considering Crown XLS 1002 instead of Outlaw M2200

[ryanosaur]

I have a Crown XLS Series amp and I love it.

THD too high for an audio amp? Nope. You won’t hear it.

Anybody who just looks at the specs and then says that the THD is too high obviously has not owned or tested this amp.

Highly recommended for audio. Some people need to get over their Class D phobia.

@Out-Of-Phase, which model, if I may ask?

 

[KEW]

At the end of the day, Considering the M2200 from Outlaw x5 @$1579 shipped. Or running the XLS1002 bridged... x5 @$1495 shipped. (Yes, I'm certifiably loony... I do not need that much power.)

While I am generally a proponent of pro-amps, if this is the exact choice to be made, I would consider it a no-brainer to go with the M2200's!

There is only 5.5% savings by going with the Crowns. I generally look at pro-amps as affording a 30% or greater reduction in cost (since you are engaging in extreme power overkill with them, it kind of undercuts the savings of going pro-audio).
I worry a little about a fan loading up circuit boards, components with dust which will impede cooling if not periodically cleaned. (I have no idea how legit a concern this is - many home audio AVR's are now using fans).
The Outlaws will better fit the typical aesthetic of a home system, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so you decide if that matters.
There is some question about class D vs AB. I am completely happy with my Crown and Yamaha pro-amps, but I also respect @Irvrobinson and he makes an interesting point about the switching process in a Class D amp being a possible source of distortion. He does not claim that this is truth or fact, merely that it is a possibility, and since Class AB can be had at a reasonable price, he chooses to avoid that possibility by sticking with the very thoroughly established/proven Class AB technology.
Power in moderation - knowing you have more than enough power is reassuring, but there are limits to what is sane (or insane, as you put it). I think the 2200's give you that assurance driving a Phil3 full range (if you off-load the bass to a sub, more so!). A mishap involving a kid (or pet sitting on the remote) maxing out the volume on the bridged Crown is sure to blow the speakers before you can react. With the Outlaw you might have a fighting chance!

The main benefits of Class D I can think of are:
Less power draw (you may want to add special circuits to support 5X M2200 while I think 5 XLS1002's would be fine on one circuit with your AVR).
Heat - Living in the south where AC is the major power expense, it sucks to be adding extra heat into the room.
Weight - If moving or re-configuring things often, the weight of the M2200's is substantially more (though since they are mono-blocks, they are not heavy on a "per unit" basis).
Additional processing and indication of clipping - if you are using for a sub where a filter/crossover would be handy. Indication of clipping on a bridged Crown is redundant - you'll hear that sickening "pop" from your speakers first!

I guess my perspective is the 2200 is a well suited unit to drive a Phil3 in fully competent fashion. To me the argument for Class D pro audio is because you can save some serious coin which can mean audible differences if spent on speakers. If you were using each Crown to drive 2 speakers, you would realize those savings, but using them bridged at 700W into 8 Ohms and 1000W into 4 Ohms is a bit of a waste. I believe in having ample power, but feel the 2200 gets that.
I'd be looking at 3 ea, XLS1502's for $1200 as the alternative to 2200's for $1580.
I would be inclined to avoid the XLS1002 due to the lower S/N ratio. I realize it is still inaudible in most circumstances, however, at some point a decision was made to allow a higher level of noise on the XLS1002, and while it may not be audible, it is excessive by modern home audio standards and begs the question what other corners were cut to target the $300 price. Obvously, "pin-drop silence" is not required for pro audio.
But even at 3 ea 1502's for $1200, you are paying for a ton of power you don't come close to needing (if your speakers are to survive) I feel the 2200's for $1580 are just an exceptional deal. Finding out that they are made in the same facility as Parasound amps and reading @PENG 's comments on the quality of the one he got are just affirmations.

All of that said, I'd be looking at 2 2200's for the Phils and use my AVR for the rest. Or if you are adding atmos, etc to exceed the AVR's capability, add an Outlaw 5000. Timbre matching the front three is important, but I am very comfortable drawing the line at having speakers that match and a common pre-pro. Since the pre-pro manages level matching, I see no reason to use identical amps. However, if you are compelled to use 3 ea 2200 for the front 3, then supplement with AVR/5000, that doesn't seem too wasteful.

 

[lovinthehd]

While I am generally a proponent of pro-amps, if this is the exact choice to be made, I would consider it a no-brainer to go with the M2200's!

