Yamaha Owners’ Thread (AVR, Pre-pro, Amp)

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just got two vtf3 mk5s few weeks ago n they’re awesome but I would assume your saying to just turn the auto eq off? I’m planning on getting a mic and rew here shortly but have never used it. I’m guessing it’s kinda difficult to use at first

I'm sure it will be frustrating at first, just like most things in life that require actual learning.

As for EQ (auto and manual), most audiophiles would agree that the bass/subwoofer (below 200Hz) is most likely to get the most benefit.

Some people feel that they do get benefit from a flat in-room response (20Hz-20kHz),some don't.

So if you are willing to go through the process of learning and frustration, you can see for yourself if EQ is the right thing for you.

I'm just saying many audiophiles don't like the idea of any kind of EQ.

The goal is to achieve the best sound you can hear.

If you get that from having a flat in-room response, then that's the right thing for you.

If getting a flat in-room response for the bass and other frequencies (20Hz-20kHz) makes the sound less enjoyable or less natural or less lifelike to you, then turn off all EQ like some of us do.

 

[Reckel]

I'm sure it will be frustrating at first, just like most things in life that require actual learning.

As for EQ (auto and manual), most audiophiles would agree that the bass/subwoofer (below 200Hz) is most likely to get the most benefit.

Some people feel that they do get benefit from a flat in-room response (20Hz-20kHz),some don't.

So if you are willing to go through the process of learning and frustration, you can see for yourself if EQ is the right thing for you.

I'm just saying many audiophiles don't like the idea of any kind of EQ.

The goal is to achieve the best sound you can hear.

If you get that from having a flat in-room response, then that's the right thing for you.

If getting a flat in-room response for the bass and other frequencies (20Hz-20kHz) makes the sound less enjoyable or less natural or less lifelike to you, then turn off all EQ like some of us do.

Ok thx man. Yes I’ll learn n be frustrated I’m sure. Don’t be mad when I’m back asking a bunch of questions

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ok thx man. Yes I’ll learn n be frustrated I’m sure. Don’t be mad when I’m back asking a bunch of questions

@PENG is one of the Jedi when it comes to in-room measurements.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ah, the Far East audiophiles.

The enemy of American EE's. (especially over on that other forum, H2 )

If the interior cleanliness of pre-pros from DataSat and Theta Digital represents "American EE" and the interior mess of the Denon AVP-A1HDCI represents "Far East Audiophiles", then I would say they are definitely enemies.

 

[M Code]

It's Sound United, LLC, not United Audio- that was a brand in the '80s and into the '90s.

Thanx for the correction...
Actually United Audio was the importer for DUAL turntables from Germany.

WRT your list of AVR vs components- the cost to ship heavy separates to the US is one of the reasons they aren't as popular here- the cost to ship adds nothing to performance, so that can be a deal breaker. I need to ship a preamp to California and at 25 lb, it will cost over $58 because I don't ship in high enough volume to get the discounts. The fact that these preamps/pre/pros don't have the inputs they need (IMO) has apparently been lost on the manufacturers. OTOH, they don't exist to cater to my wants.

In shipping hifi components from the Far East to North America, weight is not that big of a factor since the majority are shipped by ocean container where shipping cube(box size) is the primary concern. Key point is how many units can go into a 40' container..

While it makes financial sense for a person building a two channel system to buy an AVR, the complexity of the innards and their sensitivity to voltage spikes makes it a bit riskier to the longevity of the system or, at least, that part of it. I think preamps and integrated amps need more optical and digital coax inputs- it just makes sense.

Not major factor since in their primary markets there are fewer source options.

Inkel has been around for a long time- first time I heard of them was in the '80s, when one of our reps came in to offer the Sherwood line, which had been resurrected and was being constructed by Inkel, That stuff worked pretty well, but the control shafts were plastic and would occasionally break off. I don't remember any other reliability issues.

