posts you commented about the amp making the speaker clip. That is a mis-conception.
It is the amp that clips! The clipped signal that is then sent to the amp is a very difficult signal for a speaker to attempt and can destroy the speaker drivers.
You can fry a speaker by sending too much clean power to it, but there have been some good discussions considering that speakers may be damaged more often by sending clipped signals to the speakers than simply too much power.

 

[everettT]

For me going with an amp that is more than I need comes down to distortion numbers. I may not ever need the power, but what I would use would look more favorable on paper than a closer matched amp for power. Although my new room is big, I certainly could have chosen a model under what I did. Running true full range speakers can be tricky with protection in HT, its nothing for music. . .

 

[ryanosaur]

Shhh! We are trying to believe we make decisions of intellect around here!

Sorry, I edited post #39 to add a few comments. You might scan back over it in case there was something worthy.

In one of your recent posts you commented about the amp making the speaker clip. That is a mis-conception.
It is the amp that clips! The clipped signal that is then sent to the amp is a very difficult signal for a speaker to attempt and can destroy the speaker drivers.
You can fry a speaker by sending too much clean power to it, but there have been some good discussions considering that speakers may be damaged more often by sending clipped signals to the speakers than simply too much power.

I saw the edit, Thank you. I prefer to get away from the river, and take the carriage ride for some good Armagnac.
So over-juicing the speaker doesn't create clipping, but the drivers can distort when overpowered, and if this is done over too long a period, or the power delivered is too high, you will blow a driver/voice coil/etc. Clipping happens in the amp. Do I have that right so far? And yes, the clipped signal from the amp I do understand to be very harmful.
But the amp clipping is a function of signal input to the amp?

 

[KEW]

Your aversion to mixing amps makes no sense to me. I, personally, would stick with all XLS or all Outlaw, just because I want my system to look more cohesive.
However, I would not hesitate to do something like use XLS 2002's for the front 3 and 1002's for the surrounds...or 2200's for the front 3 and 5000 for the surrounds.
The idea that amps may sound audibly differently, but the notion of amps of the same general design from the same manufacturer (such as the XLS series) having any significant differences in the sound character is a stretch. The difference is how much power they produce, so it makes sense to target the speakers that have the most content with a more powerful amp and saving money on the speakers that will not work so hard.
Your Marantz will do a great job of level matching the amps, and that is the only area that I would be concerned about mixing amps.
I really see no need to match the front three (I use external amplification for my front two and the AVR for my center), but why not. However, since there are less expensive multi-channel (and compact!) options like the Outlaw 5000 for the surrounds, take advantage of that. (note that pro audio also offers multi-channel options as well, I just am not so familiar with them).

 

[Danzilla31]

By "voicing", I thought you meant amp manufacturers designed their amps to have a certain kind of "sound signature" instead of just amplifier the input signal faithfully. I guessed misunderstood your point then?

I think what he means PENG is the same thing you guys helped me on when I started learning about amps. Getting matching brand amps say all crowns means your getting the same gain structure on all the amps. Which makes it less work for Audyssey etc to get them all level matched. It can do it but why make it do extra if you don't have too. Like when I was mixing the Emotiva XPA -5 and UPA-7 with the crowns

 

[Danzilla31]

By "voicing", I thought you meant amp manufacturers designed their amps to have a certain kind of "sound signature" instead of just amplifier the input signal faithfully. I guessed misunderstood your point then?

Ryan asked a question to you that's been on my mind as well PENG. What does turning down the gain knob on the crowns do? Is it like a form of volume control. Or does it do something different like I think you briefly touched on

 

[KEW]

I saw the edit, Thank you. I prefer to get away from the river, and take the carriage ride for some good Armagnac.
So over-juicing the speaker doesn't create clipping, but the drivers can distort when overpowered, and if this is done over too long a period, or the power delivered is too high, you will blow a driver/voice coil/etc. Clipping happens in the amp. Do I have that right so far? And yes, the clipped signal from the amp I do understand to be very harmful.
But the amp clipping is a function of signal input to the amp?

I didn't know Armagnac existed! Will have to give it a shot!
You got it, except the amp clipping is a function of the signal being fed into it calling for more power than the amp is capable. So an input signal into a 20WPC amp may result in clipping that would not happen with a 400WPC amp.
Actually more complicated than that because the impedance and phase of the speaker being driven is also a factor in how much power the amp needs to avoid clipping. But I am getting out of my knowledge base here, so am going to shut up on this topic now!