There is only 5.5% savings by going with the Crowns. I generally look at pro-amps as affording a 30% or greater reduction in cost (since you are engaging in extreme power overkill with them, it kind of undercuts the savings of going pro-audio).
I worry a little about a fan loading up circuit boards, components with dust which will impede cooling if not periodically cleaned. (I have no idea how legit a concern this is - many home audio AVR's are now using fans).
The Outlaws will better fit the typical aesthetic of a home system, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so you decide if that matters.
There is some question about class D vs AB. I am completely happy with my Crown and Yamaha pro-amps, but I also respect @Irvrobinson and he makes an interesting point about the switching process in a Class D amp being a possible source of distortion. He does not claim that this is truth or fact, merely that it is a possibility, and since Class AB can be had at a reasonable price, he chooses to avoid that possibility by sticking with the very thoroughly established/proven Class AB technology.
Power in moderation - knowing you have more than enough power is reassuring, but there are limits to what is sane (or insane, as you put it). I think the 2200's give you that assurance driving a Phil3 full range (if you off-load the bass to a sub, more so!). A mishap involving a kid (or pet sitting on the remote) maxing out the volume on the bridged Crown is sure to blow the speakers before you can react. With the Outlaw you might have a fighting chance!

The main benefits of Class D I can think of are:
Less power draw (you may want to add special circuits to support 5X M2200 while I think 5 XLS1002's would be fine on one circuit with your AVR).
Heat - Living in the south where AC is the major power expense, it sucks to be adding extra heat into the room.
Weight - If moving or re-configuring things often, the weight of the M2200's is substantially more (though since they are mono-blocks, they are not heavy on a "per unit" basis).
Additional processing and indication of clipping - if you are using for a sub where a filter/crossover would be handy. Indication of clipping on a bridged Crown is redundant - you'll hear that sickening "pop" from your speakers first!

I guess my perspective is the 2200 is a well suited unit to drive a Phil3 in fully competent fashion. To me the argument for Class D pro audio is because you can save some serious coin which can mean audible differences if spent on speakers. If you were using each Crown to drive 2 speakers, you would realize those savings, but using them bridged at 700W into 8 Ohms and 1000W into 4 Ohms is a bit of a waste. I believe in having ample power, but feel the 2200 gets that.
I'd be looking at 3 ea, XLS1502's for $1200 as the alternative to 2200's for $1580.
I would be inclined to avoid the XLS1002 due to the lower S/N ratio. I realize it is still inaudible in most circumstances, however, at some point a decision was made to allow a higher level of noise on the XLS1002, and while it may not be audible, it is excessive by modern home audio standards and begs the question what other corners were cut to target the $300 price. Obvously, "pin-drop silence" is not required for pro audio.
But even at 3 ea 1502's for $1200, you are paying for a ton of power you don't come close to needing (if your speakers are to survive) I feel the 2200's for $1580 are just an exceptional deal. Finding out that they are made in the same facility as Parasound amps and reading @PENG 's comments on the quality of the one he got are just affirmations.

All of that said, I'd be looking at 2 2200's for the Phils and use my AVR for the rest. Or if you are adding atmos, etc to exceed the AVR's capability, add an Outlaw 5000. Timbre matching the front three is important, but I am very comfortable drawing the line at having speakers that match and a common pre-pro. Since the pre-pro manages level matching, I see no reason to use identical amps. However, if you are compelled to use 3 ea 2200 for the front 3, then supplement with AVR/5000, that doesn't seem too wasteful.

Quick analysis/critique is that comparing bridged 1002s x 5 isn't the best comparable setup vs 5 x M2200s. Let alone using bridged amps at all.

 

[lovinthehd]

Oh and in general about Crown, they are among a very few amp brands that have been around so long but probably best known in pro applications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_International

 

[KEW]

Quick analysis/critique is that comparing bridged 1002s x 5 isn't the best comparable setup vs 5 x M2200s. Let alone using bridged amps at all.

Yep, I agree!
That is why I prefaced my post with:

While I am generally a proponent of pro-amps, if this is the exact choice to be made, I would consider it a no-brainer to go with the 2200's!

I think my post made it clear that I see the use of the bridged amps as a glut and potentially a unnecessary risk of damage to the speakers.