Inkel has a long history, having >100 Inkel brand audio stores in Korea. They later bought Sherwood(Chicago USA) and began importing Sherwood audio products into North America since their audio engineering group was the most advanced in Korea. They built a reasonable audio biz in home audio but did most of their sales in aftermarket car audio in the 80s, mainly add-on amplifiers. Then they hired a very experienced product development guy(from Marantz) and they organized a specialized AVR development team. Under his direction, in the early 90s' Inkel designed/built AVRs for Kenwood, Marantz, Denon, Sony, Teac, NAD, Harman/Kardon, JBL and in fact was building 70% of all of the Dolby Surround AVRs sold worldwide. This AV development team brought many 1sts' to the audio industry including the 1st DTS AVR, 1st home theater in the box systems. @ the time they were the biggest global customer for TI, Motorola, Analog Device and Crystal/Cirrus Logic of audio DSPs and DACs. I recall their annual AVR unit production was 3.5 million units. Their basic MO was to develop an advanced AVR platform using the latest audio DSPs and DACs. Release it in the 1st year under the Sherwood brand, then in the 2nd year offer the basic electrical AVR platform to the other brands but develop unique front panel ID appearances for these.

Just my $0.02...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The population of Asia may be 4.5 Billion, but only a small percentage has enough money to even think about buying this stuff.

What, you're saying they can't have Dolby Atmos systems on their little boats and 200 SF apartments ?

 

[PENG]

The market in Asia is mostly separate components, there is the very high-end segment mainly in Japan but now slowly growing in China due to the an increasing number of upper-class rich guys.. But the main reasons are smaller houses/apartments and a simple 2-channel system works just fine, tuner sales exist but are low in numbers compared to the sale of integrated amplifiers...

Just my $0.02...

I know in Hong Kong there used to be (may still be there) a tall building in which there were multiple floors of high end hifi stores, I doubt there is even one of such building in NA. Not in Canada anyway.. So I do believe some of the audiophiles there are much crazier than others elsewhere in the world.

 

[PENG]

That A23 looks like a nice power amp. The only thing that bothers me is the internal heat sinks. I'd rather have them placed on the outside of the enclosure to keep the heat out the internal space. That provides better longevity of other electronic parts.

My A21 is built like a tank, looks indestructible, the A23 would be very similar just smaller so I don't think heat would be an issue at all. They do run quite warm as they are typically biased to operate in class A for the first few watts.

 

[M Code]

I know in Hong Kong there used to be (may still be there) a tall building in which there were multiple floors of high end hifi stores, I doubt there is even one of such building in NA. Not in Canada anyway.. So I do believe some of the audiophiles there are much crazier than others elsewhere in the world.

As U know Hong Kong is made of multiple islands... On Kowloon, where the ocean cruisers tie up there are large tall buildings beside the harbor of many, many floors. In the basement was a jumbo Toy R Us, but as U went up the floors there were many restaurants of all different cuisines even an Oklahoma SteakHouse... High end jewelry stores, fur salons and hi-end audio shops.. Of all the places, I traveled in the Far East Hong Kong was my favorite I was there many times, I think because english was so prevalent it was easier to communicate with local people... But now this has changed a great deal now that mainland communist China have taken Hong Kong back from the Brits... I know many Hong Kong chinese actually moved to Canada, cities of Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto..

To me the most interesting place in the Far East is in Tokyo, Japan, the Akihabra.. Like a 5 block square district, all electronic parts, software, multi-media and audio/video products specialists.

Just my $0.02...

 

[highfigh]

What, you're saying they can't have Dolby Atmos systems on their little boats and 200 SF apartments ?

No, I'm saying that much of Asia is very poor.

 

[highfigh]

I know in Hong Kong there used to be (may still be there) a tall building in which there were multiple floors of high end hifi stores, I doubt there is even one of such building in NA. Not in Canada anyway.. So I do believe some of the audiophiles there are much crazier than others elsewhere in the world.