 

[Danzilla31]

Your aversion to mixing amps makes no sense to me. I, personally, would stick with all XLS or all Outlaw, just because I want my system to look more cohesive.
However, I would not hesitate to do something like use XLS 2002's for the front 3 and 1002's for the surrounds...or 2200's for the front 3 and 5000 for the surrounds.
The idea that amps may sound audibly differently, but the notion of amps of the same general design from the same manufacturer (such as the XLS series) having any significant differences in the sound character is a stretch. The difference is how much power they produce, so it makes sense to target the speakers that have the most content with a more powerful amp and saving money on the speakers that will not work so hard.
Your Marantz will do a great job of level matching the amps, and that is the only area that I would be concerned about mixing amps.
I really see no need to match the front three (I use external amplification for my front two and the AVR for my center), but why not. However, since there are less expensive multi-channel (and compact!) options like the Outlaw 5000 for the surrounds, take advantage of that. (note that pro audio also offers multi-channel options as well, I just am not so familiar with them).

I think he meant mixing different brands of amps KEW such as a monolith emotiva and crowns I think it's what I learned from you guys about matching the gain structure on the amps to make setup less complicated not because the amps will sound different sonically. At least thats what I'm picking up on.

 

[snakeeyes]

Think I would want to consider 3 M2200s and if your Marantz can’t run the rest, replace the Marantz with an AVR that can run the rest.

Look, see now I’m helping you fund a new AVR!

 

[ryanosaur]

Your aversion to mixing amps makes no sense to me. I, personally, would stick with all XLS or all Outlaw, just because I want my system to look more cohesive.
However, I would not hesitate to do something like use XLS 2002's for the front 3 and 1002's for the surrounds...or 2200's for the front 3 and 5000 for the surrounds.

@Danzilla31 has the right of it... not mixing brands or significantly different amps... keeping the technology and stats closely matched. (I think I understand the meaning of gain structure, but I couldn't articulate it, so probably I don't.) 2200s and a 5000? not so worried. Emotiva +Monolith, probably wouldn't do it.

 

[KEW]

@Danzilla31 has the right of it... not mixing brands or significantly different amps... keeping the technology and stats closely matched. (I think I understand the meaning of gain structure, but I couldn't articulate it, so probably I don't.) 2200s and a 5000? not so worried. Emotiva +Monolith, probably wouldn't do it.

I think you'd be fine mixing them... but wouldn't do it for (haughty inflection on) aesthetic reasons!

 

[ryanosaur]

All things being equal, what I said towards the end of post 37, is probably my game plan:

If I choose Crown, I can purchase one now and experiment with my L/R BMRs and see how I like it. If I don't, I can send it back (not preferred, but doable) and sit tight for the Phil 3s in a few more months. If I do like it, I can buy a second right away to run my center, and later a third to run the 3s. If I opt to go without in the short term, I still have the option to either:
* Purchase one 5-channel amp. (Simplest solution in terms of managing the system.)
-or-
* Purchase the five M2200s as I have been favoring recently. (Yes, 5 is more complicated than one, but if its five of the same, it is less complicated to manage than 2 or 3 different amps all working at the same time. Agreed?)

In terms of the 5-channel, waiting 5-6 mos might allow me to afford the step up in weight class to the $3000 amps... though I do think I would be fine still with an XPA-5.
Cost-wise, that's already been laid out: $1599 for the XPA5. 1579 for 5 M2200s, and 1197 for three crown xls1502s (regardless of buying one-at a time).
Saving $400 on the Crowns is helpful considering all other expenditures for this project. And some of the decision will come down to my ability to add a dedicated line or two for powering at least the Amps and Subs.

Would like to have a better understanding now of the definition of Gain Structure, as well as help understanding the Gain Control Knobs and how they function. Pointers for a good source of learning as well as personal tidbits are all welcome!

WOOHOO! As I was finishing this... FedEx just dropped off my AVR from its latest warranty call! Wheee!

 

[ryanosaur]

I think you'd be fine mixing them... but wouldn't do it for (haughty inflection on) aesthetic reasons!

Ha! Doesn't need to be beautiful. Function is the rule!!!

 

[PENG]

I think what he means PENG is the same thing you guys helped me on when I started learning about amps. Getting matching brand amps say all crowns means your getting the same gain structure on all the amps. Which makes it less work for Audyssey etc to get them all level matched. It can do it but why make it do extra if you don't have too. Like when I was mixing the Emotiva XPA -5 and UPA-7 with the crowns

Thanks, he has since clarified what he meant..