I had some concern that he was bridging the amps into Phil3's which IIRC do get down near 4 Ohms at some point, but was impressed to see the Crown was stable into 2 Ohms, which makes it good for 4 Ohms after being bridged.
A common mistake is to take an amp rated at 4 ohms minimum and bridge it (which is no longer rated at 4 Ohms) and fry it driving 4 Ohm speakers, but not an issue with the Crown!

 

[lovinthehd]

Even tho the Crowns are capable into 2ohm or 4ohm bridged, just don't see the advantage vs getting a model further up the line....

 

[Kvn_Walker]

The crown XLS is nice and quiet and you can also control the lights on them so they are off and not shinning in your eyes. The also accept balanced, binding posts connections, AND Speakon connections which is nice.

One thing I recommend is that you consider the power cord length because the one that comes with the amp is probably about 2 feet... not very long.

It's a standard computer type power cord at least. I had plenty of them laying around.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

I at one point had an XLS1000 and two 2200 monoblocks. Honestly I kept the Outlaws more for aesthetic reasons than anything. I would have been just as happy with the XLS had I kept it.

Bridging the Crowns would be such a waste because you'd never use that much power (without running a serious risk of damaging your speakers),and they have more than enough headroom in stereo mode.

 

[ryanosaur]

@KEW: Thank you. Very well said. I appreciate and understand everything: I get it.

And it isn't @everettT's fault. One of my very early queries led somebody here to recommend Crown and Qsc. Admittedly I looked, then wrote it off, until that QSC popped up alongside those Veracitys. Then, in the way of the universe, a 'friend' that does AV installations for venues mentioned the Crown XLI being on sale... thus how a snowball, rolled downhill, destroyed the village.

Anyway... It is clear this isn't the right tool for the job, or at least not in the way I thought.

I'd be looking at 3 ea, XLS1502's for $1200 as the alternative to 2200's for $1580.

Asking from an educational standpoint: Can I run one of these with only one channel driven? Not saying that's what I want to do, just curious. (I had seen some references elsewhere to either running bridged or using a 'dummy load' to not damage the circuits of the amp.)

I guess, at this point, sort of like I asked before:
Is there anything else below (or close to) $1600 that I should consider? Are there any QSCs outside of the cinema line worth considering? If I wanted a single unit, is Emotiva actually a good choice(XPA-5)? (I've pretty much ruled out Monoprice.) And it seems like the next step up in weight class is around 3K for a 5-channel amp.

Again, thank you to everybody for helping out!

 

[everettT]

Asking from an educational standpoint: Can I run one of these with only one channel driven? Not saying that's what I want to do, just curious. (I had seen some references elsewhere to either running bridged or using a 'dummy load' to not damage the circuits of the amp [/QUOTE]

1ch is fine for the amps your looking at.

 

[lovinthehd]

@KEW: Thank you. Very well said. I appreciate and understand everything: I get it.

And it isn't @everettT's fault. One of my very early queries led somebody here to recommend Crown and Qsc. Admittedly I looked, then wrote it off, until that QSC popped up alongside those Veracitys. Then, in the way of the universe, a 'friend' that does AV installations for venues mentioned the Crown XLI being on sale... thus how a snowball, rolled downhill, destroyed the village.

Anyway... It is clear this isn't the right tool for the job, or at least not in the way I thought.

Asking from an educational standpoint: Can I run one of these with only one channel driven? Not saying that's what I want to do, just curious. (I had seen some references elsewhere to either running bridged or using a 'dummy load' to not damage the circuits of the amp.)

I guess, at this point, sort of like I asked before:
Is there anything else below (or close to) $1600 that I should consider? Are there any QSCs outside of the cinema line worth considering? If I wanted a single unit, is Emotiva actually a good choice(XPA-5)? (I've pretty much ruled out Monoprice.) And it seems like the next step up in weight class is around 3K for a 5-channel amp.

Again, thank you to everybody for helping out!

I''ve used just one channel on my Crown XLS amps several times, no worries. I'd think with generally any pro amp with fans it depends on how loud the fan is if placed casually in a normal room (i.e. not an equipment closet or enclosed rack); I have no issues with the Crown XLS in this regard. I've got a Crest pro amp that's quite loud, no way it would ever be used except in a sequestered location from where I listen; I'm pretty sure some of QSC's amps have significant fan noise from what I've read. At one point I considered Emotiva before going with the Crowns, they seem to be pretty well regarded (their amps at least, some of their stuff like pre-pros have been buggy).