Hong Kong also has a high concentration of incredibly wealthy people who are very interested in outdoing their friends with some of their possessions. They also have more 'super rich' people than any other city.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/06/investing/world-richest-people-cities/index.html

https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/article/2161211/crazy-rich-asians-hong-kong-and-what-they-spend-big-cars-collectibles

 

[highfigh]

That A23 looks like a nice power amp. The only thing that bothers me is the internal heat sinks. I'd rather have them placed on the outside of the enclosure to keep the heat out the internal space. That provides better longevity of other electronic parts.

Mine doesn't run very hot and as long as the heat sinks do their job, the output transistors won't die from thermal overload.

 

[PENG]

Mine doesn't run very hot and as long as the heat sinks do their job, the output transistors won't die from thermal overload.

My A21 runs warm but not hot so I would expect the A23 warmer, but "warm" is a relative term. It really doesn't make my KEFs sound any better than the x3400h and x4400h, it is highly possible those are AVRs on the right hand side of the point of rapidly diminishing returns curve, and your 2313 may just happen to be on the other side.

 

[highfigh]

My A21 runs warm but not hot so I would expect the A23 warmer, but "warm" is a relative term. It really doesn't make my KEFs sound any better than the x3400h and x4400h, it is highly possible those are AVRs on the right hand side of the point of rapidly diminishing returns curve, and your 2313 may just happen to be on the other side.

I thought the 2313 sounded great until I installed the Parasound and I would still consider the sound to be very good, but not the same. I was actually impressed with the sound of the Denon AVRs I had but when I decided it that I needed a two channel line to sell and because I wanted to listen to vinyl again, I decided on Parasound because it offers great performance for the money. None of the integrated amps that are available from the manufacturers I sell have what I want (more inputs, better phono section, DAC and a bit more power) and for less that what the Yamaha integrated costs, Parasound has an integrated that does more, is more powerful and even their separates could be used with their stand-alone phono preamp and I bet it would be an interesting comparison. The new P6 has several updates, it won't have the volume control problems and if it's matched with the A21+ puts out 300W/channel @ 8 Ohms, vs 250W/channel for the old A21, for less than half of the price of the Yamaha integrated output's 160W/channel (IIRC). The Yamaha's phono section is a bit quieter, however.

The Denon still sounds good in the current system, but there's no way to do a direct comparison because it's now connected to a pair of JBL from the '70s.

 

[PENG]

I thought the 2313 sounded great until I installed the Parasound and I would still consider the sound to be very good, but not the same. I was actually impressed with the sound of the Denon AVRs I had but when I decided it that I needed a two channel line to sell and because I wanted to listen to vinyl again, I decided on Parasound because it offers great performance for the money. None of the integrated amps that are available from the manufacturers I sell have what I want (more inputs, better phono section, DAC and a bit more power) and for less that what the Yamaha integrated costs, Parasound has an integrated that does more, is more powerful and even their separates could be used with their stand-alone phono preamp and I bet it would be an interesting comparison. The new P6 has several updates, it won't have the volume control problems and if it's matched with the A21+ puts out 300W/channel @ 8 Ohms, vs 250W/channel for the old A21, for less than half of the price of the Yamaha integrated output's 160W/channel (IIRC). The Yamaha's phono section is a bit quieter, however.

The Denon still sounds good in the current system, but there's no way to do a direct comparison because it's now connected to a pair of JBL from the '70s.

Imo the A23 is a better amp that any of the Yamaha integrated based on specs, and I suspect it uses few ICs and have more direct audio path (direct couple etc..), not that it would make any difference to sound quality audibly speaking, but it makes it by definition closer to audiophile class. It also runs in class A for the first 2-4 watts. So if you listen to 75 dB avg with 90 dB peaks like I do, sitting within 10 ft you can almost pretend it is a class A amp, based on 4 ohm 90 dB/2.83V speakers. I have no idea why parasound would not list that little gem for $1,500 or more. My only beef with them is that they incorrectly (inflated) specified the transformer kVA rating and not bothered to fix it even after I personally reported it a few years ago. I wish I had bought it instead of the huge A21 that is taking up so much shelf space for no reason.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Imo the A23 is a better amp that any of the Yamaha integrated based on specs, and I suspect it uses few ICs and have more direct audio path (direct couple etc..),not that it would make any difference to sound quality audibly speaking, but it makes it by definition closer to audiophile class. It also runs in class A for the first 2-4 watts. So if you listen to 75 dB avg with 90 dB peaks like I do, sitting within 10 ft you can almost pretend it is a class A amp, based on 4 ohm 90 dB/2.83V speakers. I have no idea why parasound would not list that little gem for $1,500 or more. My only beef with them is that they incorrectly (inflated) specified the transformer kVA rating and not bothered to fix it even after I personally reported it a few years ago. I wish I had bought it instead of the huge A21 that is taking up so much shelf space for no reason.