 

[KEW]

@KEW: Thank you. Very well said. I appreciate and understand everything: I get it.

And it isn't @everettT's fault. One of my very early queries led somebody here to recommend Crown and Qsc. Admittedly I looked, then wrote it off, until that QSC popped up alongside those Veracitys. Then, in the way of the universe, a 'friend' that does AV installations for venues mentioned the Crown XLI being on sale... thus how a snowball, rolled downhill, destroyed the village.

Anyway... It is clear this isn't the right tool for the job, or at least not in the way I thought.

Asking from an educational standpoint: Can I run one of these with only one channel driven? Not saying that's what I want to do, just curious. (I had seen some references elsewhere to either running bridged or using a 'dummy load' to not damage the circuits of the amp.)

I guess, at this point, sort of like I asked before:
Is there anything else below (or close to) $1600 that I should consider? Are there any QSCs outside of the cinema line worth considering? If I wanted a single unit, is Emotiva actually a good choice(XPA-5)? (I've pretty much ruled out Monoprice.) And it seems like the next step up in weight class is around 3K for a 5-channel amp.

Again, thank you to everybody for helping out!

I am primarily a music guy, which so far has meant 2 channels (2.1). What I would do is get 2 channels of amplification and use the AVR for the rest (I forgot what AVR you are using, but thinking it was a good, solid AVR). The idea is to make sure the Phil3's are fully capable of blowing you out of the room with ample power. I would also want to consider the possibility of running the Phil3's full range without a sub. Their bass is very refined if speaker placement does not put the bass in a bad location for your room! The surrounds and center coupled with a sub are an easy load for the AVR.
So I would feel good about an XLS1502 to take the mains and power the rest using the AVR. If you don't like the look of the XLS, get a pair of 2200's.
What AVR do you have?
If you haven't already, a pair of AC infinity cooling fans for $20 will do more to keep your AVR cool than not using the amp sections.
https://www.amazon.com/AC-Infinity-MULTIFAN-Receiver-Playstation/dp/B00JLV4BWC/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1544387398&sr=8-6&keywords=ac+infinity+fan
I just have mine always run on low speed (which is pretty quiet).

On pro amps and fan noise, I have read a lot about the XLS (and have 2 myself which I have never noticed) and have never read any complaint about fan noise. I'm thinking either it is very quiet or it never comes on under typical use. It is a thermostatically controlled and multi-speed fan .

IMHO, the current offerings of Emotiva fall behind Outlaw for value (and farther behind pro audio amps). That said, Emo still makes solid amps and they are reasonably priced. If Emo makes an amp that fits your needs, go for it! They certainly have a broad selection.

 

[Danzilla31]

@KEW: Thank you. Very well said. I appreciate and understand everything: I get it.

And it isn't @everettT's fault. One of my very early queries led somebody here to recommend Crown and Qsc. Admittedly I looked, then wrote it off, until that QSC popped up alongside those Veracitys. Then, in the way of the universe, a 'friend' that does AV installations for venues mentioned the Crown XLI being on sale... thus how a snowball, rolled downhill, destroyed the village.

Anyway... It is clear this isn't the right tool for the job, or at least not in the way I thought.

Asking from an educational standpoint: Can I run one of these with only one channel driven? Not saying that's what I want to do, just curious. (I had seen some references elsewhere to either running bridged or using a 'dummy load' to not damage the circuits of the amp.)

I guess, at this point, sort of like I asked before:
Is there anything else below (or close to) $1600 that I should consider? Are there any QSCs outside of the cinema line worth considering? If I wanted a single unit, is Emotiva actually a good choice(XPA-5)? (I've pretty much ruled out Monoprice.) And it seems like the next step up in weight class is around 3K for a 5-channel amp.

Again, thank you to everybody for helping out!

I have 2 crown xls 1002's running my front 3 one of them is only using one channel for the center tower it hasn't caused me any problems so far running it this way

 

[Danzilla31]

@KEW: Thank you. Very well said. I appreciate and understand everything: I get it.

And it isn't @everettT's fault. One of my very early queries led somebody here to recommend Crown and Qsc. Admittedly I looked, then wrote it off, until that QSC popped up alongside those Veracitys. Then, in the way of the universe, a 'friend' that does AV installations for venues mentioned the Crown XLI being on sale... thus how a snowball, rolled downhill, destroyed the village.

Anyway... It is clear this isn't the right tool for the job, or at least not in the way I thought.

Asking from an educational standpoint: Can I run one of these with only one channel driven? Not saying that's what I want to do, just curious. (I had seen some references elsewhere to either running bridged or using a 'dummy load' to not damage the circuits of the amp.)

I guess, at this point, sort of like I asked before:
Is there anything else below (or close to) $1600 that I should consider? Are there any QSCs outside of the cinema line worth considering? If I wanted a single unit, is Emotiva actually a good choice(XPA-5)? (I've pretty much ruled out Monoprice.) And it seems like the next step up in weight class is around 3K for a 5-channel amp.

Again, thank you to everybody for helping out!

i jam my theater all the time and I've never had the fans in my crowns kick on once. I have an older Emotiva UPA-7 and like it just fine I sold an Emotiva 5 to get rid of weight since I like the light pro amps but it sounded very good. I thought I had an issue with it being too bright but it turns out that was an issue with Audyssey and it's eq on the highs in my room. When I turned Audyssey off the problem went away. I kind off wished I hadn't sold that amp now. If it sounded good with those issues I wonder what it would've sounded like after. Anyways yeah I can recommend Emotiva that UPA-7 is a good amp and I'm sure there new stuff has only gotten better. Hopefully! Lol

 

[ryanosaur]

Such a rabbit hole!
Speakers were easy.
Subs a little more difficult, but I managed to pick the good ones mostly on my own... then when it came time, everybody was just saying, "you cant go wrong on your list." The Black Friday sales made that moot with Outlaws pricing pushing them easily over the top.
Amps... for something that really should be simple. Total rabbit hole.

OK... Quick breakdown.
Marantz SR6012... if repaired. no complaints. sounds beautiful. 9 channel amp/11 channel processing. 110w two channels driven into 8ohms. I have a top mounted AC Infinity front venting unit already, as I was warned ahead of time that the SR series can run hot.
Starting speakers, 7.0 setup: Philharmonics all the way: BMR L/C/R, Mini-Phil-sealed Surround, Affordable Accuracy Dayton Tweeter Rear.
In 5-6mos: Phil-3 L/R, BMR Center, BMR Surrounds, Mini-Phil-sealed Rears, Affordable Accuracy Dayton Tweeter .4 Atmos.
Subs: Outlaw x-13 x2.
Room size is ~2000'3: 15.25 x 11.5 x sloped 1/2-cathedral clerestory ceiling (not even gonna try re-measuring right now.

Things I think I know: For the cost, either the XPA-5 or M2200s should perform admirably. The XLS1502 in Stereo mode will also perform admirably, but will still over-deliver power, knowing that I really need to clear only 250w for adequate dynamic peaks at "reference levels".

As I understand it... and this is one of the main reason I like the pro amp... is that with the gain control, I can adjust the levels in a way that should prevent excessive power from hitting the speakers unless there is some tampering. (but wouldn't be a problem with the other two amps.) (Or a cage and laser turrets.)

Aesthetics is lowest priority, for an amp. Speakers in Midnight Blue Curly Maple? Different story!

I'm leaning more towards the XLS 1502 right now, especially with this last round of posts from you guys. I might still run the BMRs on amps too. Need a little time to consider. I do still like the idea of keeping any amps matched. Seems more simple from a set-up and management perspective, as well as just having all tech matching if there is any kind of weird voice change between amps and whatnot.
I'm going to give my AVR some work with the rears and Atmos speakers. Its not a lot, and frankly, if I ever switch to a Pre-Pro, powering those should be a no-brainer.

I will likely experiment with my center on the AVR, just to see if I notice any differences in voicing with/without an external amp.

Lastly, buying 5 m2200s only makes sense buying if them all at once. If not, then the savings slip away... maybe I end up just waiting on amps... I think I've heard Outlaw has done Memorial day sales in the past... so maybe that's the time to check back in on amplification. The XLS 1502 doesn't seem like they will go anywhere in the next little bit. And if the BMRs tax the Marantz a little too much, I can always reconsider this plan!

As always, Thank you guys very much for your time and help!!!
Best,
R

 

[PENG]

As I understand it... and this is one of the main reason I like the pro amp... is that with the gain control, I can adjust the levels in a way that should prevent excessive power from hitting the speakers unless there is some tampering.