Yes, the A23 does look impressive.

My old Classé CA-200 was impressive too.

But, my Denon X4400H AVR sounds every bit as good as my old Classé amp from 1998. Probably better, it has Audyssey.

 

[PENG]

Yes, the A23 does look impressive.

View attachment 26763

My old Classé CA-200 was impressive too.

View attachment 26764

But, my Denon X4400H AVR sounds every bit as good as my old Classé amp from 1998. Probably better, it has Audyssey.

The Classé has a cleaner looking layout and has many smaller caps in parallel vs the Halo's larger ones X2 only. That does not always translate into better noise and power specs, more an academic advantage, as practically speaking the CT-200 is comparable to the A21.

As you know, I compared the X4400H, X3400H side by side with the A21, and was happy with all 3, the A21 sounded just as good to me, even when connected to it's own separate class A Cambridge Audio preamp. So in the case, your finding concurs with mine. The power amps obviously are superior if one needs 3 to 6 dB more spl, all else being equal.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

The Classé has a cleaner looking layout and has many smaller caps in parallel vs the Halo's larger ones X2 only. That does not always translate into better noise and power specs, more an academic advantage, as practically speaking the CT-200 is comparable to the A21.

As you know, I compared the X4400H, X3400H side by side with the A21, and was happy with all 3, the A21 sounded just as good to me, even when connected to it's own separate class A Cambridge Audio preamp. So in the case, your finding concurs with mine. The power amps obviously are superior if one needs 3 to 6 dB more spl, all else being equal.

“In the CA-200, a distributed power reservoir design replaces each capacitor unit with six smaller 4700µF devices connected in parallel. This technique is claimed to deliver a lower ESR (electrical series resistance) over a wider frequency range, particularly at high frequencies. The CA-200 contains a total of 24 such capacitors.”

 

[PENG]

“In the CA-200, a distributed power reservoir design replaces each capacitor unit with six smaller 4700µF devices connected in parallel. This technique is claimed to deliver a lower ESR (electrical series resistance) over a wider frequency range, particularly at high frequencies. The CA-200 contains a total of 24 such capacitors.”

That's exactly the "academic" advantage I referred to. Academic or not, it works for me.. Bryston takes that same approach too.

 

[highfigh]

Imo the A23 is a better amp that any of the Yamaha integrated based on specs, and I suspect it uses few ICs and have more direct audio path (direct couple etc..),not that it would make any difference to sound quality audibly speaking, but it makes it by definition closer to audiophile class. It also runs in class A for the first 2-4 watts. So if you listen to 75 dB avg with 90 dB peaks like I do, sitting within 10 ft you can almost pretend it is a class A amp, based on 4 ohm 90 dB/2.83V speakers. I have no idea why parasound would not list that little gem for $1,500 or more. My only beef with them is that they incorrectly (inflated) specified the transformer kVA rating and not bothered to fix it even after I personally reported it a few years ago. I wish I had bought it instead of the huge A21 that is taking up so much shelf space for no reason.

You have a lot of headroom- that may not be audible with most newer music, but at 1W average output, a 30dB peak will be more realistic with yours than with an AVR rated for 150W @ 8 Ohms, 1Khz.

I suspect they price it so it will sell in larger numbers, thereby getting their brand into more systems.

At 75dB with your speakers, it should be operating in ClassA.

Have you seen the new P6 preamp?

http://www.parasound.com/p6.php