How do you prevent excessive power.............from hitting the speakers.......yet without inhibiting the ability of the amp to deliver the high dynamic peaks your favorite movies/music may demand from your seating position?

I might still run the BMRs on amps too. Need a little time to consider. I do still like the idea of keeping any amps matched. Seems more simple from a set-up and management perspective, as well as just having all tech matching if there is any kind of weird voice change between amps and whatnot.

"might?" It seems to me your belief in amp "voicing", "matching", are quite entrenched, influenced by what you've read over the years. Unless you have the opportunity to be convinced in properly done DBTs, I bet you would be a prime candidate to hear differences between amps that are otherwise designed for transparency. So my suggestion is that you forget about "might" and just go for amps that you believe are technically matched, and voiced the same.

I will likely experiment with my center on the AVR, just to see if I notice any differences in voicing with/without an external amp.

"voicing" aside, the center channel is most demanding, so it makes no logical sense to power the L,R BMRs with more powerful external amps and the center BMR with the AVR's internal amp.

 

[ryanosaur]

How do you prevent excessive power.............from hitting the speakers.......yet without inhibiting the ability of the amp to deliver the high dynamic peaks your favorite movies/music may demand from your seating position?




"might?" It seems to me your belief in amp "voicing", "matching", are quite entrenched, influenced by what you've read over the years. Unless you have the opportunity to be convinced in properly done DBTs, I bet you would be a prime candidate to hear differences between amps that are otherwise designed for transparency. So my suggestion is that you forget about "might" and just go for amps that you believe are technically matched, and voiced the same.



"voicing" aside, the center channel is most demanding, so it makes no logical sense to power the L,R BMRs with more powerful external amps and the center BMR with the AVR's internal amp.

Hi Peng... Thank you...
Re point 1: this very well be my inexperience here, and if it is, please correct me. The ~450w that the XLS1502 could deliver into a 6ohm load is still somewhat overkill. I think that is agreed upon in this conversation (unless I'm being completely daft). As I understand the gain control (no first-hand, experiential knowledge), I can slightly adjust it downward (say 7-8 instead of 11-and-rip-the-knob-off) and still allow the ~256w peak. Again, as I understand it, I can listen for clipping in the speaker and adjust the gain on the Amp first to avoid damage. I don't think my AVR is powerful enough on its own, especially when running 7channels, to drive good speakers to clipping.
Please correct me if this is a poor or wrong assumption.

Re: points 2and 3: Since all of my knowledge about Amplification can barely fill a shot glass [read: thimble] and, to borrow from philosophy, is a priori / theoretical, I am doing the best I can to assimilate everything I've seen here on the forum, as well as other discussions. I absolutely accept that good amplification shouldn't affect the sound, regardless of contrary claims by some. I've seen you write that more times than I can count, Peng. I cannot, nor will I even try, to argue differently. Promise!. What occurs to me though, is that mixing different amplifiers needlessly complicates the system. So my usage of "voicing" and "matching" may be clumsy, yet the root of what I am looking to achieve is maintaining balance between the 5 main speakers I will be using as I explore 5-channel audio. I know I need to take a minimum of one pair of speakers off my AVR if I install Atmos in 5-6mos time. If I choose Crown, I can purchase one now and experiment with my L/R BMRs and see how I like it. If I don't, I can send it back (not preferred, but doable) and sit tight for the Phil 3s in a few more months. If I do like it, I can buy a second right away to run my center, and later a third to run the 3s. If I opt to go without in the short term, I still have the option to either:
* Purchase one 5-channel amp. (Simplest solution in terms of managing the system.)
-or-
* Purchase the five M2200s as I have been favoring recently. (Yes, 5 is more complicated than one, but if its five of the same, it is less complicated to manage than 2 or 3 different amps all working at the same time. Agreed?)

I hope this clarifies my logic a little bit and makes more sense.
Cheers!

 

[PENG]

Hi Peng... Thank you...
Re point 1: this very well be my inexperience here, and if it is, please correct me. The ~450w that the XLS1502 could deliver into a 6ohm load is still somewhat overkill. I think that is agreed upon in this conversation (unless I'm being completely daft). As I understand the gain control (no first-hand, experiential knowledge), I can slightly adjust it downward (say 7-8 instead of 11-and-rip-the-knob-off) and still allow the ~256w peak. Again, as I understand it, I can listen for clipping in the speaker and adjust the gain on the Amp first to avoid damage. I don't think my AVR is powerful enough on its own, especially when running 7channels, to drive good speakers to clipping.
Please correct me if this is a poor or wrong assumption.

Re: points 2and 3: Since all of my knowledge about Amplification can barely fill a shot glass [read: thimble] and, to borrow from philosophy, is a priori / theoretical, I am doing the best I can to assimilate everything I've seen here on the forum, as well as other discussions. I absolutely accept that good amplification shouldn't affect the sound, regardless of contrary claims by some. I've seen you write that more times than I can count, Peng. I cannot, nor will I even try, to argue differently. Promise!. What occurs to me though, is that mixing different amplifiers needlessly complicates the system. So my usage of "voicing" and "matching" may be clumsy, yet the root of what I am looking to achieve is maintaining balance between the 5 main speakers I will be using as I explore 5-channel audio. I know I need to take a minimum of one pair of speakers off my AVR if I install Atmos in 5-6mos time. If I choose Crown, I can purchase one now and experiment with my L/R BMRs and see how I like it. If I don't, I can send it back (not preferred, but doable) and sit tight for the Phil 3s in a few more months. If I do like it, I can buy a second right away to run my center, and later a third to run the 3s. If I opt to go without in the short term, I still have the option to either:
* Purchase one 5-channel amp. (Simplest solution in terms of managing the system.)
-or-
* Purchase the five M2200s as I have been favoring recently. (Yes, 5 is more complicated than one, but if its five of the same, it is less complicated to manage than 2 or 3 different amps all working at the same time. Agreed?)

I hope this clarifies my logic a little bit and makes more sense.
Cheers!

By "voicing", I thought you meant amp manufacturers designed their amps to have a certain kind of "sound signature" instead of just amplifier the input signal faithfully. I guessed misunderstood your point then?

 

[KEW]

"voicing" aside, the center channel is most demanding, so it makes no logical sense to power the L,R BMRs with more powerful external amps and the center BMR with the AVR's internal amp.

That is a good point.
I suggested powering the L&R externally because my conceptual model is having a splendid stereo setup that expands into a competent HT setup for those rare occasions I watch/host a movie. However, as you point out, the Center is the most demanding (assuming you are engaging a sub on the front 3, which will most likely be the case). I have never had any indication that my cnter is underpowered running it from the AVR, but if I was going for full reference, that could be a different story!
In light of this, I think either 3 ea. Outlaws or 2 ea. 1502's makes sense.

Such a rabbit hole!
Speakers were easy.
Subs a little more difficult, but I managed to pick the good ones mostly on my own... then when it came time, everybody was just saying, "you cant go wrong on your list." The Black Friday sales made that moot with Outlaws pricing pushing them easily over the top.
Amps... for something that really should be simple. Total rabbit hole.

OK... Quick breakdown.
Marantz SR6012... if repaired. no complaints. sounds beautiful. 9 channel amp/11 channel processing. 110w two channels driven into 8ohms. I have a top mounted AC Infinity front venting unit already, as I was warned ahead of time that the SR series can run hot.
Starting speakers, 7.0 setup: Philharmonics all the way: BMR L/C/R, Mini-Phil-sealed Surround, Affordable Accuracy Dayton Tweeter Rear.
In 5-6mos: Phil-3 L/R, BMR Center, BMR Surrounds, Mini-Phil-sealed Rears, Affordable Accuracy Dayton Tweeter .4 Atmos.
Subs: Outlaw x-13 x2.
Room size is ~2000'3: 15.25 x 11.5 x sloped 1/2-cathedral clerestory ceiling (not even gonna try re-measuring right now.

Things I think I know: For the cost, either the XPA-5 or M2200s should perform admirably. The XLS1502 in Stereo mode will also perform admirably, but will still over-deliver power, knowing that I really need to clear only 250w for adequate dynamic peaks at "reference levels".

As I understand it... and this is one of the main reason I like the pro amp... is that with the gain control, I can adjust the levels in a way that should prevent excessive power from hitting the speakers unless there is some tampering. (but wouldn't be a problem with the other two amps.) (Or a cage and laser turrets.)

Aesthetics is lowest priority, for an amp. Speakers in Midnight Blue Curly Maple? Different story!

I'm leaning more towards the XLS 1502 right now, especially with this last round of posts from you guys. I might still run the BMRs on amps too. Need a little time to consider. I do still like the idea of keeping any amps matched. Seems more simple from a set-up and management perspective, as well as just having all tech matching if there is any kind of weird voice change between amps and whatnot.
I'm going to give my AVR some work with the rears and Atmos speakers. Its not a lot, and frankly, if I ever switch to a Pre-Pro, powering those should be a no-brainer.

I will likely experiment with my center on the AVR, just to see if I notice any differences in voicing with/without an external amp.

Lastly, buying 5 m2200s only makes sense buying if them all at once. If not, then the savings slip away... maybe I end up just waiting on amps... I think I've heard Outlaw has done Memorial day sales in the past... so maybe that's the time to check back in on amplification. The XLS 1502 doesn't seem like they will go anywhere in the next little bit. And if the BMRs tax the Marantz a little too much, I can always reconsider this plan!

As always, Thank you guys very much for your time and help!!!
Best,
R

Well, the truth of it is you've already made the important decisions and have great speakers and subs!
The reason amps is a hard decision is because they don't matter nearly so much!
Nobody is telling you to go out and listen to amps like we did with speakers or that it depends on your subjective evaluation of the amp the way we did for speakers.
I'm not going to say that there is no absolutely audible difference between amps because I have never been in a properly run double-blind study involving amps. There have been several reports of double blind studies which support the idea that well designed amps all sound the same, but I will take a conservative approach and say - if there is a difference, it pales in comparison to speakers and room influences - I don't think anyone argues that!
In my experience all amps sound the same, but that could be because I have not compared the right amps or my ears are not properly trained to tell the difference. Either way, I have decided I do not care! Accordingly, once I determine how much power is needed I make my amp decisions based on subjective measures such as looks or my perception of quality or durability. Here, maybe reading a review and being empathetic to someone's experience with a piece of hardware as reflected in a review has a fair amount of weight as I don't have hard data to really differentiate between how happy I will be with a specific amp. Certainly reading PENG's thread on his take on the Outlaw 2200 makes it a desirable amp especially since he is someone I know and trust with expertise in the area!

Here's what I would normally suggest in your situation:
Use AVR with 7.2 system, if power is wanting, or you want to remove any doubt (which is why many of us end up with external amps ... after we have spent money on everything else),buy 3 2200's or 2 1502's (and let the second drive the center, alone ... you can bridge it if you want, knowing the trade-offs).
When you add the 4 atmos speakers, I think your SR6012 will probably drive the surrounds and atmos fine by itself. But if you decide you want more, I would consider adding 2 more 1502's or an Outlaw 5000 to split the surround and atmos channels between the AVR and amps.

In his review of one of the newer D&M models, Gene mentions that the ECO mode may compromise the sound in some way. My thinking is if no one has yet made a definitive statement with measurable and shown as audible issues, I would be willing to let my surrounds or atmos (which I don't actually have) incur that risk for the temperature improvement. D & M are competent enough not to introduces an ECO mode without a comprehensive assessment of the effect on sound quality. However, if you are looking for a way to rationalize buying external amps all-around, there you go. I would lean towards 2 5000's (after your solution for the front 3) just to reduce the number of cords/boxes.

I understand that after your disappointing experience with the Marantz, you may be a bit more concerned about your amp choices than you normally might, but from my perspective as someone who tries to offer advice on gear, your system is already complete as a wonderful system. Once your Marantz is back, you will have a great sounding system, which will get even better when you get the Phil3's! Worrying over external amps is nit-picky chicken poop stuff*! ... but many of us are OCD enough to go there with you!

* You could make some mistake buying say a Pyle amp (if they make external amps) but you are trying to determine the best between great options - there are no losers among the options you have considered!

If you are getting a headache over this, just kick back and "drink deep" of your BMR's in stereo 2.2 for awhile!
Hell, tell the Marantz setup that you don't have a center or surrounds and watch a movie in 2.2 (with a phantom center). For me, a pair of BMR's and X13's are one hell of a good HT experience (and it is fun, with great speakers, to see how well they cover the center channel)! When you add the extra channels, it will further enhance your system, but there is something to be said for phasing in the "goody" of you new system over time. Kind of like going straight from rot-gut to Cognac vs working your way through some good Brandy on the way to the Cognac!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is 3db SNR a big difference? More so than 6dB?

It might be a big difference on paper, but you won't hear any difference in real life.